Banking on Digital Growth
Banking on Digital Growth

Episode · 1 year ago

86) #ExponentialInsights: Stop Pushing Messages & Start Creating Dialogue


How many times has your financial institution thanked you? They’ve probably just pushed messages without trying to create dialogue. Huge mistake.

In this Exponential Insights episode of Banking on Digital Growth, I interview Paula Tompkins, CEO/Founder at ChannelNet, about creating relationships and expressing appreciation.

What we talked about:

- Actually thanking your customers and members

- How to use technology to dialogue

- Implementing agile methodologies in a post-Covid world

- A roadblock is the lack of understanding what is possible

Resource we mentioned:

- White paper referenced at 16:45

You can find this interview and many more by subscribing to Banking on Digital Growth on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, or here.

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for Banking on Digital Growth in your favorite podcast player.

...using the digital to put the person in need with the person that can help them is so important. Mm You're listening to banking on digital growth. With James robert lay a Podcast that empowers financial brand marketing, sales and leadership teams to maximize their digital growth potential by generating 10 times more loans and deposits. Today's episode is part of the exponential insight series where James robert interviews the industry's top marketing sales and fintech leaders sharing practical wisdom to exponentially elevate you and your team. Let's get into the show greetings and hello, I am James robert, ley and welcome to the 86 episode of the Banking on digital Growth podcast. Today's episode is part of the exponential insight series and I'm excited to welcome Paula Tompkins to the show. Paula is the founder and the Ceo of Channel Net. She is an acknowledged pioneer using personal technology to facilitate multi channel marketing and cells. Over the last 30 years, Paula has helped hundreds of the world's leading companies grow by using technology to build customer relationships and sell even more products. And now she's bringing that experience, that expertise to grow financial brands, banks and credit unions. Welcome to the show Paula. Well, thank you, I'm delighted to be here. It is good to have you and it's, it's good to catch up. We've had a lot of great conversations over the last year and as we reflect on that last year and really look ahead in this post covid world that we've all been moving through together. I think we're seeing the light at the other end of the tunnel. What is one thing that you're just excited about right now, personally or professionally? Well over the last year, you know, at first it was a scary period. I think for all of us, we didn't know what was going to happen and it really does create an opportunity in every dark cloud, in every bad situation. Things just really start to improve. And it causes you to think a lot deeper about what you're doing, where you're going, what you want, your solution to be and what it can be. And during the covid period we had a tremendous, all of our clients were desperate for help and we were able to very quickly turn around information and messaging to their customers and members instantly on, you know, with surveys on, you know, how was the pandemic affecting them and going out and talking to them about the status of their local branch and helping them sort of get back on their feet in terms of how they're communicating. It also opened up an opportunity for us to delve into very deep partnerships and uh, that has been a real boost because it's expanded the number of use cases and things we can do for our banks and credit unions exponentially. Absolutely. And to hear you review and reflect on that, think about what you're doing, how you're doing it, how it can be even better. I think you're tapping into something to that. I'm hearing a lot about from financial brand leaders is they're taking a moment to pause to think and reflect why they're doing what they're doing to begin with in the first place. And you mentioned collaboration to me, I see collaboration is one of the benefits of coming out of this post Covid world that we're still navigating through. But it's it's it's there's been a shift maybe just at a conscious level, at a subconscious level that maybe competition is looking at the... through the lens of scarcity where I see there's still so much abundance, there's so much opportunity to help transform the lives of people in the communities that financial brands serve. And you talk about thinking, thinking about our thinking, reflecting over not just the past year, but you bring a tremendous amount of experience and expertise to 30 years. Look back over that last 30 years, just on your own personal journey, how is the role of marketing and cells transformed the most for financial brands? I would say that there was um when we first began working with large corporations back in the, in the mid to late eighties, we worked with in those days, it was called Chase Manhattan Bank and others. And they were very willing in those days to do some level of experimentation. And it was literally experimentation almost like R and D of new things that they wanted to try. And then the recession hit in the, you know, early nineties, and all the marketing budgets were pulled in. There was no experimenting whatsoever. And everybody was, you know, back in the trenches. And I've just observed a lot of these brands still caught up in the old way, right? And talking about, you know, being slaves to their agencies, still doing a lot of television radio, not so much print as much as they used to, but what's replaced that is all this google ads and adwords and everything they can do to acquire new customers. They aren't doing anything to mine the existing customer base. And it's shocking to me. And I've watched the auto industry just spend their entire history trying to get cell the next car. Right. Well, what about the person that just bought the car? What are we doing to build a relationship with them? And it's siloed and it's choppy internally and this group owns that and it's still politics and they still don't look at their customer base holistically try to identify life events, try to identify points of pain. People need help. What about a disaster? You went through one down there where you lost your power and you've probably been through floods and hurricanes and has any of your financial institutions reached out to you and said, how can I help? Absolutely not. And that to me, what you're talking about. You know, financial brands spend an enormous amount of money to attract to acquire new accounts. But then, and I've seen this with my own eyes there bleeding out accounts on the back end and sometimes they're grey accounts, meaning that the count is open but it's not active. They're not utilizing it And to come back in a moment of crisis as is you're referencing the ice apocalypse of 2021 down here in Texas. What an amazing opportunity just to reach out. How might I be able to help you? How might I be able to be of service to you even? And it's not selling anything. It's just asking a simple question. How about this? Every time a customer opens a new product or service that could be a customer or or a member. Do we even thank them? Oh yeah I can I gotta tell you real time. This is real time research that we're doing right now for a financial brand as part of our digital secret shopping studies. And we look at different areas of the buying journey in this particular case. It is the moment of truth I. E. Conversion. So we're...

...testing their online account, opening experience against larger financial brands and even against some of the neo banks. And then we're now also testing what happens next. So they either a do they open the account or do they abandon? So what happens when the abandonment happens be if they go through and open the account then what happens, what is the follow up communication and what we're finding real time insights chime? Because china is one of the benchmarks in this study chime is by enlarge the top of mind recall in this study. And we ask, well why, why why is chime? You know, you've you've you've gone through three or four experiences, why does china come top of mine because the way that they're communicating and it's consistent communication, it's ongoing communication. And so I ask is it and we're talking multiple, multiple emails. Probably a good 10 to 12 emails within the 1st 30 days. And I said, is that annoying? Is that frustrating to you? Is it absolutely not because they're not trying to sell anything? They're just saying, hey, have you thought about this? Have you considered this? They're making recommendations. They're checking in. This is what your debit card. I mean it's all we would call it advisory coaching and accountability, not pushing a product down people's throats. That's right, That's right. We go the next step. And the beauty of going beyond email is we can embed in all our communication, a simple survey, you know, a simple survey. You know, how was your account opening experience? And when they click on that, we know who they are and we instantly send that score back on that individual member or customer. And so the institution, we encourage them to reach out my phone whether it was good, bad or ugly. And so those are the kinds of things were coaching our clients to do. The next thing we do is we constantly are trying to find out what's going on in their lives. What are their life events? Are they thinking about a second home? Are they worried about retirement? Do they think they have enough money saved? We don't dialogue through technology. We still just push messages. And so even if it's thank you for opening the new account or thank you for opening that second account or thank you for signing up for bill pay. Here's how you use it. By the way. How was your experience? And then we can real time report back to the institution. What was that individual member of customers' behavior? And that's where I see a lot of the marketers are missing the point. The other thing we do a lot of is what we call demand sensing through these interactions and triggers. And you know if somebody clicks on a credit app or rates for a new car loan, what are they doing about it? People believe that into a lead. Yeah, people are leaving. So I I like to call it you know either digital bread crumbs or digital exhaust. You know we were able to track an individual's digital behavior and that could be very creepy and there's a whole conversation we can have about privacy and it's almost like you know we can use it like the force and Star Wars, the force is in neutral experience. It can be used for good or it can be used for evil. And to me I see financial brands being able to use it from, from a sense of empowerment and even this idea coming back to what you were talking about acquisition versus diving deeper to create even more value. There was a study that was shared from hubspot that it's 5-25...

...times more expensive to a choir a new customer than it is to retain an existing one. And then the likelihood of selling to a new prospect is only 5-20%. But selling to an existing account holder increases 60-70 because there's already some type of affinity goodwill. But you need to continue to reinforce that correct? That is exactly right. And you know, we talked a little bit about budgets and I don't know if you're anxious to get into that section or not but look we know branches are are shrinking or some of them are going to go away. I mean people now with the new technologies uh they don't need so much in person but they still need help and advice and they still want to look somebody in the eye. So re gearing ourselves around virtual branches or virtual banking is very, very important. They still need to talk to an expert. Listen, I am not an investment planner, right? I mean, I'm busy doing my work every day, so I appreciate being able to talk to my investment advisor. Good. His advice, understand his point of view. Read the white papers they're generating and worried about taxes and the implication of taxes and and you need a human being to help you with that stuff. So that's still very important. And putting using the digital to put the person in need with the person that can help them is so important. And that's going to separate the men from the boys, as we say in in the auto industry, Right? Yeah. And I think you're onto something and it's it's a big part of my teaching and and my advising and my coaching, that this idea of, of digital versus the branch. I don't think that's the right path. It's, you know, I just got into this really good, I would say, just debate and exchange of thoughts and ideas on linkedin from a post that David Horton was a survey that he he had issued and the survey was framed around, you know, if a primary bank closed all the all of its branches, how would you feel about digital only channels for advice issues in customer service and the responses where I'm happy with digital only face to face and branches better or I don't care. And Ron Shevlin came in, he said he had a tough time answering the poll how it was worded. And I agree because there's this is not a binary approach. It's not branch only or digital only, It's combining the human experience through the digital channel. And if someone wants to transition from digital into the branch, we'll give them that path. Don't force them absolutely scheduled meeting. And we're seeing we're seeing a lot of that in health care right now. Absolutely. Now it's interesting. I just had an incident where I needed uh you know, telemedicine and what my doctor told me is, you know what, it's still not three dimensional. And so, you know, he needed to look at my wound, right? And and he couldn't so I had to go to his office, but it's exactly the same. There's sometimes when you just need to sit down, look somebody in the eye, get out all the documents and paperwork and for those that don't feel they need that fine. But it is Omni channel, it is not digital only branch only and bringing those two together in a way to help the member or customers So critical, I want to come back to this white paper that you're referencing around the perspective of of of budget. And it's a really good one because it's, it's about quantifying. And another area that you noted in this white paper for opportunity is that of of measuring the time required to build a personalized digital experience. You framed this around the thinking of...

...agile or what we would call growth sprints. And this is a very different way of thinking and doing for many financial brands up to this point. But it's one that I see as a viable path to really exponential future growth in an ever growing complex digital world. And one of the things that you noted and this is important when it comes to agile or these growth sprints is something called well defined as rapid prototype development but rapid, it's important to to frame and maybe you could dive deeper here rapid. Does that necessarily mean poorly functioning? No, No, No, No. In fact we've been practicing agile methodologies since 2006 and it's what allows our platform to be so flexible and have so many different use cases for our, for our clients are banking and credit union clients and for example, let's say you were going to be hit by a hurricane in texas. Okay now what are we gonna do within a day? We can have a personal experience for all those that are in the path of the hurricane by zip code, by state, by name, by number. By whatever means and we can instantly communicate with them. The branch is going to be closed. Here are some preventative steps you can take if you've got damage, here's an emergency number you can call, we know you have a mortgage with us, make sure all your windows are, would it up so we can get that out same day. Okay, let me ask you a question because you've been practicing rapid prototype development, agile methodology Since 2006 and this is another newer area of focus and operations, not just for marketing, not just for marketing sales, but I think really from a leadership perspective, how can you recommend leadership teams overcome the perceived dangers of working in an agile way? Because before it's always been 3 to 5 year strategic plans and not just doesn't work in this post Covid world. What would you recommend? Because you're a leader? You're a ceo. How can you transform the thinking to really turn and transform ideas over at a much more rapid pace rapid once again, doesn't mean half baked or bad. No, it does not. And here's what I see in the financial services industry. They think they have all the answers internally. They go out and they buy a big platform, they buy Salesforce, they buy whatever, Then they hire 5, 10 people to go and spend 18 months to two years to three years trying to get it up and running and organized. We can do that in 2-3 weeks. Okay. And so what they need to understand is that by versus built, right? And that's a huge, huge area of opportunity. And if they pick the right vendor that understands their business and understands how to help them and has the turnkey approach rather than trying to spend eight months training someone on a tool how to do it in house. That's crazy. That's crazy in today's world. Furthermore, they don't have the expertise, they don't even know what's Possible and that's what's amazing to me after 36 years doing this is they don't have a clue about what's possible that thinking outside the box. And I will tell you that a lot of our clients have really inspired us during this period I mentioned Tropical and the...

...fact that we're now embedding our personal pages into their brand website. So when a known member comes back to that website, we were able to do that in a week. Yeah. You know, like in years. Yeah. Thinking thinking about all of this, this this journey that you've been on, that you've seen your clients the roadblocks, right. I I think you talk about people don't have a clue, and I and I agree, and that's one of the big reasons that were continuously doubling down on just training on education to help leadership teams overcome their fears of the unknown because when you fear the unknown, you can't make those next steps forward on that journey. So training and education is a great way to help the unaware become aware of those future opportunities. Number one and number two give them some hope, give them some inspiration of what others are doing before we get to that point, which which will go there in a minute. What are the biggest or what is the biggest roadblock that you see when it comes to digital data personalization that holds financial brands back from realizing and maximizing their full potential here? I think that it's just, it really is a lack of knowledge and lack of experience and that's why they need to bring an experienced partner on board that can help guide them through the journey and educate them every step of the way. And what what we like to do with our clients is we have at least it depends on the client, but a weekly bi weekly or a monthly meeting to discuss what worked, what didn't, how can we improve? Let's look at the analytics, let's move these pieces around on the page so we can uh let's change the words and let's fine tune. And so we're in a constant state of improvement. And that's another thing agile methodology allows you to do, not just learn how to run the tool and blast out things right, but really dig down And find the secrets that are going to drive the success on an ongoing basis. And what we've learned over 36 years is incredible. What works, what doesn't, what are the road blocks so many times? It's silos, budgets or it's just downright a lack of understanding what's possible. Technology has transformed our world and digital has changed the way consumers shop for and buy financial services forever. Now, consumers make purchase decisions long before they walk into a branch. If they walk into a branch at all, but your financial brand still wants to grow loans and deposits, we get it. Digital growth can feel confusing, frustrating and overwhelming for any financial brand, marketing and sales leader, but it doesn't have to because James robert wrote the book that guides you every step of the way along your digital growth journey, visit www dot digital growth dot com to get a preview of his best selling book banking on digital growth or order a copy right now for you and your team From Amazon inside you'll find a strategic marketing manifesto that was written to transform financial brands and it is packed full of practical and proven insights you can start using today to confidently generate 10 times more loans and deposits now back to the show. I think what you're talking about, I was just having this conversation the other day with Jeffrey Kindle from Nimbus on an event that was hosted by the Financial brand form and we were talking about... versus buy and if you want to build it, You really are looking at 18 24, sometimes 36 months. And there's a lot of pride in that, that ownership. But I would, I want to frame this another way because people are more likely to take action to avoid a loss than they are to achieve a game. There's a hidden cost associate, not just a monetary or a financial cost, there is a massive opportunity cost by trying to build all of this because you're losing the opportunities That you could be creating instantly and then continuously learning from that. I think that's where failure has to be even reshaped internally. That failure is not bad failures are learning opportunity, right? Absolute. And lost opportunity costs if you want to take that 18 months And that million or $2 million or $3 million dollars you're going to spend and then add to that, the fact that over that period of time, you've bled more customers and members, you you've not cross told them you've not met their needs because you're busy building some empire. And by the way, who says that you're going to be able to hire the people that understand what to do and how to get it done in in in an appropriate way. Great point. Because the competition there on attracting talent from what we're seeing from our research isn't just other financial brands. You are competing with sass, you are competing with Aecom and digital retailers. And so you have to be just as compelling if not even more compelling. Just like account holders to attract those that talent but more importantly retain that talent because I've been seeing massive talent shifts post covid people coming in and then moving out of the industry for multiple reasons. Absolutely A. They aren't appreciated be they probably are stuck in some I. T. Department somewhere and you know I mean we need I. T. They're important we need them to be able to manage what they know best and that's the core and all the processes and systems in the background. But they aren't customer experience experts. They aren't usability experts, they don't understand interaction and behavior and when and how to trigger information that's going to be meaningful to that member of customer. So they get frustrated and they can go someplace where it's exciting where they have more freedom and creativity and there's just not a lot of advanced thinking in the in the financial service sector but I think it pulls down to one word and you said this and this is what I hear from marketing teams. And even sometimes sells teams it's just appreciation, we appreciate you for what you're doing to help grow the financial brand. And that's once again it's a lack of awareness and understanding of the role of marketing in this post covid world. It's not about pushing product it's about being an experienced engineer that guides someone beyond their questions and concerns towards the hopes and dreams. But marketing alone can't do this. It's marketing Plus cells plus Ops plus I. T. All supported by a leadership team that believes that marketing is not just a cost center but it's a growth opportunity. Yes. Revenue generation. And it is so funny and I'm not going to name who, but we have some clients where we're driving leads to them on a daily basis for car loans, home loans, debt consolidation loans, personal loans, credit cards, you know, new account openings, you name it and they say, but we can't deal with that internally. We we don't know, we can wake up, take some of those people that are sitting in the branches, waiting on somebody to walk in and make them pick up the phone and call that member or...

...customer. And I see you don't hear the same thing through the coaching and advisory work that we're doing. It's a chicken or the egg, right. Some financial brands want to build the quote unquote digital sells team first, but then they're stuck waiting, you know, for opportunity to fall into their lap. I'm like, no, you drive demand. It's called demand jin and demand marketing for a reason. You create the demand to then fund that operational upgrade and you can transfer talent with some up skilling because it's a little bit of a different skill set that major, but a little bit of a different skill set. That's just simply augmentation. Right? Exactly. You are exactly right. And I know of one of the top five banks that's going down that they have built this enormous call center of quote unquote virtual bankers and they're doing nothing really to drive leads there. It's crazy what they're doing. So the other thing we do is the minute that person we sense the demand, we then not only send that lead back to a designate whether that's a new business development person or a branch or our car loan specialist, but we instantly retarget them with a much deeper, richer experience on that topic. So we give them calculators, we talk about events, you know, if they want to buy their first home, we're going to have a first home seminar or gee here's some educational material you can sign up for and learn all about mortgages and how to qualify a mortgage and what your how your credit is important. So we kind of want to drive them deeper into the funnel right now. How many how many banks and credit unions really though James robert call it a a salesperson. Yeah, no, they don't. It's not a sale. I don't know what it is. Maybe on the B. Two B side, they're more used to trying to sell, but on the consumer side. Well that's a it's a massive, it's a massive shift in thinking and you have to like break this apart. And we do a lot of of transforming the thought process because let's work backwards, a person's habits are informed by their actions, their actions are informed by their behaviors, their behaviors are informed by the words they speak to themselves and to others, which are informed by their belief systems which is then informed by their mindset and they're thinking. So it's like you really have to keep coming back to transforming the mindset to transform the habit. But there's a lot that happens in between that and it's it's taking the idea of cells from a reactive standpoint which is traditionally servicing to taking and leaning into it. Being proactive to become more of an adviser, a guide, a coach, Kind of like what we're doing with with financial brands and their marketing, sales and leadership teams. Doing the same exact thing for account holders. It's one of the biggest growth opportunities that's untapped. I see over the next 3-5 years. Absolutes, absolutely. And the fact that they everybody is all wrapped up in A. I. And A. Ii. Is great. But it's only one factor. Big data is only one factor. The behaviors are what helps to pull that together and glue it together. So it becomes a very informed conversation And loading that quote unquote, whether we call it business development person or whatever with all the information that that customer has given us. Right. They said that they want that to buy that home in the next 6-9 months. Oh good that they've told us to their calculators that they plan to rent, they're currently renting and so now we've got a different level of education here because they're renters, right? We know their age, we know their income because we know all this...

...information about them that is part of their part of the core right information so we can start to stitch all that together and give a very good profile to that person. So they know how to advise that, remember, and coming back to some of the studies that we've been conducting for financial brands through these secret shopping experiences we have found, and we've been asking directly as a follow up exit, would you be interested in getting some type of financial guidance, advisory coaching, accountability and time and time again. The answer is resoundingly yes. And the why money is confusing. Money is complex. Money is overwhelming and it's taking a toll on my health, my relationships, my well being. I want to shift the conversation here slightly because if I'm listening and I got a lot of empathy for for the dear listener, whether they're on the marketing team, the cells team, the leadership team, That's a lot to take in. It really is. It's like drinking from a firehose. I want to give some hope that you know what yeah, this is where things are right now. The good news is it doesn't have to continue to be this way. And you've been doing a lot of good work with financial brands around the country. You've recently shared a story with me about Natasha Natasha from unified credit, you didn't, We have over three billion in assets, they're serving over a quarter million account holders around the country. And I think one of the things that excites me most about Natasha story is how her own perspective has transformed from being a product pusher to really bringing together different pieces of data and information to make recommendations. Proactive recommendations, personalized recommendations on these journeys. And one of the things noted in in this narrative that I think is critical is Natasha and her team identified that the biggest opportunity they have the greatest window is in the first six months of that relationship. They found they were losing out on a tremendous amount of opportunity because their their methodology was rooted in the past, in the physical world and you are able to help come in and transform, not just there doing, but I think also more importantly, they're thinking to create more value for their financial brand by creating more value for their account holder. Can you provide some hope of what this future could look like by applying this, thinking about the work that you've done here with Natasha and really been hugely collaborative. Uh and it's and it's not just Natasha, it's it's the entire team, they're everybody from the chief lending officer, the person in charge of all the branches, the call center team, the entire marketing team. And we have, we have put our foot on the gas. So once we got them up and running with their first use case was welcoming new members. We then immediately turned to re engaging existing members. We then turned to newsletters to solve the fatigue of the 8-10 email blast that we're crossing in the, in the night. And the, you know, the whole team there is just fantastic to work with, extremely creative. And now that it's kind of like riding a horse or riding a bike. And I don't know when you, when you think about riding a bike and your dad or your mom is got you on the wheels and and you're scared and you probably fall over once and then you...

...get back on and you keep going and next thing you know, you're flying down the street, that's what a journey with us is like. Right, So well what we call it walk, run ballet. So we will start out with solving one of your problems and then we'll step you as, as you tell us about more problems, like we need to bring in, uh, you know, we need a switch kit. Okay, How do we do that quickly and get that up and running? We need a landing pages with geo targeting based upon, you know, driving new member acquisition in certain markets. Oh, we need, uh, we're going to start a foundation. Can you, can you launch a foundation page with donation capability? I mean, it's just, boom, boom. Now they're at run there at ballet. I mean there they are. You know, and it's their openness, their willingness, they see the results, They work with us on a literally week by week basis. And so together we have really transformed them into frankly a personalization machine or their member base in very exciting, very exciting true story. Well, first, you know, you mentioned that this was a collaborative experience and it was marketing lending the call center leadership, It wasn't one person, it wasn't an individual, it wasn't just a team. This is cultural and organizational transformation at its finest. And one of the things that I'm seeing through the training, the coaching, the advising that we're doing is historically we have been just working with marketing teams to transform that mindset from my experience, working with marketing cells and leadership teams. We had historically just worked with marketing teams. But that's only one perspective because because great, you're gonna transform marketing's thinking, but then they're going to run into roadblocks, say, with, like cells and lendings and ops and leadership. You have to kind of do all of this in one fell swoop and it takes time. Kind of, coming back to your point about riding a bike. True story. We go back a year as we started this conversation, right? As Covid was hitting and we were on lockdown, I was like, Kids need to learn how to ride a bike by two oldest. We have four kids, they're 10 and eight, and they've been on training wheels. And I'm like, you know what? The training wheels come off today? And the sheer terror on your faces, like, you were like, you thought I'd, like, took away everything And no, and they were nine and 7 at the time. And you know what? We went, we went down to the track, they hopped onto the track, they fell a lot, and I'm like, they're like, can you hold on to the bike? I remember when I was a kid. No one, no 1 taught me how to ride a bike. You kind of have to build that confidence up over time, but you're right, once they built that confidence, they're off and running, and now it's become a favorite pastime for them. So I I this is a great story. It's a great example. It really is one of of hope and and as we look ahead, and I always like to provide one recommendation or get one small action because massive transformation begins, like you said, walk, run ballet. What is a small micro action or commitment you could recommend for the dear listener to make a commitment when looking at building these personalized digital experiences. What would that be? It would be to to find the right partner that, that you can trust that can help you, that has been there and done that. And that is, you know, it's not about the technology, it's not about the platform, it's not about the oh, does it have a CMS or doesn't it? It's you know, oh, I'll have to hire five people. Oh, goody. I get to be... my empire. It's not, it's go find somebody that's fast to market that understands agile methodology that has a proven platform and can get something up and running in record time and then start to iterate and that's what it's all about. And that's what works building the pie in the sky ultimate system internally. I don't care if you're Chase or Bank of America. Trust me, I've seen underneath the covers of some of those large enterprises and trust me, I think the banks and credit unions have a huge opportunity, a huge opportunity to change the dynamic focus in on the member and customer and listen to them. Let them speak to you through their actions and behaviors. If I could distill all of that down. Put people at the center of all of your thinking and all of your doing and when you do that, you will create value early and often for your account holders and as a result you will create value early and often for your financial brand Paula, this has been a great conversation. If anyone wants to continue this discussion, what's the best way for them to reach out, Say hello and connect with you? Well, they're welcome to join me on linkedin. I'm Paula Tompkins at channel net dot com. That's P Tompkins. T O M P K I N S at channel net dot com. Or feel free to pick up the phone and call me on myself. 4157204498. We have great case studies on our website. We would prefer to work across silos and not just with marketing. Marketing of course will help execute, but really we need the engagement of all the other business stakeholders so we can meet the needs across the board and not just blast emails. Absolutely. It's about marketing cells ups it leadership all working together to guide people beyond their financial stress towards a bigger, better and brighter future. I'm glad you're helping financial brands with this on their own journey, Paula, thanks again for joining me on another episode of banking on digital growth. Thank you James robert. It's been a thrill as always and until next time be well too good and make your bed. Thank you for listening to another episode of banking on digital growth. With James robert. Ley like what you hear, tell a friend about the podcast and leave us a review on apple podcasts, google podcasts or Spotify and subscribe While you're there to get even more practical improvement insights, visit www dot digital growth dot com to grab a preview of James roberts, best selling book banking on digital growth Or order a copy right now for you and your team from Amazon inside you'll find a strategic marketing and sales blueprint framed around 12 key areas of focus that empower you to confidently generate 10 times more loans and deposits until next time. Be well and do good.

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