Banking on Digital Growth
Banking on Digital Growth

Episode · 4 months ago

214) #Behindthecover - Spinning Small Behaviors into Tiny Habits


Our daily routines are formed through a marriage of habit and behavior. How you choose to develop those patterns can result in a happy union or a rocky relationship.

I’m joined once again by my colleague, Audrey Cannata, Operations Lead at DGI, to review Tiny Habits: The Small Changes That Change Everything by B.J. Fogg. In this installment of our Behind the Cover series, we dive into the elements that dictate our habits.

A few small changes can drive exponential growth in the behaviors that mold repetition.

Join us as we discuss:

-The 3 elements that facilitate the development of habits (5:59)

- 3 factors that influence behavior (16:50)

- Finding clarity in behavior by answering “The Discovery Question” (36:33)

Check out these resources we mentioned during the podcast:

- Audrey Cannata

- Tiny Habits: The Small Changes That Change Everything

You can find this interview and many more by subscribing to Banking on Digital Growth on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, or here.

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for Banking on Digital Growth in your favorite podcast player.

When we have these vague goals and we don't have the clear plan of how we're going to achieve those goals, you're less likely to stay the course and stay motivated, and so it tends to seem unattainable. You are listening to banking on digital growth with James Robert Lay, a podcast that empowers financial brand, marketing, sales and leadership teams to maximize their digital growth potential by generating ten times more loans and deposits. Today's episode is part of the behind the cover series, where James Robert Lay and Audrey Kannada breakdown lessons and insights from the books they've been reading. We understand that in a digital age, taking time to read can be a true challenge, but here at the digital growth institute we believe learning is one of the four exponential growth environments. So let's go behind the cup. Greetings and hello. I am James Robert Lay and welcome to episode to fourteen of the banking on digital growth podcast. Today's episode is part of the behind the cover series, where today we're going to be taking you behind the cover of tiny habits, the small changes that change everything, and tiny habits was written by Dr B J Fogg, who is a world renowned behavior scientist at Stanford University. Joining me for today's conversation is Audrey Kannada, operations lead here at the Digital Growth Institute, who will provide some perspective into tiny habits through what she is seeing and hearing with the training, coaching and research we are doing here at the Digital Growth Institute. Welcome to the show, Audrey. It is so good to go behind the cover with you again today. Yes, it is James Robert, so happy to be back. Well, before we get into talking about some of the key insights from a really fantastic book, tiny habits a really transformative book, what does going well for you right now? Personally or professionally? You know, what's your pick to get started? Well, personally, I hit a really cool workout, milestone Um. As you know, I'm really into F forty five, which is a functional fitness class, and last week I got a phone call from the owner of the gym personally congratulating me on hitting two hundred classes Um, which I think plays really well into our conversation we're gonna have today with tiny habits. Um Ties back into our conversation we had with never lose a customer again with that, you know, customer experience and and really filling that connection there Um, you know, because I haven't been a member for so long and he still took that time to reach out and give me a personal phone call. Who does that anymore right now? So yes, it was really exciting. Well, I've seen Jay bear recently writing about a doctor, a physician more so, a dentist who is, I believe, in the New Jersey area, and this dentist will make phone calls on Saturday to patients, to new patients who have scheduled appointments the following week, and eight of patients that come in and then they do the follow up survey always reference the phone call from the dentists on Saturday. That wow, the dentist called me. That made me feel really good and it's set a very positive experiences. It places the posit into their trust fund that sits between their ears and so now when they're in the chair there are a lot more comfortable, the anxiety has dissipated and it's just it's those small little touches, those tiny touches that are really rooted deeper into tiny habits that have exponential growth potential on the other side. And and and to me, it's my hope within financial services that financial brands, we can develop process uses and systems and coaching that empower people, that empower account holders and consumers at large to develop tiny habits that guide them beyond the financial stress taking a toll on their health, on their well being and on their relationships, to get them to a bigger, better, brighter future. So let's let's get into tiny habits and just kind of give us a general overview of the book before we dive into a couple of specific areas of focus today. Sure. So, tiny habits is really all about making things easy, because the easier behavior is to do, the more likely you are to repeat it Um and then it will become a habit. So it's really about starting small, smallest sustainable, smallest repeatable, and really finding ways to hack, hack the system, Hack your behaviors and and manipulate your environment to work in your favor. And there's so much practice reality here... regards to financial services, because if you think about a an individual's financial lives, the vast majority of it is habitual and great case in point right now, I am drinking a starbucks coffee. I stopped drinking starbucks for a very long time to support local business, but for some reason the habit has crept back in. Why? Because of how easy starbucks has made it to buy a coffee, not have to wait in line, through their APP and then you literally go in and pick it up. So now that I have this mindful awareness, which we'll talk about how that's all plays back in a little bit later on, if we wanted to transform our habits and our behaviors. It all is interconnected. And so, for the dear listener thinking about this, think about your finance brand or Fintech and where might there be opportunities to facilitate the development of tiny habits? And I think it all boils down to starting here with what we'll call the anatomy of a tiny habit, because tiny habits are made up of three different elements. What are these elements, audrey? So you have the anchor moment, and that is something just simply to remind you to to do the behavior, to act. Then you have the actual small behavior, which is a very, very simple version of whatever it is, whatever behavior it is that you want to create. Something as small as you know, doing two push ups in the morning, and then you have the instant celebration, which I think is the key in all of this, because that is the easiest thing to forget. But I think giving yourself that, that sense of pride, Hey, I accomplish this, that's what keeps you coming back for more. You want that feeling of accomplishment again. So you're likely to repeat these behaviors over and over again, and and it's that that sense of accomplishment. It's really where what we coach. Progress is far greater than perfection. We want to celebrate the progress and I like the idea of the anchor. It's the reminder and if you think about in financial services, that might be the notification in an APP Um. Then once you reach a certain milestone, you might get another celebratory element. No, case in point here. Uh, you you got the phone call from your coach at the gym, the owner, uh, celebrating the progress in the milestone that you achieved. And what that does? It it hits us with a little bit of dopamine. It feels good and when it feels good we want to keep coming back for more, which is why, come back to the case of starbucks. You know they've got they've really hacked the system. They've hacked the mind in multiple ways. They've reduced the friction of buying a coffee, but we even know the caffeine is an addictive substance and so, for lack of a better words, starbucks is just a glorified, publicly traded drug dealer. Well, you know, habit formation is really rooted deeply in behavior and, as B J notes in the book, Um, aspiration. I want, I want to, I really want to make a distinction here between aspiration because you know, a lot of us we aspire for a goal or a new, new, new something to be even better than what we were before. And then there's behavior and aspiration, and behavior is different. What's the difference and why is it important to make the distinction here? So I think you know, we tend to blame ourselves when we can't make change happen. You know we're we're hard on ourselves, naturally, Um, but B J Fogg, you know, reminds us it's not you, it's the system, it's the approach that you're taking. You are not the problem, you're not failing. So I think in order to really understand the system. It's important to get clear on aspirations versus behaviors. So, you know, aspirations, these these are not concrete things. These are very abstract desires and things that can't be achieved in any given moment. You know, you can't suddenly achieve better sleep or you can't suddenly achieve weight loss. And so I think when we have these vague goals and we don't have the clear plan of how we're going to achieve those goals, you're less likely to stay the course and stay motivated, and so it tends to seem unattainable. Um. But if you're thinking about the behaviors, what behaviors do I have to do to reach that goal? Um, then you know you're setting yourself up for more success. So behaviors are those small things that you can do at any given time, right away. Uh. So, you know, if if you're...

...if you're aspiring to get better sleep, well, the small behavior might be simply to put your phone on do not disturb every single night, and that is you know, it's easy to do. It takes a couple of seconds. You have your reminder, you know, every time you get in your bed. But you do not disturb on so it's easy to repeat that behavior, it's sustainable, it's not too difficult, and so the more likely that habit will become Um and then that will lead to your better sleep. Yes, and, and I like the distinction here, I aspire to lose weight, I aspire to save more money, and those are very intangible. There you know, I aspire to grow loans and deposits, and we might want to. We could say, okay, well, let's let's make this more of a smart gold where it's specific and measurable, it's attainable, it's realistic, it's time bound. Okay, so you know I want to lose ten pounds or you know I want to say a thousand dollars, whatever it might be. But if you start reverse engineering that and we don't focus on the aspiration but we focus on the behaviors needed to get to that aspirational point, I think it it becomes much easier, it becomes much more clear. For example, you know run marathons and it's been a while and I'm like, I want to run another marathon. I need that big goal to aspire too. But for some reason there's a mental block in my mind right now to where I have said I'm not gonna worry about the marathon. I'm gonna just run a lap round a block, because three laps around the block that equals one mile. Because for me I have found that if I get out there and I run one lap, I'm not just gonna run one lap, I'm gonna run two and that two is gonna become three, and there's a mile and I'm not just gonna run one mile, I'm gonna run three miles and then that three miles becomes five and then ten. But what does it all begin with? It all begins with that simple step. And then once you come back, it's it's that reward, is the celebration, it's the dopamine hit that I get from the fitness. Is the dopamine hit that I get from the exercise. Right exactly, and I can relate to that. You know, there's oftentimes where I'm not motivated, I don't feel like going to the gym, but I will tell myself just get in the car, drive there and walk in the door. That's it. That's all you're gonna tell yourself. You have to do, walk in the door and the rest is bonus. From there and nine times done of tin. I end up, you know, giving it a d per cent, and I'm proud of myself for doing that. But I think it's just giving yourself that permission to not, you know, buy it off more than you feel like you can shoot at the time. Just just get in there, open the door and walk in and I can guarantee you you're going to surprise yourself. Digital growth is a journey from good too great, but sometimes this journey can feel confusing, frustrating and overwhelming. The good news is you don't have to take this journey alone, because now you can join a community of growth minded marketing and sales leaders from financial brands and fin techs who are all learning, collaborating and growing together. VISIT DIGITAL GROWTH DOT com slash insider to learn more about how you can join the digital growth insider community to maximize your future digital growth potential. Now back to the show. You know, I think the idea of aspiration versus behavior. It's important to make this distinction as well within the realm of financial services, because there's such a correlation between health and fitness and financial health and financial well being. It's a lot of times it's the aspiration isn't the future right, and the future for many of us might not feel so clear Um, especially now with everything that's going on, all of the challenges and the conflicts that we've experienced in the past couple of years that I predict that we're gonna experience probably through and I say that not from a pessimistic point of view, but really to provide some perspective. I'm reading a book right now called the fourth turning and it and it provides insight into the cyclical patterns of basically societal change, and that there are four seasons that you know, if we look back at history, we've all gone through periods of Spring and summer and fall, and right now we're really in a period of of winter, Um. And if you think about the seasons in in winter and and this is even ancient wisdom written in the book of Ecclesiastes Uh in the Bible, you know, everything has a season, everything has a time, but winter does not last forever, Um, because what comes after winter? What comes...

...after the darkness? It is the light, it is the spring, it is it is rejoicing. But then what happens is we tend to get complacent Um and we and we take for granted what we have, and then that moves us back into a season of summer where we get lazy. We we think about the lazy days of summer and then that moves us into the period of fall, which is then repeats back itself into the winter. But I I'm I say this because if you think about being in a winter time, it's very hard to think about the future. But that's why the idea of mindset, of hope, of optimism is so critically I think it's gonna be even more important over the next decade for us as individuals, as teams, as organizations, to then allow that hope and optimism to spill over into our account holders lives within financial services, because if we're setting goals for an unseen future, well, we might make decisions today that, yeah, they feel good today, but they're gonna hurt us going forward. And that doesn't matter if it's a financial decision or if a decision about health. And so when we when we we shift our focus from the future state and focus on the behavior in the present moment, eventually we will achieve that positive future state, right sure. So, going back to your starbucks that five, six, seven dollar starbucks didn't feel like a financial hit today, but compounded every day for a month, you're gonna add that up and and feel you're gonna feel that and and and that's one reason to like, I stopped and I'm still I sound like an addict, like I stopped and then I started it again, and and then, and then I feel a bit of frustration, Um and I mean maybe even like to a degree shame, like come on, man, you know better than this. Yeah, there's there's a little bit of guilt tied to this, because I'm like, you don't need to do this. But once again, it it really is the tiny habit that starbucks has created for so many that, if, if we can establish tiny habits and financial services for good, that is that is really where we put the transformation of people over the transaction of dollars and cents. And and now that we really have a and we've talked through this through a couple different lenses, an understanding of the difference between an aspiration and then, more importantly, a behavior and why behavior is so critical, to really consider what, what are the three factors that influence behavior that bj wrote about in the book yeah, so I think it's really important to take time and and pick apart these three different factors when you're trying to build your behavior. And B J fogg visualizes it with the equation, which I know you appreciate this, James Robert. He has, he says, be equals and AP or be equals map motivation, ability and prompt and I think you know, starting with motivation, there's a little bit of misconception when it comes to motivation, because it's easy to be motivated. Um, it doesn't take a lot. But motivation alone just doesn't yield the results because it's it's the least predictable, it's the least sustainable. Um, so it's really not as important as as we think it is. I mean we you know, we can all aspire to get a promotion or aspire to be financially stable, but you know what is the plan? And so you know motivation is great for those quick sprints quitting your job or, Um, you know, something along those lines. But I think having those high levels of motivation just are not sustainable. So and it's not it's not your fault, you know you're not. You're not doing anything wrong. It's just that's the way life is. And so you know, B J fogg talks about working around the motivation monkey, which is where the other two factors comes in, ability and prompt. And the ability is is, how easy is it for you to do? How realistic is it for you to do? If it's not, if a task is too hard, you're gonna need a lot of motivation. Um. But we know that motivation isn't sustainable. So if a task is easy to do, you don't need as much motivation. Um. Brushing your teeth is easy, so you're less likely to forget, no matter how tired you are before bed, to brush your teeth to where it's so easy that you don't need a lot of motivation to do it. Um. You know, not setting being extreme and over committing to something. You know, talking about a marathon, you did not go outside and say I'm just gonna run six miles. You're not gonna be able to do that every single day. It's just not sustainable. So I think, you know, really finding something that is easy for you to do. Um. And then he talks about the prompt. A prompt is something that uh, prompts you to make an action. So whether it's an external prompt, like in a long arm goes off, or, you know, an action...

...prompt, which is when you when you do X, you follow it up with Z. You know, when you drink your coffee, you take your vitamins. That's your way of getting your vitamins in every day. Those are a lot more reliable because it's a forcing function. Um, you know it's challenging to take your vitamins every single day because you're probably your schedule is always different. But guess what, you probably have coffee every single day. So if you follow that coffee up with your vitamins, you're not likely to forget motivations. Like a muscle, it will tire over time and that's why, back to your point before, some days you just don't simply feel motivated to go to the gym. Um, other days you feel highly motivated. And if we, if we, if we plant our flag into creating a bigger, better, brighter future on the idea and the ideal of motivation, we'll probably never ever get there. And that's where I like point of ability, because ability, or really I would say even capability, is it. It increases our level of confidence and I think a couple of things need to to to to really be considered when it comes to ability or capability. You know, we might have a future state that we want to create for ourselves, whether that be personally or professionally, and we understand what that future state is. But what stands in the way is the bottleneck, it's the roadblock Um and, as ancient stoic wisdom notes many times, the obstacles. Ryan Holliday wrote in the book the obstacle is the way or the roadblock. The roadblock is the path forward. It's just we have to to learn, we have to gain clarity of how to work around that particular roadblock or obstacle standing in our way. So that's where I think trade provides that clarity, because once you get clear about something and the confusion begins to dissipate, that builds our courage to commit, to move forward with confidence. But just because you're moving forward with confidence, that kind of ties back into motivation. Our motivation most likely will experience a dip into decline as time proceeds. That is then where the prompt comes back into play, and this is the whole reason I am one hundred percent, I would say, all in on continuing to Empower Financial Brands to bring coaching as a key competency to maximize their digital growth potential. Because, yes, motivation will put that aside. Ability. If someone is wanting to say eve and approve their financial well being, we can create the ability to do so with we'll call them APPS, and I'm just gonna use APPS, generally mobile banking APPs, and it might be an automated round up system built within the APP. So it's kind of the you know, you spend a dollar or fifty, well, we'll round it up automatically gets dumped into savings and I think the more that you put some of the stuff on autopilot, the better it becomes. But but that does not change what we were talking about before. That does not change behavior. That does not change the behavior of the spending patterns that are so deeply ingrained in people's, you know, uh, subconscious mind. And this is where the prompts can come back into play. We're like, oh well, can't you just do prompts through an APP? No, no, you could, but I'm I'm I'm betting on human behavior here. Is that desire in that present moment will far surpass whatever the goal is. For the future state. And so what do we do? We fall back on what is comfortable, what makes us feel good in the present moment, where the prompt now comes from a coach. The prompt is the human connection of accountability, which will far surpass any APP, any AI, any automation, and and that to me, is the path forward. Now, we can support and supplement some of of the humanity of coaching and accountability and human prompts with AI and automation, but AI and automation alone is not the answer here. Yeah, I think you nailed it when you said when you link the prompt to being the accountability piece, that is one I think spot on. Um. You know, when you're thinking about auto depositing into your savings account versus resisting a purchase at a store, I mean the ability they or, like you said, it is so much...

...more challenging to not spend money versus saving money. And when you think about the financial coaches being that prompt, and you mentioned an APP, Um, you know it's a lot. It's a lot easier to, let's say, lie to an APP or not be honest and truthful than it is face to face to a person, because you're not gonna want to, you know, disappoint or or not that it's you know, not that they would care, but it's so much more difficult to look somebody in the eyes and say, yeah, I didn't do well or I need help than it is, you know, a piece of technology. Now, you know, I'm looking here at my phone and you know this. I I took email off my phone, I took social media off my phone, I took my web browser off my phone because of particular habits and exactly that I had. But then I look here and I have other APPs lie. I have, um, the whim hoff APP, I have the the hallow meditation APP, I have uh, the my life meditation APP. I don't get prompts because I turned the prompts off because I get I get so annoyed and distracted with a D D that if my phone was constantly prompting me to do something, it increases my stress. And so what I've done is I've made my smartphone a dumb phone so that it works for me as opposed to I work for it. So I think there's a lot to be said that, even with props coming from an APP, we can easily turn those off. Yeah, I mean, I think removing a prompt um to achieve a behavior is just as important as responding to a prompt. I mean, if you want to lose weight, well, remove the prompts from your pantry or your refrigerator. It's you know, take things away, just like you did with your your email on your phone. That is a way to have the behavior as well. Yes, and, and I think you know from you know, flipping this around on the other side of of of an example of where I'm using technology to try to at least gain some awareness. Um, I downloaded an APP called drink control. I'm curious to see what my alcohol consumption is, Um, and then from there make some you know, maybe optimizations, modification. I don't know, like it right now. I'm in a this is a whole new experiment for me, because I'm one that is wanting to always learn. But I know it's what I'm writing about making on change. You know, if we're too to to continue to maximize our exponential growth, it all comes down to one thing. We have to act, and in the very first letter in that acronym, act a C T, it is to climb to the apex of awareness, of Mountain Monttio. It's it's really looking at where we're at and and right now I don't really have any clarity or awareness of what my alcohol consumption behaviors are. Um, and, and that's what I'm wanting to just gain some insight. And that's where I'm using technology to kind of being to documents some of this Um and we'll see. It's a you know, it's an experiment. I'm curious to hear how that goes to keep us posted. Well, I mean because you know, it's like now that things are opening back up, you know I'm traveling more and you know I'll get a glass of Scotch on the plane or and then, like you, you know, you go to a cocktail and I'm like this, and we know alcohol is a poison. Um, it is not good for us. And well, you can make the argument on the medical side. Well, you know, glass of wine. There's been studies showing and it's just conflicting points of view and I'm like look everything in moderation. But then it's like I don't have awareness into this area of my life because, you know, for the past two years we're kind of at home and now that I'm back in doing more social drinking. I'm like, I don't feel as good as I did and I'm I have a hypothesis and I'm not sleeping as good as it was, because we know alcohol disturbed sleep. So, therefore, let's climb to the top of the apex of awareness and let's just look because once you once you gain that awareness, then you can move to the sea, which is is making the commitment to move forward one way or another. Otherwise you fall back into cave of complacency and then you get stuck repeating the predictable past. Yeah, I think that awareness is so key because, you know, we're we're busy people, we're we are running around all today, we've got families and jobs and we don't take the time, most of us, to sit down and stop and really create that level of awareness. You know, you think about your Diet, how many of you have set down and written down everything you consume that day? Um, you'd probably be shocked to see...

...or or calculate your calories, your your intake. who takes the time to really do that? So we lack the awareness to even know where to start with these new behaviors. So, Um, my wife, Delina, who you know so well. She she has really and this was kind of a covid experiment for her and she is so uh, she's she's kind of like Anti Tac two degree, because she she sees the dangers of addiction and I think a lot of it has just been living with me and some of my struggles on that front. But it's she's been using my I think it's my fit foods. Is the APP, and she is pretty good about logging all of because she was she was wanting to to get get even more fit, she was wanting to lean up. But he had hit a plateau and she works out pretty frequently, but she had hit a plateau and she was like stuck. And so she was talking to a friend of ours who is a nutritionist and they got into the whole conversation about macros and was like how do you do this? So she said, get my fit foods. You kind of plug out what your goals are, what your fitness goals are, and then your weight and your age and kind of these other baseline data points and then they'll provide you with a plan and then you can track your Macros, which is what your carbs, your fats and your proteins. I believe it shows you how much I actually know about this stuff. Probably could be another area of optimization of my life, but I'm not there yet. She is and I'm inspired because she really does a great job and the props I do see, the prompts, do come back into play because she gets prompts from the APP saying you haven't logged your lunch or you haven't logged your dinner yet, and they make it easy, because I've been on that APP for and they make it so easy to select the foods, even if you're at restaurants. There's a plenty of restaurants who are tied to that APP where you can lock specific entrees as you order, and I actually did this exercise years ago and it got to the point I was doing it every single day and after a while it just became such a habit the way I was eating and I was remembering the different food items and it got to the point where I didn't even need the APP anymore because I had transformed my behaviors to eat certain things throughout the day, and I'm not saying every single day, but generally speaking I knew what I could intake or not intake to reach that level, that goal I was looking for. Well, you know, it's it's that idea of the prompt is now increasing your ability over time to where it becomes second nature, it becomes the new habit because you're and that's they get in a deeper conversation around brain plasticity and the ability to to reprogram Um your mind and and your behaviors. But I think what it all boils down to, Um, is the desire to transform a behavior, an action, a habit. It has to be greater than the desire to remain the same. And more times than not we do that when something hurts and because we typically don't change until something hurts enough that we want to make the change. Coming back to the point of budgeting, and this is this is a perspective, I think, for the dear listener to consider. Um, I was reading a book written by P t Barnum so Um, who was, you know, characterized in the world's greatest showman, and he wrote this book. I want to say it was like in the eighteen eighties, and it's interesting forty five years later he's writing about the same challenges of human behavior that we're all experiencing today and one of the things he was talking about from a budgeting standpoint, I'm like, AH, this is interesting, because no one likes to budget. Budget is like tracking your macros. But I have a hypothesis here. The way he framed this down is from a budget is I think we've overcomplicated it. Now platforms like Mint dot com and PFM and and Gzo, you know, they have all brought budgeting to the forefront. It sits within online banking, mobile banking, but it still requires you to go in and and input some type of data or do some type of filing, and that requires motivation to get started. But kind of like my fit food, PFM will remember a lot of that stuff. So it takes once you kind of get the established framework down, and maybe that's where are also like some accountability to get...

...started with a Pfm over the first ninety days, which is like the most critical period of on boards. Just called it onboarding. It's the it's the accountability during that time period from the human perspective that might actually increase number one, the adoption, number two of the usage and the number three the retention of a of a PFM platform. But coming back to what P T barnum was writing about. He said budgets, it's so simple. It's two columns. You literally you document everything that you spent. And this was written, like I said, I think the eighties and you and you flag it necessity or a want. Do I need this or do I want this? And he said Your one column will be three to four times law younger than what you need and I said, oh my gosh, maybe this is a way to simplify budgeting in a very simple format, to create some awareness into the spending patterns and behaviors that we have, because when we begin to visually see, wow, my need column is two, three or four times longer than my want. My I'm sorry, my one column is two, three four times longer than my need column. What changes, then do I need to make so needs versus once some ancient, quote unquote, ancient wisdom coming from P T barnum? And and this is where bj brings up a couple of questions in the book Um and we've kind of danced around some of this. We were talking about awareness and one of the questions that B J writes about is the discovery question. What's the discovery question and how does it provide clarity. So when you're thinking about a new behavior, it's really, you know, asking yourself what is making this behavior so hard to do and really think about it. Is it you know, you don't have enough time to do the behavior, or maybe you don't have enough money to do the behavior? Are you physically capable of it? Does it require a lot of energy? So figuring out what makes it challenging for you and then turning around and say, okay, well, how can I make this easier, which is the breakthrough question. What can I do if it's a lack of time? Well, where can I find the time? Where can I create the time or buy back some time in my day? Or, you know, is it not fitting in my routine? Okay, well, can I realistically change my routine to make it fit, or do I need to now change my behavior to then go fit into my routine? I'm glad you brought up to the point of time, because that you've been hearing this on coaching calls. I've been hearing this on coaching calls. There's been a pattern of of time, Um, a lament that, oh, we're so busy, we don't have enough time, time, we don't enough time. Let's put this in a perspective. Here. Elon Musk, Jeff bezos, um. They have the same twenty four hours a day, seven days a week, thirty one days in a month, sixty five days in a year, that every single one of us has. It's how I in and in and from the research that I've been reading on a lot of these characters, it's how they look at end view time. Time is the great equalizer, but I think also time can be a multiplier, and what I mean by that, particularly with the use of digital technologies, Um, the ability to multiply time. Take this podcast, for example. Takes me an hour or so of my time, but it's gonna, you know, reach thousands and thousands of years over time. How much time? How much time would it require me to go and do that in the real world, quote unquote, meaning go to a conference speak to an audience of a thousand people? Well, you're talking day, day and a half, two days by the time that you fly there fly back. And then there's the energy drain, and I think that's the other thing. Time is closely correlated with energy, because your energy and a lot of times, you know, the question that we ask is okay, well, how are you spending your time? And I think that's the wrong question to ask. The better question to ask is how are you investing your time, and that simple mental refrain will start to show time as an investment, because what you invest in time today, and I was talking about this recently...

...with Kathy on the podcast, is is training an education. What we invest in training and education today will be a multiplier that pays off going forward in the future. But the reason that we resist training and education today is because it's you know, that payoff will will not be instantaneous. There are more urgent, important matters that we believe. We've we've we've lied to ourselves that these matters are more important and urgent. Well, then it becomes a cost. So we're not investing in our future, we're not investing our time, and what's happening is then we're spending our energy and our energy gets depleted. And ultimately, I think the last question to ask on this is what are we paying attention to? So time, energy and attention all come back to this idea of behavior. Have your modification, because what we pay attention to is what we're gonna get back in our lives. I love the idea of thinking about time as an investment. You know, we we practiced the Ninety Day growth methodology here, where we get together once every ninety days and dedicate an entire day just to strategy and goal setting. And you know, we'll hear an entire day. That is a that is eight, you know, nine hours. What are you getting out of it? Are we walking away with anything tangible? No, but we are investing in the next ninety days. That is a very, very valuable day. And yes, it's the entire day, but what are we getting on the return? We'll guess what in the next ninety days we're gonna have achieved and we're gonna have grown more than we had prior if we hadn't taken that time and dedicated an entire day, turned our emails off, canceled all of our meetings and focused on the future. Well, it's not even that. You know, we we start off the first hour by celebrating what's been going well, and it comes back to how we opened up this conversation here. It's we. We are taking time to celebrate those winds, to to recognize the progress that was made over the previous ninety day period and you say, are we walking away with anything? I wouldn't say like there's an immediate, like tangible, quote unquote, result, but we're planting seeds, were making investments of how we will grow over the next ninety days and then once again repeat the process, pause, look back and reflect on the progress that we made over that time period, which is this is the methodology that that I want to teach financial brands first and foremost, to implement internally with their own teams, build that that level of capability, build that level of confidence to then let that bleed over into a coaching methodology for their account holders, so that they're reconnecting every ninety days with account holders. And it can be done at an individual level, um, but I'm really seeing that there's potential here to do this at a group level and bringing together a group of account holders, you know, grouping them in a cohort of sorts, so that that you create that space and time. And if and if you're you're listening to this, I think that's a kind of a far off, wild idea. No, it's not. The Financial Jim out of New York has been doing this since, I believe, and they charge a monthly membership of around dollars a month Um, but the value creation on the other side is the fact that they save their members on average five to six thousand dollars a year. Why? Awareness and two behaviors and then two. They read. They increase credit scores by about fifty points or so, which then creates more savings over the life you know, better credit score, better rate on loans, and so it's all interconnected. I want to get your take on this, because our habits really in fluence and really even more deeply predict our future. What do you see when it comes two opportunities through, you know, deploying tiny habits that can be applied to financial coaching at financial brands or Fintech? I think when thinking about your behaviors and the tiny habits method, it is not a one size fits all idea. It is very personalized, it is very customized to that unique individual. We don't all have the same routine or abilities, capabilities, and so I think when a financial coach, there's the opportunity there to really personalize your behaviors and what you can accomplish, because you can't, just, like you said, pick up a book and and and budget. I mean it's it looks different for everybody, and so having that person who really kind of gets to know you, your routine, your behaviors. I think that's where the opportunity... to really customize these new habits or your behaviors to achieve those habits and and using the data and using technology as a supporting mechanism, but not the end all be all, bringing the humanity back in and and that's where putting the transformation of people beyond the commoditized transaction of dollars. And since I see coaching, uh, it has the potential to be the transformative element, the transformative experience, because the checking account is, in fact, we know it's commoditized, but it's coaching that empowers the financial brand to transcend the commoditized checking account and and and and really developing a culture, developing a culture of coaching. This starts internally and and that's one of the reasons, you know, I get questions from from people, why are you not, you know, doing this today and and and bringing a program like this to the market for financial brands? And I don't think that financial brands are there yet. We have to build a culture of coaching first, for that Culture of coaching to then bleed over into the account holder market, into the community market, because if we try to jump that that step, because the way that I study this has been through the intersection of marketing, sales, technology and human behavior, and I'm also looking at digital transformation in connection to human transformation, human behavior transformation, and we see of digital transformation projects failing or failing to be expectations, not because of technology but because of of the human element. And we try to push that transformation from a organizational level into a team level, from a team level into an individual level. And that's where, if we try to do the same thing and develop a culture of coaching at an or level into the team, team and the individual, it's gonna the results are gonna be the exact same. And so the only way that that this type of thinking can really flourish is by transforming from the inside out and not from the outside in. Transformation must begin from within, at the individual level, and then the team, because teams are made up of individuals, organizations are made up of teams, and once this type of thinking is the cultural norm at an organization, then and only then can it truly be integrated and adopted as the overall experience within a community, within a group of account holders. So I'm curious, Um what, what could hold a financial brand back from really committing to and developing a culture of of of coaching rooted into any habits? I think it comes down to our conversation before about time and really viewing time as an investment. I think the biggest roadblock were the biggest challenge that we hear is there's just not enough time to dedicate to coaching, to dedicate to learning and training about coaching. So it's not just setting the time apart to to implement, but it's learning and we don't give ourselves that time to train and educate and discover the new opportunities or or optimize our current program Um, we we end up getting kind of stuck in the day to day and and repeating the same behaviors and patterns. So I really do think it comes down to time and creating that awareness of how you're spending your time. Where can you, you know, invest that time more into the future, because we do get stuck and we don't give ourselves that time to really think and and think far into the future. What can we achieve in the future versus just, okay, how many accounts that we open today, tomorrow, or how many loves? How much have you getting loan to deposits? It's easy to get stuck in that mindset and and the idea. I think three questions to leave the dear listener with when it comes to just your own maximizing your own personal exponential growth. An exponential growth is where you're growing personally and professionally at the same exact time. How are you investing your time? Is it really focused on the present moment or because, if not, then the investment isn't a good investment. It's like any investment that we make. It's a long term payback period. We all want the shortcut and there's a lot of emotion gets tied up into it. That's why people get scammed so easily, because we were looking for that quick fix. It's not there. It takes time, it takes energy, and that's the question. What are you spending your energy on? Because energy can be quickly, the plea did. Or...

...if you're working in a state of flow or focused on you know something, a cause, a purpose greater than the present moment, your energy will deplete and a and a much slower rate. We talked about a lot about energy, Audrey, in our podcast, about Kolbe right and and where are you spending that energy? Because what's once energy is gone, you can't get it back unless you're going to recharge. And then, finally, what are you paying attention to? And I think this right here is so critical for yourself as an individual, yourself as a team and organization, and maybe even the conversations you're having with account holders, because the mindset that that we have, and you know, either positive or negative. The mind can only keep a positive or a negative thought, and the more that we train the mind to focus on the positive, not necessarily ignore ing the negative, but knowing that the negative is what can bring us down and really kill and drain our energy faster than anything else, which will then, you know, waste our time. It's what are we paying attention to? Is it is it positive or is it negative? And I think that right there, if we're aware of what we're paying attention to, has the potential to truly transform our actions, our behaviors, our habits, because what we pay attention to influences are very thought which influences then our beliefs that we make, and then also our emotions that then drive our behaviors, our actions, our habits that lead to our predictable future. If there's one thing that the dear listener could apply from the book, because there's just this is the one that I highly recommend. Um Reading as a as an individual, reading as a team, reading as an organization. If there's one thing the dear listener could apply from your perspective, Audrey, to maximize their their their digital growth, to maximize their exponential growth. What would that one thing be, audrey? I think it's really setting apart the time to really sit down and look at your goals, look at your behaviors and your current routine and your schedule and really assess where there are ways to hack your behaviors, really kind of gain awareness of how you're spending your time and your energy. You know, get get really creative. Maybe you're like me and you have to go sit in a car rider line every single day to pick up your children. You know, thirty minutes. What are you doing during that thirty minutes? Are you sitting and scrolling on facebook or social media, or can you hack your time spend that thirty minutes maybe getting caught up on your emails or listening to a professional you know, a podcast for some professional development, Um, you know, and buy back those thirty minutes in your work day that maybe you can and then even apply to something else. Not only are you are you maximizing your time, for example in this car rider line with with, you know, a podcast or emails, but then you've also bought that time back in your regular day too then focus on another behavior. So that's where you see that exponential growth. And I think it's all about hacking the system. You know, I'm a single mother of a four year old and a sever year old. I worked full time and I survive on hacking the system and really trying to find ways to work smarter and not harder. Yeah, it really is. And that's a great example about the car writer Aligne. It's exactly why I listened to so many podcasts, audio books. When I go for a run, because I know that I have thirty, forty five minutes an hour of not just taking care of my physical body, but I'm also really you know what am I paying attention to? I'm paying attention two things. In making deposits in to not only my conscious mind but, I think, more importantly, my subconscious mind. That will really influence my behavior is, more than anything else, considering the fact that behaviors, our actions, our habits are rooted in subconscious programming, that it's that that time multiplier of running and being physically active while also being mentally active, growing the mind to learn something new so that I can continue to be even better than what I was before. Day In, day out, and sometimes in the day and and the day out, it's like I'm not getting anywhere. But when you look back over a week, over a month, over a quarter, over a year, over a decade, that's when you start to climb up the mountain like wow, I really, really really have come a long way, or it's like man, I really haven't moved. And not beat yourself up because of that, but ask...

...yourself the hard questions. What do I need to do to transform my behaviors? And it all starts with small, simple, tiny habits. Audrey, this has been a great conversation. Thanks again for going behind the cover with me today. What what is the best way for someone to connect with you? Reach out and say hello. Yeah, please say hi to me. Reach out on Linkedin. Love hanging out on Linkedin. Send Me Your Book Recommendations. Let's let's have a conversation and, yeah, look forward to seeing uh, some of you listeners there. Connect with Audrey, learn with Audrey, grow with Audrey. Audrey, thank you so much for joining me for another conversation. What are we discussing next? That is a great question, James Robert. I don't have the answer for you right now. Okay, well, well, we'll definitely have another another book. There's were we we do not have a shortage of books at all that we are reading here and discussing, so I'm looking forward to it. Until next time and, as always, be well, do good and make your bed. Thank you for listening to another episode of banking on digital growth with James Robert Lay. To get even more practical and proven insights, along with coaching and guidance, visit digital growth dot com slash insider to join a community of growth minded marketing and sales leaders from financial brands and fin techs. Until next time, be well and do good.

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