Banking on Digital Growth
Banking on Digital Growth

Episode · 9 months ago

117) #ExponentialInsights: Why You’ve Been Overlooking the Female Financial Market

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

It was only a 1988 bill that allowed women not to have a male signature for their business loan. Women just haven’t had the same generational runway that men have had, especially when it comes to business and finance.

In this episode, I interview Brian Harris, Executive Creative Director at Bradley and Montgomery, about growing a niche market and improving our marketing messaging to women.

Brian talks with me about:

- The size and nature of the perceived financial gap

- How FinTech has fostered an attitude of empathy

- Representation: showing a 27-year-old woman shopping for a home

- Being where your growth market is

Internalizing your goal of understanding what you’re saying to women

Related Episodes

- Ep. 71 w/ Jeffrey Kendall

- Ep. 105 w/ Jennifer Beeston

- Ep. 111 w/ James Robert Lay

https://www.digitalgrowth.com/podcast/banks-and-credit-unions-consumer-marketing-niche- Ep. 115 w/ James Robert Lay

You can find this interview and many more by subscribing to Banking on Digital Growth on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, or here.

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for Banking on Digital Growth in your favorite podcast player.
 

...it really is a commitment to understanding what you're saying, two women and if you don't, it's gonna come off so hollow mm mm. Mhm. You're listening to banking on digital growth with James Robert lay a podcast that empowers financial brand marketing, sales and leadership teams to maximize their digital growth potential by generating 10 times more loans and deposits. Today's episode is part of the exponential insight series where James robert interviews the industry's top marketing sales and fintech leaders sharing practical wisdom to exponentially elevate you and your team. Let's get into the show greetings and hello, I am James robert ley and welcome to the 117th episode of the Banking on Digital Growth podcast. Today's episode is part of the exponential insight series and I'm excited to welcome BRian Harris to the show. Brian is the executive creative director at Bradley and Montgomery, a boutique creative agency helping brands be magnetic by earning the audience attention through creating things that they, the audience are attracted to and care about. Brian and his team have worked with brands including Chase First Financial Bank, Mastercard zell on deck and even Apple with their apple card. And I want to come back here to the point about earning the audience's attention because that's exactly what BRian and I are going to be talking about today, the audience and more specifically the female audience and how financial brands can win the hearts and minds of women with that. Welcome to the show, BRian. Thank you for having me. You know, before we get into the conversation, I always like to start off on a positive note. What is one thing that you are excited about right now, Whether that be personally or professionally, what's giving you a lot of good energy right now? Oh gosh, I have to say Tiktok tiktok tiktok, Gosh, I love Tiktok. Um you know, I'm a little freaked out at times that how well that algorithm has learned me. Um, and what I enjoy, but that's what makes it so wonderful. Um You know, I, I usually start start my day with a good 15 or 20 minutes of just tiktok videos and and just seeing the creativity that's out there. I mean, you know, Youtube unleashed that in the, you know, in the beginning and we saw the rise of the creator, but oh my gosh, it's just, and it's accelerating so much with, with Tiktok and, and I think you're onto something with that because you mentioned Tiktok and the creativity, Youtube now has more of that Tiktok like platform that they're trying to bring in with their shorts and the creativity and the, and almost it's the creator economy is something that I'm fascinated by because when you and I had joe policy on the show from Content Marketing Institute and he just re released content inc and there's such a fantastic opportunity now that anyone literally can, can with a creative thought, an idea can go out, build an audience, it's gonna take some time, sometimes longer, sometimes shorter, and then figure out a way to create value and monetize whatever that creative passion is. Um, there's a guy whose name is, his mark is that marc robert robert, He's a, I think is his last name. My kids just turned me on to him. He's an ex Nasa engineer. He was at Nasa and then he left and he's been doing all these like science videos and my kids are all just learning from, So learning is even transformed because of these different elements. No, I mean, it's amazing. Just, you know, obviously we've gone through as our age, we've...

...gone through a decent amount of change um, with media and, and we truly are into the Tiktok is the ultimate blip media. Um, you know, I can go from a video where I'm watching uh, you know, Home Inspector do a funny video about, about flipping, you know, fails. You know, all the things that someone did in the home that were horrible, you know, right into uh, someone doing some really crazy inventive video techniques, sort of video where it's all about the transitions and things like that. And then on to a dog video. You know, it's just this after this, after this. But you know, to the point of the things that we're talking about today and particularly women, um, you know, I find social media whether it was twitter before, um now ticktock, it's such a great way To, to see what the audience is talking about, what's on their mind. Um you know, if you see 2.1 million people liked this video, there's a reason, you know, something is resonating. Um and so it's become a, I mean, it's entertainment, but it's also emotional intelligence for me to understand, okay, oh, they're angry about this, or they're excited about this, so it's also just a great tool. Yeah, and I think that that idea and and and and coming back to building and connecting relationships with women and money and finances. Money empathy has been something that's been big on my mind lately. And as I mentioned before, I see the female market as a tremendous opportunity for growth, perhaps even a niche market opportunity, niche marketing, niche audiences, being focuses on episode 71 1 11 and 1 15 for the dear listener to come back in reference, but it's because women are becoming the and and growing to be the the the household breadwinner, and that's jumped from 23% in 2019, up from 11% in 1967 is almost a quarter. And then nearly nine in 10 women who are married or live with a partner Said that they're also involved in spinning decisions in their household, so 90% and that's up from just 42% in in 2012, according to research from a firm called Hearts and Wallets. And so when we look at this, women also control the majority of consumer spending. But there's a problem. And this problem is the opportunity that I see for financial brands as women often feel disconnected from their finances. And I want to dig into that to begin with. Why is that? You've written an article about this? Why do women feel disconnected? What's making them feel disconnected? Where's the gap here brian? There's a few things um One of the just simple ones is a generational issue you can go back to. I mean, this is what's stunning to me. You can go back to 1988 for a bill that was passed, where women no longer had to have a male signature for their business law, 1988. That's 33 years ago, women who owned a business truly didn't own their business. You know, if if they wanted help from a bank, they had to find a male relative to co sign their loan. And so When you think about that, that that passing along of knowledge, we've we've only had a generation and a half of time between 1988 and now. Um and so...

...were the the gender roles that are part of that as well. You know, the father isn't necessarily passing that information on to the daughter. Um, it's definitely improving. I mean, I think we are seeing that it's just a lot of statistics you're talking about that people, parents are, you know, being better about informing their Children and their, their female Children. But you really do have to go back to this generation issue that women just haven't had the same runway that men have had. What are the opportunities for financial brands to maybe begin to bridge that gap to provide a path forward to, to really empower women when it comes to money, when it comes to finances because there's just such an inherent cognitive load and complexity tied to this. It takes a toll on their health and relationships and while being what's the opportunity here, Do you see? I think one of the things is to reassure women that they aren't that far behind. I think that gap, there's, there's a, there's a bigger perceived gap than there is in reality. Um, you know, men will, they do have said they have some of that may be their dad passed some of this financial knowledge onto them. There's the expectation that a man is supposed to know about money. The truth is, I think the amount of knowledge is not that big in reality. Um, and so I think what banks have to do is to say, you know, hey, have the confidence, like, you know, more than you think, you know, and obviously you're more than capable. Um, and so I think it's, it's a lot about just just reassurance and saying, uh, you know, a cop, you have the, you have the ability, um, there's just a little bit of information and you need and you can be off and running and I think that point of empowerment and then also confidence is is a key part of this because whenever there's that little bit of self doubt that starts to creep in, its here's an opportunity for financial brand to come alongside and see walk with them, you've got this, you're going in the right direction, let's get you across to the next level to the next step. And and when you think about building relationships, financial brands, building relationships with women, what's a commonly held belief that we'll just say others in the financial services space, they might have that you potentially disagree with. Put another way, where might others be misguided in their thinking about marketing and building relationships with women and and and and that those beliefs could be holding them back to creating value. That's that's a good question. Um What I think there has been in some regards, banking has been kind of a, a punitive industry a long time. Um It's all about you, do you do the right things at the right time? If you don't, we're going to charge you a fee. We're gonna, we're gonna, you know, do something to you and a lot of penalties, a lot of penalties enforcement. Yes. And you're seeing this shift happening where banks are realizing, oh wait a minute. Our, our job is not to be this punitive parent, you know, to be this kind of, you know, if we're talking about this like a negative father figure in a lot of ways, um Instead we're supposed to be helping you along and you're seeing that change happened...

...quite a bit in the Fintech world where it's like, hey, you know what, You need a couple 100 bucks until the next paycheck comes along. Yeah, stuff happens. What will help you out? Um I think you have to, there's still, there's still a lot of that old punitive thinking. You're not going to say that, that's and I think that's what you're kind of getting to. Um I think that's what the big shift banks really have to make from a mindset is like you're not, you're not the rule maker anymore or you shouldn't be the rule maker anymore. You're a facilitator that right there, a facilitator, a guide and something that I've been really honing in on is a coach. Um and it comes back to money empathy because what we know in the financial services space, whether you're at a bank or credit union, You've got 5, 10 15 2030 years of knowledge and experience doing this stuff every single day. People don't go and buy a home everyday. People don't go and get a personal loan every day and back to the point of Fintech, we're seeing this this money empathy starting to come out with brands like uh l vest and smart purse and the financial jim out of new york who is literally it's a membership coaching program, but it's clear that their positioning is really targeted and tailored to a female demographic audience. And so I want to make a point on this. Um there was a quote from a study that was sponsored by Axiom and then conducted by cornerstone advisors and this quote noted, we cannot treat women as a single customer segment. That approach will fail. And and I agree with this, I agree with the sentiment because the diversity of women is very broad and it's easy to make stereotypical missteps and and and and those flaws to happen and come out very, very quickly, which can cause some brand damage. Um How can financial brands ensure that they don't get trapped in some sort of stereotypical bias when it comes to marketing and building relationships with women here. Yeah, that that's been a challenge with our industry forever. You know, I work in advertising, you know, more specifically than even marketing, and there's always this risk that you're going to over generalize even when you're looking at data. Um you know, you'll you'll get twitter data and there's this thing that you're gonna jump and go, oh, this is a great piece of information, Well, you're still only getting the person who spoke out on twitter. Um but back to the point about women and how different both from, especially in an age perspective. Um you know, we look at millennials right now, um one in five will identify as LGBT Q. You know, I think half of people over the age of 30 are are divorced or not married. Um you know, there's always this thing that you just start to go to the o the classic structure of men and women, baby and all of that kind of stuff. It's not that um and it's going to continue to to not be that in a greater fashion, especially as you get to gen z, you know, like that one in five stat of L G B T. Q, you know, might change to two and five. Um by the time we get to that generation, I think in fact, I think if there was a study I saw in Spain, um that was very close to that. Um and so this idea that, yeah, you're talking to one type of woman, um it's just just not not the case. So you know, you need to figure out who you're talking to. You know who is the person that you...

...want. Um And obviously different products, different life stages, different parts of the country. Um All that can change. But yeah the key is to make sure that when you are particularly digitally targeting where you have some of that ability to pick the media partner um That that your P. O. V. Is correct for for the person you're talking to, I'm doing more thinking around because because you mentioned life stage uh marketing, I'm actually doing some more thinking around life stage products in how a life stage product can help too. Because the big concern with Fintech, it's death by 1000 cuts. There's so much more brand choice and options available than ever before at a consumer level. And so incumbent financial brands, they want to retain that P. F. I. That primary financial institution relationship. And so instead of thinking about life stage from a marketing standpoint, we think about life stage from a product standpoint and moving someone through these different life stages with different products designed for specific life stage. And to me there's an opportunity, and with that, when it comes to this idea of building relationships marketing two women, and and so what are some of the other opportunities from the work that you've done from the research that you've seen from the writings that you've shared big opportunities to to bridge this gap to bridge this divide. And and really, like, like we said before, walk alongside women on their own financial journey to empower and ultimately build their confidence. I think one of the things is like you were saying that the product themselves, um yeah, people are, are reaching these different stages of their life at different ages. Um and I think that There's a lot of value at times to showing the what I would call the the outlier or the front edge of something. So, you know, show 27 year old woman shopping for a home on her own. Um You know, One, I don't think that the people look at that the same way that they would have 10, 15 years ago would be like, what is, what is this, what she even doing? I don't know what a young woman would be doing, looking at a home, you know, like this. I am not kidding. Like that's how marketing used to think it would be. Well, we can't show her doing that, That's that's not realistic. Well, no one people don't react that way now and, and yes, it may be on the front edge of the type of customer, but you know what it says to that person is. Yeah, no, we want you and and bringing them into the tent. Um I think that's really it. You know, it's representation is just one of the biggest things that you can do in your marketing. Um You know, and I think we see that across a lot of different things, whether it's entertainment to advertising too. Um Politics, whatever it is, it's just there there has to be greater representation and that makes a huge difference. Technology has transformed our world and digital has changed the way consumers shop for and buy financial services forever. Now, consumers make purchase decisions long before they walk into a branch. If they walk into a branch at all, but your financial brand still wants to grow loans and deposits, we get it. Digital growth can feel confusing, frustrating and overwhelming for any financial brand, marketing and sales leader, but it doesn't have to because James robert...

...wrote the book that guides you every step of the way along your digital growth journey, visit www dot digital growth dot com to get a preview of his best selling book banking on digital growth or order a copy right now for you and your team from amazon Inside you'll find a strategic marketing manifesto that was written to transform financial brands and it is packed full of practical and proven insights you can start using today to confidently generate 10 times more loans and deposits now. Back to the show. Yeah. Yes. And and back to this point that 27 year old woman buying a home. Uh I've seen it. I literally literally just had this conversation with my son's fifth grade teacher. We took her to lunch. Uh My son wanted to keep in touch with her. And so my wife, so why don't we invite her to lunch and to see how our summer is going? Well, It was a four hour lunch. We had the most fantastic conversation. So she's been a teacher for probably 10 years now, not married, Uh, owns a home, bought it out, I think she said she was 27, And it was just, it was a great story of success in confidence and how she did it. And it's like she made it and she was, you could see it, you could hear it in her voice, she was so proud. And I thought to myself, if that enthusiasm was able to be captured and bottled up, what an amazing story then too. Transfer to others. I also can't help but think about the conversation and episode one of five that I had with Jennifer Beeston, Who is the nation's top 1% lender. And she was talking about how as a newlywed um she got into some trouble. Her and her husband were approved for a mortgage, but then they ended up getting the maximum amount for the purchase price. Well, by the time that you had property tax and insurance, it put them underwater. And that was that was the reason that she became a mortgage under because she did not want other people to have that same experience. So there's that that idea of money empathy coming back into play because she walked that journey herself and she's wanting to prevent others from having those same experiences, pains pitfalls. Speaking about pain and in this idea of women and building relationships with women from a financial brand. What are some of the common pains and struggles that you have seen that you've heard about when it comes to just women and their relationship with with money? What might some of those be I said before, I think there is this, it's just confidence. Um, women already know more than they think they know. Um, I mean that's an overstatement but of generalization, you know, like said, we talked about earlier, hey, we're talking about a wide range, but I really do believe millennial generation, gen z generation. Um, the knowledge is there, um, I think they believe there's some some magic or something that they don't know. There's like this little key that they haven't been provided and there might be little bits of that information, but like I said, it's not As much as one would would think. And so it's about that, it's about confidence. It's really saying, um, you you have this, you know, more than you think, you know, um, and we have the little extra, you know, that you might need. I think the other thing, the other pain point is from an organization standpoint, you talk about money empathy, um, is digging into your organization and finding like that that woman you were talking about who became...

...a mortgage lender because the experience she had, um, I think women respond well to hearing the stories, the scars, what someone else went through, that, you know, that commiseration, like, oh, I experienced that too. Um, if you can find people in your organization who who have been through these things, who have, who have, you know, also still faced. There's there's a lot of sexism out there, there's there's still a lot of people who who treat women like the little lady. Um, and I think that that common experience is just a great thing if you can bring it forward and I think to build upon that thought and I'm gonna leap ahead 2 to 3 years. Um there's a great book that I'm reading right now, shout out to bryce nobles over at MX for the recommendation, but it's called The Business of belonging and it's about the role that building communities. And I see digital as a community building mechanism so that women in particularly don't feel alone on this journey, they're able to congregate and bringing this back to your point. I think you used almost like the role of a facilitator or a connector as a financial brand to to build this sense of, that's what the financial jim is doing out of new york. And so you can do this at a macro level, at a larger regional or a national brand, or even on a micro level with a community financial brand. Uh and and and to me thoughts on building digital community, because that really kind of comes back to the point you're making to start this with Tiktok and how you've got content creators and contributors and then you've got consumers as well. What would that look like to build a, we'll call it a community of like minds to facilitate conversations so that people don't feel alone. The ultimate goal is to build their confidence regardless of if someone has a relationship with said financial brand or not, it becomes almost taking like the joe policy, content, inc approach that it's um it's a property that's independent of our brand. It's almost what I think of what American Express did with MX Open form as they were trying to get into that small business market years ago, maybe there's a play here um, to refund, I think there is a, what I would say is is it's maybe a real simple thought, but be where you need to be um, and when I say that there is the digital world where you need to be and then, and then there's the physical world um be a part of the physical organizations in your markets, you know, if it's uh, if there's an entrepreneurial women's organization, make sure your, your financial brand has representation there, make sure you know your in person at the events. But then that group also has, you know, likely facebook community in twitter and instagram community, try to be a part of that, um pick the right of uh you know, we talked about creators, you know, pick the their media now, you know, become become part of their stories if you can because there's a lot of micro influencers, a lot of medium sized influencers out there uh and they gotta make content, you know, they have things they need to talk about and if you could come on and say, hey I am an expert on helping women invest, I am an expert on helping women budget, I am an expert in, you know,...

...just the demystification of finances, whatever that is, um I think there's just a lot of opportunity out there, I mean the biggest challenges honestly being able to, to prioritize, you know, which ones you want to be a part of. Yeah, that's like content collaborations and, and and and it comes back to this idea of, of niche and niche focus that I mentioned before, I can't help but think of what agility bank out of Houston texas is doing. Uh there are de novo they're just getting started up, its female owned and it will most likely be female run. Um It plans to be a community bank that is digitally focused to make banking. Yeah. And as its name, Agile and the president and Ceo Lauren Sparks is really aiming for serving a diverse population of of Houston with a particular focus on women and minorities. And so to me, it's when you get this focus um and get really clear at this ideal market segment, because I think that that idea of women are coming back to the point, it's such a broad overlay that there are almost niches within that broad overlay that you can build a community around. When you build that community, then you can find the the connections and relationships from a quote unquote influencer standpoint, and it's just a self perpetuating, self giving of value and as a result, by creating value for others, you'll create value for the financial brand. And it's a long play, just like it takes time to build any relationship is going to take time to build community thoughts on that, because I can hear the dear listener in the back of their mind saying, oh, well, we just don't have time. We don't want to invest the time. Oh, that's what it is though. It is time. And I think that's uh that's the thing that maybe I wrestle with the most when a financial institution approaches me because um when you are talking about women, when you are talking about building community, it's a lot of not just effort on whoever you're hirings side, it's a lot of effort on your internal side. And truthfully, most people aren't prepared for that conversation. And if you think that this is a three months, six months a year. No, I mean these are these are things that take 35 years to to really have the payoff for. But once it does, it's a machine like you were saying, you know, um it will feed itself. But yeah, it's it's a whole organizational effort that has to be put behind content and being a part of these digital communities. Yeah. And I want to dive a little bit deeper into that because to continue to build relationships with women, to be magnetic as i it shared before, to earn the audience attention through creating things that they the audience are attracted to, that they care about. What are some of the biggest roadblocks that a financial brand, a bank or credit union must be aware of. That could hold them back from capturing some of the opportunities that that we've conversed around here today. What could stand in their way Bring down the stoic wall, That's, that's the big thing. Um And banks will wrestle with that because they're the financial institution, you know, just even those words, financial institution, it says something and you you really have to to...

...change your own maybe perception of who you were um and maybe who you're now going to be. Uh and I think that's really it is, is trying to be a more understanding, more empathetic, more emotional, more just honest. Um speaking from the heart, uh sort of brand, I think that's what I think that's particularly, yeah, millennials gen z is going to respond to a long term. I mean you're hitting on some key points that I have a lot of conversations with in our coaching program, that all transformation That leads to future growth. All transformation begins with two things. Number one telling the truth, telling the truth to yourself, telling the truth to your team about where you've been, where you're at and where you could grow next and it's the way you could grow next is the scary part of it because it's uncharted territory. It's forcing people to come out of a cave of complacency. That has created a for lack of better word of pseudo confidence. Internally the world is transformed and will continue to transform. Covid has been an exercise of what I'm saying of just change management that's going to unfold over the next 5 to 10 years. Um It's a warm up if you will at a macro level and I think it's those that can feel uncomfortable can feel comfortable feeling uncomfortable and make that a part of their operating D. N. A. In which has not been the case in banking for the last 500 years. It's been pretty stable, it's been pretty secure. But when you're talking about Fintech and now we get crypto into the conversation and defy it's like and then you get all the changes consumer behaviors and those market trends and technology trends. It's it can feel like you're on a sea of chaos. And so the best thing to do is to ascend to what I call the apex of awareness and just take a look around, just look around objectively without emotion and just look and learn and listen and get really good at asking good questions and don't have any assumptions because I think when we start making these assumptions that's what gets us into. That's why I love doing this podcast because just talking today asking I've learned so much and I hope that the dear listener has as well. This has been a great conversation brian. I want to get really practical here as we wrap up here at the end. Two simple recommendations that the dear listener can commit to take action on because I'll change all transformation begins with a simple commitment to take some action to move forward, to make progress along their digital growth journey. And I I like to call this the game of start and stop. And so to begin, what is one thing that you would recommend financial brands start doing to optimize the way that they build relationships with women. And I'm going to add in a digital world for some context here. What what what what's the one thing they could start doing? I always I'm gonna build on something you said just a second ago. There is so much importance to being honest with yourself. The thing that drives me insane is I will see words used internally at an organization, but no one has internalized those words. Great points. And that that is, that's, that's so challenging. Um, so if if you're going to put something down on paper, if you're going to say this is our mission or this is who we are, or this is how we are going to relate to women, um, boy, you, you better understand it. You really have to understand it and you...

...really have to talk about it as an organization and, and do it deeply, not on a surface level. Don't just get, you know, just don't think this is marketing. Hey, I'm just gonna get this done and whip bang. It's done. No, it really is a commitment to understanding what you're saying two women and if if you don't, it's going to come off so hollow. Um, and I, and that's like, so that, that's one of the big things that, that financial, and this is true. Probably a lot of our brands, but financial institutions, um, everyone gets caught up in and moving fast and moving on to the next next thing. But you really have to understand and internalize the truth. Yes, and you're right. If if this is regulated and put in that marketing box, it is destined to fail if it is not believed in self actualized and owned by the organization at large. If this is indeed an organizational commitment which would require training and review and optimization. And I think back to your point, It's a longer game. It's, you know, you know, 18 months, three years, five years of just continuous progress. But, but I think it's so important to measure the progress of this journey by looking behind, it where we've come from instead of looking ahead at what we still have to do, because that's where that frustration begins to set in and uh, let's just kill back to the status quo because it's what we know and it was safe and it was secure and that's where we get trapped back into the cave of complacency. But it's those that find the courage to break free to move forward and then to create something new. I buy Really believe that's what the marketplace is going to reward over the next 5-10 years specific to the banking space here. And so if we're going to start this on one hand, I also need, we need to be mindful that if we add something to our plates, we also need to clear our plates as well and let go of something, let go of something from the past to create that space and time to create something new. So on the flip side, what's one recommendation that you would have for the dear listener that they could stop doing to ultimately maximize the relationship with women going forward into the future. So, so building off of that, that point of really internalizing what you're, what you're doing now, what you're trying to do who you're speaking to and have that deep understanding. Um, I think the there is this desire right now that everyone thinks that the world is moving at a million MPH, which which is somewhat is, but people are always looking down the road and there and when you do that, you're you're not doing a great job today. Um, and I think that's really what back to a point you're making. Let's look at what we're, how we're succeeding now and build a step on that. Not not just say oh my gosh, well that was great, we did that thing checkmark move along. Um There just needs to be be in the moment, be present, really, be present. And and that's not to say don't plan, don't think about the future, but my gosh, people really get into that mindset of I've done and it's over, I'm moving on to the next thing and that's not how this is successful. No, it comes back...

...to what we call those four digital growth operating environments, you can be learning, you could be thinking, you could be doing, you can be reviewing, but you can only be in one place at one time um and the dangers to get stuck in the doing never creating the space and time to review what you've done to learn from those experiences, to think about the insights that you've gained and then apply it to the next iteration going forward brian if anyone is listening, they have questions they want to connect, they want to continue the dialogue that we started today. What's the best way for them to reach out, say hello to you? You can just reach out to my email brian at bam ideas dot com brian at bam ideas dot com. Once again brian, this has been a lot of fun, very insightful and thank you so much for joining me on another episode of Banking on Digital Growth. Thank you James as always and until next time be well. Do good and make your bed. Thank you for listening to another episode of banking on digital growth with James robert ley like what you hear, tell a friend about the podcast and leave us a review on apple podcasts, google podcasts or Spotify and subscribe while you're there to get even more practical improvement insights, visit www dot digital growth dot com to grab a preview of James roberts, best selling book banking on digital growth Or order a copy right now for you and your team from Amazon inside you'll find a strategic marketing and sales blueprint framed around 12 key areas of focus that empower you to confidently generate 10 times more loans and deposits until next time, be well and do good.

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