Banking on Digital Growth
Banking on Digital Growth

Episode · 11 months ago

67) #ExponentialInsights: Doing Digital: Why Traditional Banks Must Transform feat. Chris Skinner

ABOUT THIS EPISODE


Many out there understand that traditional banks need to digitally transform or die.

It’s one thing to say you are going to transform…

But it’s meaningless without first answering the question: Into what?

In this #ExponentialInsights episode, I sit down with Chris Skinner, Author of Doing Digital, and discuss what it really means to digitally transform traditional banking.

We cover:

  • Why digital transformation can’t be delegated to a department

  • Why digital transformation really isn’t about technology at all

  • Why the digitally-native fintechs will always have a leg up on traditional banks

You can find this interview, and many more, by subscribing to Banking on Digital Growth on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, or here.
 

...traditional banks tend to push productsthrough channels to get greater share of wallet and cross sell, whereasdigital banks start with the customer journey in need and then build the userexperience to be part of a relationship interaction digitally rather thantrying to actually sell them anything you're listening to. Banking on DigitalGrowth with James Robert Lay, a podcast that empowers financial brand marketing,sales and leadership teams to maximize their digital growth potential bygenerating 10 times more loans and deposits. Today's episode is part ofthe exponential insight Siri's, where James Robert interviews the industry'stop marketing sales, and Fintech leaders sharing practical wisdom toeexponentially elevate you and your team. Let's get into the show. Greetings inHello, I Am James Robert Ley and welcome to the 67th episode of theBanking on Digital Growth podcast. Today's episode is part of theexponential insight, Siri's and I'm Excited to welcome Chris Skinner to theshow. Chris is an author, speaker and troublemaker, according to his LinkedInprofile. I like that, and Chris has written 14 books, most recently doingdigital lessons from leaders. He also writes a daily Blawg and consults aboutthe future of banking. Hello, Chris. And welcome to the show. Hey, James.Thanks for inviting me. Great to be here. You know, I've been followingyour work for about a over a decade now and and and have to ask, you do a lotof writing. The writing has been very helpful for me personally, Veryinspiring. But have you always been a writer? And what inspires you to write?Because you always have something good to share? And I'm grateful for that. IfI'm honest, I've always worked in technology, and that would be companiesdealing with banks and financial institutions. In fact, when I startstarts getting with technology and insurance way back when on dumb Many,many, many, many years ago I did a presentation about the state of theinsurance industry and the feedback forms came in and someone said, Tell mesomething that I don't know And I realized I was talking about the greatdepth knowledge I had about the industry. But I wasn't talking aboutsomething that was visionary or out there, and it changed my mind andthinking about things I still remember to this day, as you can tell on dsoback then I decided on determined that you are the of how I will work wouldalways be focused on where we going next. What's happening? A few infinancial services. I've been doing that for three decades on initiallymainly presenting about it. I wasn't writing about it, but I got maderedundant In 2000 and two on Bond. I got hired by a couple of companies tostart writing white papers, and that...

...started the writing process. I havebeen writing a little bit before, but then I became suddenly a a consummatewriter on a regular basis on started blogging in 2008 because I'm a real sadOh, I decided to block every single day. You know, hearing hearing that story. Iconnect with it a lot personally. In 2012, I had an advisor come in, DavidBaker. Hey wrote a great book called The Business of Expertise, and he had agreat exercise called Drop and Give me 20 and pretty much just ramble off 20insights that were unique, our own perspective, not someone else'sperspective. And it was a very challenging exercise at the time, andhe's like you need to start writing. You need to start writing a lot. And sostarted the writing process myself. Very cathartic. And then I had anotheradviser that I've worked with Blair Ends, who wrote a book called WinWithout Pitching and one of things he picked up. And he goes, You do a lot ofthinking through your writing, so I probably right way more than whatpeople know. Onley. A small percentage of it makes it out, because for me it'sIt's, I think, through my writing. That's really where I find my thoughts.So it's good. It's good to hear that back story, because thinking about yourwriting, you wrote a a recent piece on your blogged. One of the most respectedbankers in the world, Jamie Diamond, is the chairman and chief executive of J.P. Morgan Chase, which is also one of the most highly valued banks. You notedthat Jamie is scared shitless of Fintech, and I had to chuckle it that Ihave to ask why is Jamie Diamond scared shitless of fintech and should otherfinancial brand leaders feel the same way? First of all, we need to qualifythat, he said, that I didn't say, he said on an analyst call around whatkeeps him awake, and you know that was his reaction on. But the reason why hereacted that way is quite a while now, Jamie Diamond said. Well of the bankleaders have Bean giving a rallying call to start waking up to thechallenge of technology and specifically the fact that AH bank isvery slow moving, inflexible, not agile on. They have to change and pivot,which is very hard to do if you're not using the technology capabilities oftoday effectively. Specifically, for example, I use this analogy quite oftenis that most traditional banks are becoming cloud based, but they're notcloud native. Most challenger banks were born on the Internet on mosttraditional banks were born in the Industrial Revolution, and so there's areally difficult exercise to go through there on DSO when I wrote the mostrecent book doing Digital, what I aimed to do in that book is to say, Look, youknow, there's some banks trying really hard here to change and pivot at whichJP Morgan Chase's one on. But you know,...

I'm surprised that they allow me tostep into their officers and joined in the book in terms of being interviewedand giving me the lessons they were learning and trying to pivot the otherbanks involved with BBS in Singapore, China Merchants Bank in China ObviouslyBBVA and I N g. I picked those five main because they're all respected intrying to do digital well on specifically through digitaltransformation. Well, but I think that the crux of the matter is fintech firmsare born on the Internet cloud native, fully platform, based with a P s andthe ability thio interact. Using open financial services on by thetraditional banks are way, way, way, way, way off that ability. I used aphoto in that log, in fact, which many people have been picking up on theracing truck that has all of these bags and bikes and chairs on the truckfalling out of the sides and people seeing on the top on. My reason forusing that picture was to say what most traditional banks are involved in isthat they have all their workers and management riding on their speedingtruck. They've gotta unload and reload the truck. Andi, that's reallydifficult to do. Yeah, and And I think you know, youmentioned before you do a lot of thinking about the future. And when wethink about the future, particularly through the lens of financial services, it could be hard toe let go of the past.This idea of being built on the cloud natively its operational. It's mindset,and you share in in in your book doing digital that banks must create aburning platform to ignite change, for transformation to spark change oftransformation. Can you expand on this thinking about creating a burningplatform? Is this really about first principles thinking starting overinstead of duct taping something that's really falling apart or just trying tohold things together for the old World? Well, there's, um, over 30 lessons inthe book that I saw outline from the interviews I made over six months withthese five big banks. But you start with obviously working out what to doand how to do it in getting a vision around how to digitally transform, andthen you have to disturb people and make the organization uncomfortable.This is what Jamie's doing with this. I'm scared shitless about Fintech he'sbeen doing it for a number of years. In fact, I think it's the first time wasabout 2014. Silicon Valley is coming to eat my lunch on. There's been regularmantra, you know, from Jamie around effecting change, disturbing people.That's quite funny, because when you look in track what he's been sayingabout Bitcoin, for example, it's turned around from Bitcoin is just a Ponzischeme for criminals, to it's worth $146,000 by the end of this year. Andwe should invest in it so interesting...

...how things change on I think thecritical thing is that it's great to have a burning platform and say, We'reall going to die unless we change, which actually is another thing I heardfrom two of the banks. You know, if we don't transform, we die. But you haveto then say What are we transforming to? And I use the quote often of CharlesDarwin, which is is not the fittest, the fastest, the most intelligent orthe strongest to survive. It's the ones who are most adapt thing, but the thingis on my challenge to most banks is are you adapted to change in the right way.If you're delegating digital transformation to a CFO or CEO CEO CEO,giving them a budget, a project implement in a line of business that'sfragmented, you're really not going to survive because you have to digitallytransform as a company with the leadership team. We're passionate aboutmaking the whole company change on. Do you really have to adapt? Notnecessarily in a way that's rigid in a way that says, Well, we have to have avision of the way forward. So this is where we we need to try and get. It'snot a fixed destination. It's a continuum of change to make thisorganization fifth the 21st century, based on the Internet and born on theInternet. And that does the huge cannons took for any bank leadershipteam because most banks are led by bankers don't understand technologicalrequirements. Yeah, and and it's that lack of clarity that keeps peopletrapped into what I call the Cave of complacency, uh, the cave ofcomplacency. It creates a false sense or, ah, pseudo security, and you canlook around the cave floor and see all the other brands that thought it wasgonna be safe in the cave. But not really much. So when you talk aboutthis idea of getting a clear vision about where they need to go next and Ilike, you know, making people uncomfortable because the desire tochange has to be greater than the desire to change, to say the same andthe idea of even a burning platform, I I even think of the old militarystrategy of Burn the ships like That's it. We're burning ships, we're eithergonna survive or we're going to die, and we have to keep moving forward. Butwhat's holding bank leadership teams back the most, Or maybe a betterquestion is about specifically vision is what's blinding them to begin with in the first place. Well, I think and again, going back toJamie Diamonds comments. You know, he points that square PayPal, but also ongroup in Amazon on says, You know, these guys have been be taking all ofour business. Andi, that's the disturbance. But then you have to thensay so how are we going to change and what we have to change into? Yeah, it'sa metamorphosis. Its's not a reengineering. It's a completereinvention. Renewal. Andi. I think...

...what blinds them and holds them back isthe challenge of doing that is humongous. It's really not easy.There's a couple of great books that I've used through my years. And talkingabout this one is How do you make the Elephant dance by Lou Gerstner talkingabout turning around IBM in the 19 nineties? But more recently, SatyaNadella is book about Microsoft. And when you look at Microsoft and turnaround, there you go. That's amazing that you could take a company that's,you know, stubborn, saturated, sinking and suddenly make it nimble and quickand turn around. How did they do that on? It's really about recognizing thecultural needs in the digital transformation is nothing to do withtechnology. It's about people. It's about making people understand thatthey have a voice and they have, ah, ability to enable change. And they'renot just being told what to do. But they could tell us what. Yeah, and I agree with your perspectiveon that. I say, You know what? Technology is just the tool that bringspeople together, and this is still a people business. Whether that beinternally, externally. And you even wrote, you know, specifically thinkingabout AI. You shared that ai. You cannot replace humans with machines. Sohow does this idea of a I play into the bigger conversation? Because that'swhere you know a I machine learning. Is it hype? Is it help? What's the pathforward of adding that? Because, really, it's adding additional confusion andcomplexity to it already no challenging situation that were coming out of covid. Where do we gain the clarity with that? It's a really lengthy question toanswer in terms of or rather lengthy answer to your question, but I'll tryand keep it neat. So when you look at a eyes best practice uses, most of it isautomating the mundane. It's looking at fraud risk analytic metrics. It'slooking at chatbots and automating mundane questions of customers onlineor on mobile APS. It's dealing with the things that are stupid, you know. Myfavorite example is headline from three years ago, which is that again, J. P.Morgan Chase are saving over $300,000 of lawyers time by using AI and whatthey're actually doing is saying instead of a lawyer manually manuallychecking the wordings in contracts. You can automate that using a machine?Absolutely. That's what we should be doing. We should be automating thethings that you are stupid for people to do on. Then you say so. If we'veautomated all the things that are stupid people to do, what are peopledoing? Onda. The end of the day is that it augments what they could do. Itshould be enabling them to do better things rather than replacing them on.I've met so many banks spare bank in...

Russia, or, you know JP Morgan, whoI've mentioned on the number of others who are saying, You know, the core ofwhat we're trying to do is to say to people, This is going to make you workbetter. I mean, you be asked, is a good example that you bs private banking,wealth management, high net worth. Individuals have automated nearly allthe mundane tasks, like when a customer sends a message saying, Can you changemy port portfolio? Risk metrics to medium aggressive on Asia oriented? Whyshould a wealth manager is a highly paid relationship manager? Spend thewhole of a day dealing with the admin of that when the machine could do it on.Then you leave the relationship ship manager to go back to the can't fly andsay So this is what we've done, and this is what you can do. And this iswhat I would recommend if your next based on the machines recommendationson. By the way, let's look for that dinner next week when we're back. PostPandemic. Andi Talk about where you go next. Technology has transformed ourworld, and digital has changed the way consumers shop for and buy financialservices forever. Now consumers make purchase decisions long before theywalk into a branch if they walk into a branch at all. But your financial brandstill wants to grow loans and deposits. We get it. Digital growth can feelconfusing, frustrating and overwhelming for any financial brand marketing andsales leader. But it doesn't have thio because James Robert wrote the bookthat guides you every step of the way along your digital growth journey.Visit www dot digital growth dot com to get a preview of his best selling book,Banking on Digital Growth, or Order a copy right now for you and your teamfrom Amazon. Inside, you'll find a strategic marketing manifesto that waswritten to transform financial brands, and it is packed full of practical andproven insights you can start using today to confidently generate 10 timesmore loans and deposits. Now back to the show, hearing what you're you'respeaking through automate the mundane and the things that are stupid forpeople to do. It reminds me of one of the great lessons that I've learnedfrom the reading of S. C. Sharp, founder of the Four Seasons Hotel,where he had shared systemized the predictable so that we can humanize theexceptional. And, you know, I was just having a conversation with Sue Woodard,who's the chief customer officer for Total Expert in Episode 60 66. And wewere talking about the need to create space and time for these relationshipmanagers to ask good questions. And ai machine learning is such a tremendousway to do that. And you you write a lot about this because this is about, Ithink, the humanization of digital because so much conversation has beenabout the technology. But once again,...

...technology is a tool that brings peopletogether and and I go ahead, I think the AI machine learning is actuallythere to augment human interaction not meant to replace it. And I think thatthis is one of things that we get fundamentally wrong. A lot ofdigitalization, particularly in financial services, is being constproduction on getting rid of staff instead of being augmenting service ongiving better customer relationships and customer advice. And when you turnit around to the customer focus, which is actually where we should alwaysstart, we shouldn't folks start with the cost focus we should start with.What is the customer need and how are they behaving on? How can we be morepredictive and servicing them and better at servicing them? Then we couldknow augment our people with much better tools to deal with customersrather than trying to get rid of our people. It's a great point. We shouldstart to be customer focus as opposed. Thio, I guess traditionally would becost focus. What can we redo Thio due to reduce cost? Is that a fairstatement way? Use the line regularly again, going back to traditional banksvs banks, which is traditional banks tend to push products through channelsto get greater share of wallet and cross sell, whereas digital banks startwith the customer journey in need on, then build the user experience to bepart of a relationship interaction digitally rather than trying toactually sell them anything. Yeah, so put the transformation of people overthe commoditized transaction of dollars and cents, if you will. And that's oneof the things I really appreciate about your writing is you're always lookingto inject humanity and into banking. And that's something that you touchedon in an article you wrote. The world is good, bad and mad, and the same isechoed in an article about the money jars in the pots, you know. So what arethe opportunities here as we continue to journey through this world thatwe're all navigating right now? Not necessarily a playbook. But what arethe opportunities for banks to bring their focus to solving people's rielproblems that they're facing right now? I mean, it's again open question, whichcould lead to a very lengthy answer about not trying to be sure. I thinkit's two angles to this level 31 is too many of the cos both Fintech,Challenger, neo bank and Traditional bank are just creating the traditionalProtestant services in a better way. I've always said it's, you know,creating faster horses rather than thinking about there's new vehicles outthere that we could create from start from fresh and again from Steve Jobs toHenry forward, you know, as the customer what they want. They don'tknow, present them with something that they need and they go, OK, I'll buythat. So what we should be doing is...

...challenging all the traditionalproducts and services of financial institutions on saying, Can we reinventthese on? I don't think enough of that well, including all of the new nearbanks and challenge the bank. I think they're just automating with cloud onplatforms, and happy is what was done before. When we look at what what thencomes the most interesting companies right now are companies are breakingdown traditional finance into real time finance. On there's an insurancecompany called trough, which is West coast. That's one of the first that wason my radar doing this and then and group in China do this and others whichis, I really wanna have a product that I can use for the next 60 seconds, notfor the next 12 months. And the only reason why we have 12 months annuityproducts is because in the traditional industrial model it was too expensiveto do something more often than on a yearly basis. This is particularlyinsurance, but it is also in loans and credit. Whereas what we should be doingis saying, because digital tools allow us to do it this way, we could actuallygive people the ability to move within seconds and minutes instead of yearsand months. The best radio illustrate. That is, when the payday loans companyto come into Poland on day. One of the banks here en banc who are being quiteclose to for the last decade took the view of saying they're going to stealor the credit from from from our business. How do we respond to that?And they had a big workshop brainstorming on the credit manager.Head of Risk had a huge argument with the digital bank lead project managerbecause the digital blankly project measures, saying We have to give loansin seconds. Do you compete with pay their loans on the credit riskmanagement, saying there's no way you could do that. And then he ended upworking out. You know what? We've got these customers. If we just our creditrisk metric profiles of our existing customers on a real time basis, secondby second. And whenever the customer says I need alone, you can see exactlyat that split second of time what they're good for and over what? Howlong a period. And that's what they did. And in fact, they ended up creating aproduct that literally, if you open the app and said, I need €3000 over thenext 12 months, you get the money in your account within 60 seconds, you canliterally to see it moving it within 60 seconds. And that's what really timecredit and real time insurance thought that is working in second. It's not inmonths or years, and it took. It took, you know, there's there's a quote fromthe movie Moneyball with Brad Pitt. I think there's so many greatapplications and learnings from from that movie because they're having tocompete with the New York Giants. There the Oakland A's having to compete withthe New York Giants. And Brad Pitt challenges the table, and he says,We're not looking at the We have to...

...think different. We're not looking atthe problem the right way and hearing the story. And, you know, you talkedabout Henry Ford. You talked about Steve Jobs. I even think about likeElon Musk, right, with the everything that he's done with Tesla and then withSpace six. And it really comes back to this idea of of principles. Firstthinking you've seen inside a lot of different organizations over the years.When it comes toe technology adopting technology transformation, how canfinancial brand leaders overcome? And I think it's This is overcome the past todeal with change in the present, to then eliminate some of the fears thatthey have about the future again. It's in the doing digital book, a couple ofkey things, but I just remember distinctly. That's one interview I havewith the CFO, one of the Big Five banks, and he said to me the previous chairman,she was actually knew that we had to do digital, but they didn't know what todo or how to do it because they just they weren't equippedwith not just the tools but with the actual ability to create thatleadership. And so a new chairmanship they came in on, the first thing theydid is work out what to do. They had a CEO resource of new, who had friends inSilicon Valley. They'd started doing study tours of who they thought wasdoing digital the best. Obviously, there's usual suspects, Amazon andFacebook. But then there's also Spotify and Netflix and others that, and theydid the same in China with Group and 10 Cent and Bingen on. They ended uplearning the lessons of those people about how they structure and how theymanaged to the people on how they do technology on the key thing is, it'snot rocket science or magic. It's just creating organizations that embrace the21st century digital age and implemented well on When you thinkabout, for example, of Netflix. You know, originally they were ablockbuster competitors on Where's Blockbuster now? So they learn thelessons of the digital leaders that they respect in other industries andthen try to internalize that in the how to do it within their own company. I like that. That lesson right therethey took study tours. They learned from others. They looked outside theindustry because I think so. Often we get stuck looking inside, and we and wetalked about this idea of R and D, and that's not research and developmentthat's rip off in duplicate what are others doing? And then it's a It's thefalse fallacy. It's the blind leading the blind, uh, sure authority. What'sup? But I was chairing a panel in Africa on Duh Peasant was on the panel,which is the famous story convoy, the phone payments network in Kenya. And Isaid, How the banks compete with you. Andi, the CEO said they don't They copywhat we do on. We just focus on what...

...the customer needs. Yeah, there it is.You put people at the center of all of your thinking and all of your doing andand even you reference Netflix. I think the interesting thing about the Netflixstory is they were a blockbuster competitors. They were making it faster,simple or more simple and easier for for for people. But then Netflix, theyhad the courage and this is what they had the courage to disrupt andtransform their own business model. And they upset some people when they wentfrom the delivery subscription to the streaming platform. But they were sofar ahead of their time to where even then, they took it a step further towhere it went from streaming to now. They're really a content productionhouse, Andi, creating and owning some of their own content. So I again Iusually quite often, uh, in terms of their transformation. I'm not sayingNetflix is the best, because I actually quite quite frustrated with the Netflixuser experience interface. But there was a very interesting AndersonHorowitz, late 16, said podcast, where they interviewed the head of cloud forNetflix. Which arm or crafting his name what this is. A few years ago on, hewas talking about micro services architecture, which is the secretsource of how Netflix transformed streaming Andi. He made a quote in themiddle of it, which said, Well, I talked to financial institutions aboutmicro services architect. Basically, this is Cuba net. If people owningtheir little bit of code and having a diversity Thio changed their peace dayby day without affecting the rest of the company, which gives you fleet offorce and eligibility. But, he said, anything is that when you talk forNational Institute, they kind of give a straight back it around that wholeprocess because they wanted to sign off protests that goes through theorganization hierarchy. The head of right on back, Down again before itallowed out into the wild, which takes 3 to 6 12 months. By the time is outthere, you've actually killed the enthusiasm of the developers. It's toolate and it z well, and then you bring back to the point of agile, you know,80%. Seth Godin speaks a lot. You just ship it, get into the marketplace,learn from it, iterate on it, optimize it, and it's a very just differentoperational model coming back full conversation. Now, being banking is ifyou do that, you're gonna create instability and potential hacking andexposures. But DBS, you know, they said to me, and this is interesting thatthey created this agile organization doing all the things that the likes ofNetflix do. In fact, that was one of their key so off organizationalstructures they were trying to emulate on they got the stage that they'reactually creating at updates faster than Apple's store can keep up with.Wow, wow! Yeah, And it's keeping people their problems, their challenges at thecenter of all of the thinking, and doing so that you know, they're notgetting frustrated with a negative, even digital experience because itcould take months, weeks, years to...

...create enough goodwill. You know,deposits in a person's trust bank that sits between their ears. And it couldtake, you know, minutes to deplete that. And, you know, lead to that frustration.If there's one thing one thing that you could recommend for a financial brandleadership team to think about, to commit to, you know, moving forward inin this world, what would that one thing be? Well, apart from readingChristians block and buying his book, I would say that is really committingthat there's, you know, the age old joke around the chicken participates inbreakfast. The biggest committed Andi. It's kind of yeah, it's really sayingthat you want to believe in making this happen and changing the company and thetoughest thing on. I've had this for decades because I've been dealing withtransformation for decades, ever since business process reengineering appearedon the scene back in the early 19 nineties, on every time aroundworkshops or discussions around transformation. Everybody just wantedto do incremental improvement because that's actually much easier. Andi,Specifically, every time around the workshop, I get some senior or middlemanagers say, How can I persuade my CEO and Sea Level team to understand thisbecause I need them to commit to make the change? Andi typically, and this isthe really issue they had. Is that the CEO on DMA Any of the team probably hada window in front of them of staying in that job for another two or three yearsbefore retirement. Why the hell would they take that risk, change the companyand do something radical? So my recommendation would be you have to doa radical reinvention for the digital age. And if you don't make that happen,most banks, they're not going to die. But they're going to get acquired bypeople who do this well on DSO. If you want to survive as an independent bankthat maybe it's Enquirer rather than the acquired on is the disruptor ratherthan the disrupted. You have to have a leadership team that really wants tomake this happen. Is committed, not participating? Yeah, the idea ofincremental change versus exponential change to X Thinking versus 10 Xthinking two x. You can work a little bit harder, invest a little bit mawrinto whatever it is. But really, if you're going on that exponential 10 Xthinking around its whole reinvention of of looking at the problem through acompletely different lens, coming back to putting people, customers at thecenter of all of that thinking and all of that doing what you just said, youknow, two X thinking is comfort. Zone 10 X Thinking is uncomfortable. There'snot many people who want to be uncomfortable that they're happy tojust do the job. But if we think back, if we think back to all the growth thatwe've ever made personally, it's always been in that that uncomfortable zone.That's where growth happens. And so we...

...gotta lean into that. Chris, this hasbeen great has been a great conversation. Thank you for yourinsights to your point. Thank you for your writing. Definitely pick up. Pickup Christmas book. Read his blawg. If someone wants to continue theconversation with you, what is the best way for them to reach out? Say hello,Connect with you. I'm very active on all social media, but specifically onOn on Twitter and Chris. Underscore Skinner. Connect with Chris Read. ChrisLearned from Chris. Thanks for Joining Me, Chris, on another episode ofBanking on Digital Growth. Thank you, James, as always. And until next timebe well, do good and wash your hands. Thank you for listening to anotherepisode of Banking on Digital Growth with James Robert Ley. Like what youhear? Tell a friend about the podcast and leave us a review on Apple podcasts,Google Podcast or Spotify and subscribe while you're there to get even. MawrPractical and proven insights, visit www dot digital growth dot com to graba preview of James Roberts bestselling book Banking on Digital Growth or ordera copy right now for you and your team from Amazon. Inside, you'll find astrategic marketing and sales blueprint framed around 12 key areas of focusthat empower you to confidently generate 10 times more loans anddeposits until next time, be well and do good.

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