Banking on Digital Growth
Banking on Digital Growth

Episode · 2 months ago

227) #ExponentialInsights - Giving Young Account Holders a Reason to Be Loyal


As financial services decentralize, loyalty from young account holders continues to wane.

So, what can banks and credit unions do to fix the disconnect in the generation gap and attract Gen Z and Gen Alpha members?

Mart Vos, Founder and CEO of Eko Investments, tells us why he thinks young account holders are breaking away from traditional financial services and how FIs can bring them back.

Join us as we discuss:

- The perception gap in financial services and younger generations (5:15)

- Pattern matching the younger generation’s investing behavior (14:48)

- Using a predictive model for future opportunities (21:15)

Check out these resources we mentioned during the podcast:

- Mart Vos


- Eko Investments

You can find this interview and many more by subscribing to Banking on Digital Growth on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, or here.

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for Banking on Digital Growth in your favorite podcast player.

What do we need to do as a Financial Situation Bank? Yes, check loans, check investments, check. We do all of them, but it's not about making it better. was making it was. It was about checking the book. You're listening to banking on digital growth with James Robert Lay, a podcast that empowers financial brand marketing, sales and leadership teams to maximize their digital growth potential by generating ten times more loans and deposits. Today's episode is part of the exponential insight series, where James Robert Lay interviews the industry's top marketing, sales and FINTECH leaders, sharing practical wisdom to exponentially elevate you and your team. Let's get into the show. Greetings in Hello, I am James Robert Lay and welcome to episode to seven of the banking on digital growth podcast. Today's episode is part of the Exponent shill insight series and I'm excited to welcome Mark Voss to the show. Mark is the founder and CEO of Echo, who is making it possible for every financial brand to offer a digital investment solution. They call this investments as a service, and mark believes every bank and Credit Union can make the investing experience truly personal for their account holders. Welcome to the show, Martin. It is so good to share time with you today. Buddy. It's a real pleastion to be here. Before we get into talking about what you see as the future of financial services, fin techs, how it all intersects Um, what's good for you right now personally professionally? It's your pick to get started. I mean in Netherlands, like I'm I'm from the Netherlands. I mean the home I grew up in. It's a dust countryside. I live in New York and it's the exact opposite of New York. There's there's more cows around me them people, and that's nice for a change. So you know, that's that's pretty good. That is that is good. And when we first connected I was sharing how my my family came over from the Netherlands to settle, Settle Netherland, Texas Um and it is such an interesting story. Goes back to the late eight hundreds. So there's definitely a connection there. And speaking of other connections, one of the big problems that you've connected Um, looking at a financial services and financial brands is how they are struggling two attract and even keep younger members, younger account holders. What are you seeing and how are you connecting the dots and, more importantly, where might there be a disconnect between leadership and then the younger account holders from your point of view? Right, yeah, this is this is basically the the most important thing that I was trying to...

...solve when I started, I started my company. Um, look, you know, to me I was almost a little bit coming in like an like an outsider. Um, I. I don't necessarily have a banking background. Um, and when I really got interested in infinancial institutions, in crediting its original banks, you know, I just saw there was there was so much wrong, wrong to it. And then, basically, you know, I went around asking all my friends, like, you know, where do you bank, and I heard so often the same story, saying, like, you know, I was banking origional, like my parents bank down this credit union, but you know, they they didn't really like offered the products that that that I want, that I need. And you know, they're not loyal anymore. Like I think people my generation, there's a lot, there are a lot less loyal to their financial institution than than all the generations. I'm I'm twenty eight, but if my financial institutions is not offering me what I want, now, you know, one Google search away there's a hundred alternatives and I do believe, you know, every finance institution has. They have such a benefit that, you know, this is still the first place that that that that everyone, like every generation, thinks about when they want these services. But if they don't offer it, yeah, you know, it's easy to find somewhere else. So I kept hearing that in that story solve that, I want to I want to fix that because obviously you know, I don't have to explain how how important it is to keep your younger younger clients. If you can't, then eventually it will be the end. It will and I think what we're seeing right now is traditionally what were the days of the P F, I. The primary financial institution. That whole idea has essentially been turned upside down and transformed because of the centralization and we see the rise of Fintech, we see the rise of neo banks. Neo Banks are continue to expand. Fintech continues to expand at an exponential rate. Globally where traditional incumbent financial brands, banks, credit unions, however we want to call that, they're they're contracting, Um, and so it's it's almost like this inverse going on. What is it that maybe the Fintech and the NEO banks are doing to bridge this? I would maybe call it a perception gap. Is it even a perception gap, Um, when it comes to a younger generation looking for financial services? Right, so I think first of all, so what's the what the Fintechs are doing? I think first of all, they I think they pray every day that the financial institutions are not going to innovate, Um, because this is the whole reasons they exist.

I think the second of all, you know, they just they can adapt. They can adapt fast. You know, if any any any FINTECH that I've been looking into that is doing very similar products, then that their banks of you know, they maybe do loans, they maybe do investments, they maybe do your banking with neo banks and banking, they have a very short like feedback loop. Uh. They that very fast. Um. And you know, the word conservative is kind of banned. Uh, and I know that's a very far bridge from the traditional financial institution. And you know, there's definitely a middle ground effect what financial is to really brings the trust. You know, they've been around four hundred, fifty years. You know we're not gonna like. You know, we're gonna stay UH and and many fintechs they don't Um. So I think I'm really looking for that, that that that middle ground and thinking every and every innovation you have one extreme, then you have ann that streams trying to complate so much, and then eventually you will find you you will find the middle. So I think if financial institutions seen seen it more and more. You know, they have new job titles like digital transformation director or or chief experience officer, where they are constantly looking at what their clients, the users, their members want. So I I think that's that's the start, and this is what fin techs do all the time. I think this is what traditional financial institutions don't do enough. But I'm seeing them like kind of reach like a middle point. Yeah, and and I it's that. It's that middle ground I think that we're all trying to dance around, we're all trying to land on because, as as I predict, will probably see over the next three to five years, with the economic environment that we are moving into, will probably see some of the neos and some of the intech there. It's already happening. They're losing funding, some of them are already folding, but that's that complete failure that spurred the industry along as a whole, and I think it's easy to sit in the seat of an incumbent saying, ha ha, I told you so, but at the same time that is not going to stop Um. We're going to see continued innovation and I think what you said before. It's the it's the outsider perspective. Um. I recently had Una on, who's a CO founder at Lance dot APP, talking about her journey to launch a neo for the freelancer industry, and she said it was just not having the traditional perspective that has allowed her and her team to do what they've been able to do in a relatively short period of time. They might not have the hundred fifty years of legacy, but they are establishing a tremendous amount of trust in a very niche market. Um. Why do you feel that this is the case, that the the outside perspective spurs on the innovation and the growth, if you...

...will, for the future. Where the internal incumbent perspective it does. It is rooted in trust, it is rooted in legacy. But let's talk about the outside perspective first, because, I mean that's essentially what you're bringing here, is is you're seeing things differently than what others are able to see. Yeah, no, I think exactly exactly that. So now what we're doing, Um, we offer a digital investment product. So basically what we're saying to two clients, the other two two, two banks for two credits. You're saying, Hey, UM, look, you've been offering investments for the last thirty years. Five on either. You're not offering them a fire financial fire suit. And what we see is that when you actually offered five, uh digital solutions, like directly on your on your existing online platform, you can convert like fourteen times more people, fourteen times. And you know this. This is a this is a good story now, but the first time I toldally started like two and all three years ago, when I started, when I started the business, no one was believing this, especially in banking. I said, you know, we we already have someone. We already have someone who takes care of this. Like we have a financial advice you know, it's been going well for many years and the idea was really we're checking a box, like what do we need to do? As Ay, what do we need to do as a financial situation banking? Yes, check loans, check investments. Check. We do all of them, but it's not about making it better. It was making it was it was about checking the box. And you know, Um, when we started to the product, we really believe if you have a really simple investments solo, you can start from ten dollars. It's all right in your face. You don't have to. Your banking is already connected. You're gonna see so many people more, so, many more people invest. But the market was so conservative and everyone's saying like, look, it's a it's conservative, not many people will, we will do this. But you need to be, I would always say, naively optimistic in these kind of things. You need to be a little bit crazy, right, because everyone tells you, look, we've been doing this, supporting is like this. You know, I don't know if, if, if people want this, you need to be if you need to keep your head down, you need to keep keep working on it. And the only way to convince people is by by showing the numbers, saying like, look, we did make it and it actually does work. And and this is the where, this is the where, where we really see the change of behavior. Look, you know, you have an improved product offering. Look, there's more younger people going to your to your your financial institution. Give more revenue, and then people you know. Then you see the change of behavior. And I think this is the this is the case for every Finn, for every Fintech that works with financial institutions, because if you're a fintech that works with, like directly BTC, it's different. You convinced one by one, by one by one, and it's a completely different game. I'm pretty sure I'd not have de Vision if I would have worked... our financial states. Continues because and I would think the same like everyone else. But like, there's no way, we cannot change it. It's been the same and and and that's the thing that outsider perspective, I think this is where it really has has a lot of failure. You talked about it's a bit of education and I have a model uh that that I teach called the exponential growth blueprint and it really looks at behavior transformation, because all of our behaviors are rooted in the belief systems that we have, and those can be belief systems from our past experience, our successes are failures. It can be even as deep as our environment, our family of origin. But it's those beliefs that inform the thoughts that we have, that go on to influence our feelings, that then inspire our actions which, when repeated, become our habits that lead to our predictable future. Digital growth is a journey from good to great, but sometimes this journey can feel confusing, frustrating and overwhelming. The good news is you don't have to take this journey alone, because now you can join a community of growth minded marketing and sales leaders from financial brands and fin techs who are all learning, collaborating and growing together. VISIT DIGITAL GROWTH DOT com slash insider to learn more about how you can join the digital growth insider community to maximize your future digital growth potential. Now back to the show. Is it possible? Because then you start looking outside at other examples and other verticals where you know slowly, over time, you know new entrants entered into a market place and it was the legacy model, rooted in beliefs of the past, that they just did it some please see what was right around the corner. I think blockbuster, Netflix is one of the best examples of this that everyone talks about, and I'm bored with that. I'm bored having that conversation. I'm more interested in the training aspect, because you mentioned education and from the research that we're doing here at the Digital Growth Institute we are finding time and time and time again, leadership yet alone. Mid Level Management does not feel that either a, they have the time to continuously train learn or be that things are just happening so fast that they're never going to catch up with the mind state needed. What is the cure, what is the solution to create that space and time to continuously learn of what's going on, not just within banking but within a larger perspective that connects different DOTS,...

...because that's, I think that's how the world is. We're all interconnected now from different verticals and maybe I know your story. Maybe first speak to how you got to this point, because you were doing pattern matching leading up to this and that goes back to your days and you know, kind of the your early days of the Internet. So roll that back, because I think it's the pattern matching of of people patterns that has allowed you to see things and and and then we'll shift that into maybe how can we continuously empower and educate leaders within financial brands to see the same people patterns that people like you were seeing. First of all, I got to where I am right now. One thing that was pretty significant, like happening this is there was this whole investing boom and this was this was like during of it, and when the when all the stocks fell and then jumped up like three months later. It was a crazy time. And then, out of nowhere, everybody, you know, we was talking about this, everybody and everybody was going to Robin Hood and at the same time, and it is when I really got started. Interesting it, because I remember, you know, there was a way to do investing everywhere, but okay, everyone's going to robin and then I kept talking, and this before. I kept talking to everybody like where are you investing? Why you're doing that, like where we could preferably want to invest? And then this, this kept this kept going back. This is kind of that. That the pattern, the pattern that I saw. But we're talking about education here. said, this is not really a lesson yet, this is an observation. You know, you're you're slowly trying to get somewhere, but you're not there. You're not there yet. So, Um, and then at the time I was I was working, I was working at a at a hedge fund, uh, and the first thing we build, and to me it was kind of mind blowing that that it was so it was such innovative, like we built for our clients like a little dashboards so you could actually track their they could track their investments, so they wouldn't have to wait for their monthly email every month and just having these conversations, and this is about millions of dollars. And I was like, you know, you don't know how your investments are doing. You have to wait every you have to wait every month for that. Like what is insane? You kind of want that in real time if you got millions of dollars in play in the market, like waiting till the end of the month is a very proposition. Already that saying, like you guys, you know, it's not really hard. You know, I can, I can, I can make that I think we can make that for you know, like Oh really, yeah, yeah, yeah, look, it's it's it's really so, you know, you start building it and you start. This is kind of the first education step. Is that even so, first you tell consumers that it's actually possible to live, manage there. And you know I'm talking about investing because of my product, but it goes for everything, goes through. The digital banking is well, of course, go for for loans,... loans, it is exactly the same. So first trying to have to educate that the consumers, saying like hey, this is actually possible. But like a financial institution, if they don't have it, you know they're never going to educate you on it. So you really have to start with a financial sedition. You have to start educating them and educating. It's funny. I've seen so many different approaches work. Sometimes you say like more revenue, you know you will, you will get more clients. You get more. Sometimes it's like you improve your product offering. You know your your clients, manber say will, they will love you. And sometimes you know younger clients, it's still like you improve your revenue, more younger clients. Um, and I found it was. So it was challenging too, because everyone has a different reason to innovate. Um and but, but I think you always start your education, it always starts staring. It's just a small, very simple lessons right. One, everyone is, everyone is like investing off like, like not their bank, but like off platforms. Second of all, clients. They they don't even know it exists at their bank. Or like they do know what exists, but, you know, the financial institution doesn't done what the client wants. So like a death board or like like a low look, a low threshold, and the putting them all together. You know, there's really simple. If I would explain every single one of them like like individually, like yeah, obviously you know this is not rocket science, but you put them all on a thick part and you stir it and then and they're like, Oh wow, this is actually a product and this is what' we're working on when it comes to a younger demographic, a younger generation, specifically through the lens of investing. I think there are some trends to be aware of. Uh, you know, if if we look at the a person who works with a traditional financial advisor, Um, they're at a different stage in their life. But the idea of investing, is that something that we have to wait to do anymore? It's the decentralization again that empowers an individual and I think Robin Hood is a great example of what you saw coming out of of the pandemic and the idea of even, you know, things blowing up, like with Reddit and the whole game stop thing. That was ah, that's a whole like subculture right there. That I would say, if if you're not integrated and aware of what's going on in the marketplace yet, alone within a certain market segment, you might be missing opportunities, definitely in the short term. But I think those are predictive trends to to look out over the next ten, twenty or thirty years because, like you said, you're twenty eight, but fast forward to win your forty eight or your fifty eight and an executive who might be in there later years. I'm not gonna worry about that because I'm gonna be retired in ten years.

That someone else's problem. But but if we don't begin addressing those roadblocks and opportunities now, it might be too late by the time that you get to that later stage. Yourself. So it's always about, you know, keeping the heads up at the horizon line while still looking in the Review Mirror about where you've been, not getting complacent, but but looking at the trends now and using that a predictive model for the future. What's your take on that? Investing is a is a mindset. You know, if, if you started, if you started investing, you know, you know this is this is a big stuff and it doesn't really matter if it's ten dollars million. It's like you're you are doing the right thing. Uh, and I think it's almost like a financial institucious kind of responsibility to to offer that. And I think, honestly, I think a financial advice is great and our product. It's always next off the next to financial advice. Some people just want to talk to youman. Some people want to have everything digital. Um, you know that. That is all fine and I honestly think a financial advice it's perfect in a way and you can talk to someone, you can say, like you know, educate me more, like you know, I'll always share my personal story with you, but it's just not it's just not scalable enough and it's not for everybody. It's a it's a high speciald it's it's a long onboarding, it's it's it's just not you know, and I think it's almost like a financial so you have responsibility to offer, you know, investing, because it's such a big part of let's say growing up. Let's say it's taking a quick taking good care of yourself, and there's so much. Coming back to the idea of the behavioral model, there is so much, once again, a person's belief system. Is this something that I can do? I would say, for for example, I am forty, almost forty one, and if I go back to whenever I was eighteen, uh, they talked about it in school a little bit, but it wasn't that big of a deal. Now I loved reading and I read two books that pretty much changed the trajectory of my life forever. One was rich Dad, poor dad, and then the other one was the millionaire next door, and so that really just at the age of eighteen, I started seeing things a lot differently. That guided my decisions going forward in life. And so I think where we'll call it just the GEN Z generation, compared to the millennial generation, compared to the ex generation, compared to the boomers. Things are happening earlier and faster and I do see maybe Fintech and the neo leading in that space compared to the incumbents. I think of, Um, a couple of of of people that we've had on the PODCAST, Chad Willardson being one of them. Financial Advisor, wrote a book called SMART, not spoiled,...

...and he is a CO founder in a startup called gravy stack, which is really geared towards targeting, you know, parents with kids, and we're piloting the platform and it's teaching these behaviors at a much earlier age, because it doesn't matter if it's ten dollars or a hundred dollars or a thousand or ten, I mean it's it's multiplied at that point. But it's the behaviors that we established early and often that I think lead to to this type of a future. Like you said, mindset. Where's the opportunity for incumbents, banks, credit unions to not just provide the platform but to offer the coaching, and I don't want to say the guidance because that's getting into the financial advisory space, but I would say just the coaching to empower individuals to establish maybe new beliefs around money that could help get them to a new future. That was that possible previously, and I think it's very interesting. The financial advisor like like example. By the way, nothing against financial advice and I think I think they're great and I think they're very bit suited for a group of people. Um, but if you want a little bit even, if you want less, not not guidance, but less training or a little less, less intense, we we don't. We don't want a monthly like like, I don't want to be on the phone all the time. I just want to like pull some money out, like you do. You don't want that. I think there's so many different like stags before that, like levels of intensity. I'd like to I'd like to to go in. I think this is where, like financial institutions can, can help so much. Like some people all they need is, say frequently asked pression section, like all they needed that. You know, it's completely fine. Some of them they might want to like call their financial institution one saying hey, you know, I did this, can you help? You know, I have a question once a year. Right at a different level of intensity. But there's so many levels in between, and I think the best financial institution you can can offer every single level, instead of now we only we only offer like this very intense level of of support and nothing else, and I think is being exceptive. Like I think that's the most I think that's the most important thing, meeting people where they are. But I like the levels of intensity. That makes a tremendous amount of sense and I think I like in the world of financial services to that of healthcare, Um, and maybe even health and fitness to be more specific, because you know, you can get a Peloton and that Peloton membership you know, comes with you know, uh, the ability to ride with a peer group cohort of sorts. Um, you could get a gym membership, you could get a gym membership with a trainer, and there's once again, it's different levels of intensity based upon where people are,...

...and I like the idea of meeting people where they are on their own journey, because they probably will flex in and flex out based upon different stages of life. Even Um, when you think about the future of of financial services, what are you feeling most hopeful and optimistic about? You know, I do really like the way how financially set up in the US, like we're all everyone has the original and the original Credit Union. You know, these are have been around for so long. Um, and I sometimes, you know, you need to really feel the need to change, and I think, I think we are. We all feeling it. Like I think that the average, you know, no one really wants to talk about it, but you know, the average age of a of a member or like a user in like a regional bank or credit it's just just really all and Um, I see, I see such a such a big change right now. I see you. You still, like you said, the CEO like mid mid fifties, have been there for for fifteen years and the only reason they are there is because they don't want to make a mistakes. And if they don't make any mistake, you know they will stay until they retire and it's all good and you know, of course still exists, but it's no longer the case. It's not about not doing anything, it's making a mistakes and and and it really starts with like setting up, like how you set up like a company. So giving people different job titles give they're giving people different roles. Really like talking to people that have the job title Chief Experience Officer. Now their only job is listen and bring that back to the team. I listened to all the clients, listen to all the users. Like you know, they're experiencing. You know this and and and that. That's been a that's been a really it's been a really thick friend and I think you know it's and we're changing fast. Like ten years ago, you know, banking as a service, like a digital bank. You know, many, many financial stations did not have a digital bank and it's almost, I'm saying, to think about it ten years ago, like many of them, also, many did have but like many of them, didn't have a digital banking platform. Uh, let's allow a mobile APP for banking. It was like essentially it was in its infancy. And you know, we can roll that clock back, because it's two right now. We're coming up on the thirty year anniversary of whilst Fargo launching the very first online bank back in eight n and so when we hit that's thirty years and you see what the progression has been. And I think your words right here and your thoughts are echoing Anson Cooley, who I has had on on the previous episode. Uh, and...

...we were talking about the need for governance and and really oversight. It's it's to put some pressure in a positive manner so that we don't get stuck in the Cave of complacency. And you said a couple of words Um in your previous thoughts and there was one that you said a few times. You said see like see, and I can't help but think about and and also feel Um. You mentioned see, you mentioned field, and I can't help but think about the banking on digital growth process to where that is framed around helping people see what they cannot see, to gain a different point of view. That leads to clarity, that leads to new beliefs. When when you see things differently than you think differently about your next steps forward. But just because you think differently, does that mean that you're going to act or do differently? To bridge the gap between the thinking and the doing, it's the feel and it's the feeling. It's the commitment to feel committed to transform, to do something different because you're convicted, because you have inspiration or you've been inspired or you have a vision of something greater than the present moment. It's that feeling. That's where I see the transformation begins to unfold, and there was an Hbr Journal, Harvard Business Review Journal, Article, Um, that was framed around transformation is more emotional than it is um, uh, quantitative. Uh, it's. It's really it comes down to the feelings and the emotions that we have as individuals, as as teams, and all of that gets multiplied up to the organizational so it's I almost think it's when you're thinking about organizational transformation, quote unquote, digital transformation. I've always talked about E Q, emotional intelligence, being a key trait required to maximize future growth, but be through our conversation today just now, it's almost like not not just eq, but o Eq, like organizational emotional intelligence. And that's from an internal perspective with our team members. But one of the things that you're mentioned before was at the chief experience officer, and that job, that role, is to just listen. It's like listen to what people are saying, but also observed not what they're saying but what they're doing, because actions often do speak louder than words. They can say one thing on one hand, but then their actions would be completely different going forward. The most important thing like, hands down, you wait wait, would talk, you know, talk to financial studs all the time and more revenue and more money whatever. But at the end of the day, I don't think there's anyone who works in a financial institution who doesn't want the best for their clients, for the members and what they use them. But I think the way, like financial students have been for the last twenty years, as long as for stay, but we're...

...good and I think that this is where I did. Right now they are losing younger people because, no, that's not you know, state stability is great, but we will still go every another place that that that is a little less stable but has a little bit more of the products that that, let's say, my generation like, like like ones and needs and especially now everyone's talking all the time to each other and this is, you know, and and I would say um offering, offering like a good product. You know, you don't have to, you don't have to change the product every every three months, six months. You know, there's always something slightly better, but just making a product digital, making it, making it accessible for everybody, I think that's that's a really big step. That that it is so crucial there incremental improvements lead to continued optimization, which leads to continued growth. Mark. This has been a fantastic conversation to day and I thank you for the perspective that you've brought as we wrap up, what is one next best step, something simple, something small, that the dear listener can commit to do to continue to move forward on their own journey of growth, specifically through the lens of keeping their eyes and ears open to new opportunities that they might not either a be thinking about or others in their organizations might not be thinking about, so that they can always be learning, and that learning leads to continuous, continuous growth. What's that one thing that you would recommend that they do next? You know, you can do something so simple as cool. Fifty of your your user fifty of your clients. It's like, Hey, you know how we're doing. How do you lack what we're doing it? You know, it takes two, three hours through there. You don't even need a chief experience officer for it right. And everyone is always busy, and I get that. I'm busy, you're busy. We we're just talking about our busy. You are. I was just talking off as I am Um, but that inside, I think that's already that's already such such one stat Um. And and and try to try to have a real conversation, try to dig a little bit deeper, like very often the top of minds issues have like Davin underlaying cause, and I just think that that conversation is is, is great to have because, you know, this is also this is this has been my journey, right I you know, I kind of jokesly say this, but it's true. Like four years ago I didn't know what I credit unions. We don't have credit unions and in the Netherlands I moved only recently to the US. So all I had to do, the only thing I could do was talk to everybody, is as much as possible. In the last four years I've talked to so many clients, US as members. I took to so many differentations too. So I was like I need to learn everything that people have learned in twenty years. I need to learn it into and that those are the conversations. This is this is...

...where, this is where you learn everything. Um, so it's, at least for me, it's been kind of like, uh, one ingredient of the magic formulance. It's not the only one, but it's very, very important one. Yeah, and I think that right there, it's about going all in on people, asking listening, asking really good questions, listening to what they say and then also learning through observation. Is a great way to continuously learn so that we can maximize our future growth potentials at at our own organizations. Mark, if someone wants to continue the conversation with you, what is the best way for them to reach out and say hello? Linkedin email, mark at Eco dot investments the best two. Connect with mark, learn with mark, grow with mark. Mark, thank you so much for joining me for another episode of banking on digital growth. There has been a lot of fun today, Buddy, I appreciate it. Thank you so much as always, and until next time, be well, do good and make your bed. Thank you for listening to another episode of banking on digital growth with James Robert Lay. To get even more practical and proven insights, along with coaching and guidance, visit digital growth dot com slash insider to join a community of growth minded marketing and sales leaders from financial brands and fin techs. Until next time, be well and do good.

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