Banking on Digital Growth
Banking on Digital Growth

Episode · 1 year ago

71) #ExponentialInsights: Target Fixation: Transformation Is Looking Where You’re Going feat. Jeffery Kendall

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

When we learn to drive, why do we steer towards what we want to avoid?

It’s called target fixation — you need to look where you’re going to travel.

The same applies to digital transformation.

That’s one of the insights Jeffery Kendall, Chairman & CEO at NYMBUS, learned in his ongoing mission to help financial brands and to delight members and customers with best-in-class digital banking solutions.

In this episode, we discuss:

- Why the market rewards solutions to hard problems, not easy ones

- Target fixation and keeping your eye on the road ahead

- Market segmentation and why most financial institutions get it wrong

You can find this interview and many more by subscribing to Banking on Digital Growth on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, or here.

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for Banking on Digital Growth in your favorite podcast player.
 

If I was trying to design a car that served the needs of 300 million people, I'd end up with a pretty lackluster un interesting car because I have to sort of address everybody's needs. But if I focus on people who want to go off roading, I could start making more focused products. I could start thinking about designing a Jeep, something that's gonna look very specific and have a value proposition. Banks or the exact same way you're listening to Banking on Digital Growth with James Robert Lay, a podcast that empowers financial brand marketing, sales and leadership teams to maximize their digital growth potential by generating 10 times more loans and deposits. Today's episode is part of the exponential insight Siri's, where James Robert interviews the industry's top marketing sales, and Fintech leaders sharing practical wisdom toe exponentially elevate you and your team. Let's get into the show. Greetings in Hello, I am James Robert Ley and welcome to the 71st episode of the Banking on Digital Growth podcast. Today's episode is part of the exponential insight, Siri's and I'm excited to welcome Jeffrey Kindle to the show. Jeffrey is the CEO of Nimbus and he is on a mission to help financial brands, the light members and customers with best in class digital banking solutions. Welcome to the show, Jeffrey. Thanks, James Roberts. Great to be here on a longtime listener band of the show. So it za special privilege for me. Thio be here talking with you today. Well, I look forward toa learning from you as well because you've got your doing such great work right now a lot of great thinking And as we start this conversation looking ahead, looking ahead into the future because the future is typically where I live, you know, I had a a family member of the other day Asked asked me So what is it that you do? I was like, I bring the future into the present moment to help people see what the opportunities are. So it's just not so scary. He was like that was deep. So Azaz That's a great tagline. I hope to be able thio share that someday. That's a great way to describe it. Yeah, and and on on your perspective, bringing the future if you will into the present moment. What do you most excited about, right now, what do you see? Well, look, I think the way that I sort of view the world is I want to solve hard problems. I have something I tell my tea in this all the time I've lived this, I think, for the past 10, 15 years of my career, which is the market rewards people who figure out how to solve hard problems, not easy problems. And what that does for us, is it? It's basically trying Thio give people the courage to think about. Hey, I know that that sounds really impossible. And I know that that sounds, you know, like a huge challenge. But what if it was possible? What if it was possible to go solve it? What would be the opportunity in the market? And the hard problem that I'm really focused on solving right now is I have a belief that the banking industry is about way all talk about it in platitudes and, you know, everything is being disrupted and everything is changing, and that's true. But the next click down is like, what's what's the consequence of that? What's gonna happen? And one of the problems that I see right now is the community and regional banks are struggling and are facing, you know, somewhat of a challenge. Looking into the future. Now they're had their being, you know, squeeze for growth on two sides, which is, you know, number one by the big money center banks who have unlimited budgets and unlimited resource is and unlimited talent to just go and capture...

...big market opportunity. And then, on the flip side, you have the fin tex and the emerging, you know, Challenger banks and neo banks and whatever tag you want to apply to it, those air squeezing from the other side And the reality is, is that the attrition from customers, deposits and business is going elsewhere. And I think that leaves community, banks and regional banks in a precarious situation. And we've seen this coming for years, so it's nothing new that's not a revolutionary thought. But now I think the technology and the ability to do something about it has finally arrived. And that's what that's what I'm interested in doing is saying, How do we take technology? How do we take business processes and help give regional community banks a fighting chance of survival? It's really simple. Yeah, I like that perspective. Give them a fighting chance to not just survive, but I even think thrive kind of in this new world. I like your perspective about solving hard problems. I can't just help but think JFK is in the back of my mind saying we choose to go to the moon. We choose to go to the moon and do other things, not because they're easy, but because they are hard. And if it were easy, everyone would be doing it. But to your point, the market rewards those that solve the tough problems. And I even think that the tough problems, you know, first principles think of principle. First, thinking really drives a lot of my perspective of looking not at what's the limitations. But if this is a zero sum game and we're starting over, what can we do? What value can we create? And it really all comes down. Thio the people, the people problem, the money problem that people are experiencing the financial stress and the opportunity for those community and regional institutions to create massive value for people in the communities that they serve. But to your point, JPMorgan Chase I mean, you know, they dropped $2.5 billion in marketing, just marketing in 2019 and that Zmax this huge. So it's about, I think, not necessarily working harder. But working smarter and digital is a multiplier that can help us really leap forward and move beyond the present moment, right? Absolutely. And I think it's a mix. One of the things I had a presentation with a credit union board a couple years ago and they asked me, It's a what is going digital really mean? You know, the premise was, everything's really digital now. Is it really something different? And they said, What would we need to be successful? You know, when we have digital bank and we think about that and part of it was, there's not just one single isolated category to think about. If you're thinking about digital transformation and into one of the points that you and I have talked about in the past, which is like, How are you leveraging data? How are you leveraging, you know, engagement? How are you leveraging understanding what the problem is with the customer and the that you're trying to serve, and it's really you have Teoh, you have to think across those different categories versus focusing on one or the other. And I think that's where you know this. Part of the challenges right now is that everybody comes at it from a sort of one siloed approach. And if you ask somebody who works in a you know, a nay I company or machine learning company, they're going to say it's all about the data. And then if you have somebody who works in a digital banking front end company, they're gonna say it's all about the experience and the answer is somewhere across the spectrum. And I think that's that's where Ah lot of the good work is being done right now in the brands and things like that is thinking Cross, How do we use all these things together versus one individual silo? Well, that's why we developed the Banker Strategy Circle to begin with in the first place, because it's about aligning all of these different internal perspectives and areas of...

...expertise, from marketing from marketing to cells from cells to service and really kind of all three of those spectrums being supported by operations by digital by I T and at the heart of the banker strategy circle. It's it comes back to its people, right? It's when when, when you can can step out of the silo and you start solving problems for people and not just that particular part of the silo. I think that's where the conversation becomes much easier because the problem becomes bigger than ourselves, which is the pain points of other people. And we're looking at ourselves and a whole new light of, you know, people have these problems, these pain points, these questions, these concerns, and they're looking for someone that they can trust to guide them. Now we have the solution, the prescription, the cures, Thio, ease those pain points. Absolutely. And it's interesting because as the CEO of a software tech company, we naturally gravitate towards the tech. We naturally want to talk about how wonderful our features and architectures and scalability and cloud blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And that's that's all great. And that has to be there. And I would sound completely incredulous. A software company leader if I didn't you know, it's sort of say yes, we need that, but where we've unlocked kind of are our growth is that we stop talking about our technology, and it's really funny because what we start with is, what do your customers want? What are you really trying to dio and and do it in a in a way that is authentic, not just leading them down the conclusion of Well, therefore you need to buy our software. That's because that's where we ask the right questions to get you there. But it's really saying, Hey, we've got a platform that could do lots of things, But it won't make sense at the end of the day and the engagement unless we're thinking about your customer and what's the particular area where you're trying to grow, or that you're interested in capturing more market share, so starting a conversation there and and honestly focusing the majority of what we do on that problem, the other things follow, and but you have to have that conversation and be part of it, or you'll never be successful. It was funny way recently moved to Colorado, and I took my kids out for their first snowboarding lessons, and we're sort of, you know, I'm watching them go down the hill and they've got an instructor. It's fantastic, but, you know, it's sort of they keep sort of navigating towards the things that they don't want to hit. And I reminded them I said, You know, there's this principle called target fixation, which means that you go where you're looking on, and if you took drivers Ed or you never been on a motorcycle or anything like that, you know that. You know, when the biggest thing that people make the mistake of is, if they think they're gonna crash into something, it's because they're looking at it. You know, you have to look to where you want to go, and then everything else will sort of just naturally follow. And that's that's my belief in in leading digital banking and talking about that with customers, which is we'll figure out the technology solution on the back end, but let's look where we're going. Let's let's make sure that we have a very clear picture of what it is that we're trying to get is the outcome not just in terms of the project, but in terms of the growth. And if you focus on that, everything else follows target fixation look where you where you want to go. And it's that idea bringing literally bringing the future back into the present moment to connect some dots there. I can't think, but help like this is gonna be a big part of the next book, which is called Banking on Change. And it uses a methodology that I call act. Because if we're wanting growth toe happen, it all boils down to doing one thing, and that is just acting or taking the time to act because we can...

...talk a good game. But if you don't act, then you're gonna be in the same exact place you are today that you were yesterday and the day before that. So what does that acronym? It's really about ascending the apex of awareness going. You're in Colorado going up the mountain, looking at where you've been looking at where you're at down the mountain and then, you know, focus the horizon line, getting some clarity into what I call the territory of transformation. Because between the apex of awareness and then the territory of transformation, we have what I call the seven Seas. You know, you gotta have to cross the seven seas. Now it's gonna take time and, you know, it could be really good. It could be clarity. It could be courage. It could be commitment and so forth and so on. Or it could be the antithesis of that. The seven seas could be very dangerous and deadly. It could be confusion. It could be conflict. It could be chaos so forth and so on. So I think it's about gaining that awareness first and foremost into what the opportunities are and then coming back to your point with technology. Technology is just the vehicle that will hop in the boat to cross those seven seas. But it's getting really clear off what that future could look like, not just for the financial brand, but also for the people that that financial brand serves. And I wanted to that point comeback toe getting clear of who were serving who were creating value for you've done a lot of thinking and writing on the subject. I think it's important niche, niche getting real clear about who the niche, the few that we can create the greatest value fork, And can you expand on that thinking? Yeah, absolutely. It's It's something that I would say, you know, has been a recent development in my thinking and our teams thinking and how we approach the the problem. But one of the things especially, you know, we're in the business of helping people stand up digital banks, and that's where we're getting our greatest growth. And are the markets really excited about what we're doing? And we're grateful for that. But I get a question on a lot of times, which is The road of digital banks is littered with dead banks. And, you know, people always point to the example of Finn, or maybe even now, simple. You know, there's lots of there's more more examples than we have time to cover. And the objection is like, Well, well, I don't wanna end up like Finn, and I don't wanna end up like, simple How do I avoid that? And as we did a lot more thinking about, what is it that really makes a product successful? Forget about banking, right? It's You got to think like a product company, which is you have to provide enough compelling value and a reason for people to come over to your product and one of the things that we see is a huge mistake. And digital banking is just standing up a new digital bank with the same features and functions and capabilities and value proposition as your traditional bank. If you're an existing traditional bank turned, start up one or it's so generic that your your value problem, there's proposition is just that you're a digital bank. There's no riel compelling reason for me to move all my financial relationships over from my traditional bank to the digital bank. And I point to Finn. I mean, when when Finck. I'm a Chase customer. When Finn came out, I was really curious about what was going on. I logged in and I was like, This is exactly what I have it in my current relationship with Chase. What's new? Why would I? Why would I use this? It's not even. There's nothing different about it. And I see that a lot of these digital banks that have started up, that's just it's almost like their value proposition boils down to Hayward Digital. Well, that's not interesting anymore. When simple started 10 years ago, that was a revolutionary thought. No branches, no. You know, we don't need any of that. Our collective thinking has evolved massively since then. It's not about being digital. It's about what are you doing to actually improve my life or make my financial life easier or better or healthier or on so forth? And so the...

...reason that that's hard to do to get that value proposition right is that people think too broadly about their market segment. So if I was trying to design a car that served the needs of 300 million people, I'd end up with a pretty lackluster un interesting car because I have to sort of address everybody's needs. But if I focus on you know, people who want to go off roading, I could start making more focused products. I could start thinking about designing a Jeep, something that's gonna look very specific and have a value proposition. Banks for the exact same way. If you think about your customers in this very broad 300 million population in the U. S, you're not gonna have a hook. You're not gonna have anything that's gonna be compelling for those people to come over. But if I start focusing on a niche of or a segment of the population. It actually allows me to get to a solution much faster that could be meaningful to them. You're echoing the words of been Stop it. Who's the founder and CEO of Unify Money? And they have a specific niche high income earners, those that make $150,000 and mawr. And I think they narrowed their market segment down to about 15 million people, more or less. But they're very clear of who they're going to create value for. And if you fall outside of that, no hard feelings, it's just not. It's not part of our growth plan. Another one that comes off the top of my head is aspiration. I mean literally on their website. They have Leave your bank, change the world. There's a good chance your bank is using your money to fund oil projects that destroy the climate. Put your money where your values are joint aspiration today and then they've built their whole positioning and go to market strategy and even their product design, like turn every transaction into a positive action plant. A climate change fighting tree with every purchase about rounding up to the nearest whole dollar like they're not gonna be for everyone. Aspiration that ISS. And they've got really clear, though. So yeah, this is this idea of how, Okay, I'm a CEO. I get what you're saying. I got some fears, though, because it's like, Well, I'm turning away all this other opportunity. How are you gonna help me overcome those fears? Jeffrey Technology has transformed our world, and digital has changed the way consumers shop for and buy financial services forever. Now, consumers make purchase decisions long before they walk into a branch if they walk into a branch at all. But your financial brand still wants to grow loans and deposits. We get it. Digital growth can feel confusing, frustrating and overwhelming for any financial brand marketing and sales leader. But it doesn't have thio because James Robert wrote the book that guides you every step of the way along your digital growth journey. Visit www dot digital growth dot com to get a preview of his best selling book, Banking on Digital Growth, or order a copy right now for you and your team from Amazon. Inside, you'll find a strategic marketing manifesto that was written to transform financial brands, and it is packed full of practical and proven insights you can start using today to confidently generate 10 times more loans and deposits. Now back to the show. Well, I think one of the things that has changed materially is that even in the past three years, the cost, the energy, the time, the focus, everything required a tremendous amount of energy if you wanted to start a digital bank or a segment or niche bank. So let's just rewind, you know, to a couple of projects that I had experienced within my my past life helping banks start...

...digital brands. Well, the challenge was is that if you wanted to start a digital bank 35 years ago, you had your core processor over here. You had to pick a modern digital banking front end over here, and you had to pick a bill pay provider and a card processor and on and on and on. And by the time that you got everything that you needed together to start the digital bank, it was you had 15 to 20 vendors minimum involved in this pond. There was this tremendous amount of complexity to bring it all together that by the way, the bank was responsible for executing on not the vendors. The vendors all played their individual role, but they weren't responsible for the whole project coming together and being successful. The bank for all that risk, what happened was that price tag turned into something that was 25 to $30 million. Honestly, that the two digital banks I'm thinking of that I was involved with. It took 2, 2.5 years and it was north, you know, close to 30 million bucks before they ever had one customer. Now the technology is evolving, and now that people are focused on solving this problem, you can actually start a niche bank for, you know, less than a million bucks. And so we've What we've done is we've made the decision much, much smaller and much. And we've taken the risk off of the bank to make sure that everybody comes together and launches the, you know, brings all the technology together. And we've taken on that risk, you know, from our company perspective. And again, we're not the only ones doing great things out. Digital banking. There's lots of great suppliers out there and great software companies, and we love that. But today it's easier for a CEO to say, You know what? Starting a digital bank is not risky anymore. It's not gonna cost me 25 million bucks. It's not going to take the 30 people in our call center, you know, d focus them for six months while they learn a new brand and offer and products. So let's yeah, let's practically talk about that because, I mean, you know, to build a physical branch location. Traditionally $345 million. Uh, easy, easy. But we're talking just, you know, kind of average run of the mill, you know, community branch gonna cast 500,000 to 7. 50 operationally to keep that thing up and running. And you're talking about being able to do almost the exact same thing for a niche market. Do you see, because now that's almost like a branch in of itself. Do you see? Is there a potential for a nephi to have multiple digital bank brands focus around multiple niche markets? Absolutely. Absolutely. I think where the market has started, you know, sort of had to get its head around. Was one digital brand. Yeah, but then, as you get the it's the cost for for digital bank goes down and the niche gets way more focused, you can imagine somebody having 20 and digital banks as part of the banks. And so now portfolio. Exactly. So the analogy. I always use this look. Today's banks are like big box stores. I walk into the warehouse store and there's lots of products, and I could probably find everything I need, and that's one way of going to market. But there's also another way of going to market, which is to think more like a high end shopping mall. And so when I walk into the shopping mall, there's a Cartier store and there's a forever 21 a Rolex and Nordstrom and all these great brands that are very, very focused on what the value is that they're bringing to that customer. What their product offer is etcetera. That's where I try to encourage banks to think about where we're going in the future, which is don't think about your one big brand serving. Everybody think about how am I going to go create brands that actually reflect the base of the consumer that I want. I even wrote about. Yeah, I even wrote about this in banking on digital growth. You know, this this idea of you got the Wal Marts of the world. They're competing on price, and that's a very dangerous...

...place to be because it's price sensitivity. It's always gonna be, you know, pushing downward on the opposite end of the spectrum. You have the niche brands, and I think you might have used, like BMW to come back to your car example, and it's, ah, higher and brand. But they're able to get more of a premium out of it because I think to financial brands that focus around a niche you're creating community. You're creating like minds, and you're creating deep level expertise with whatever that that niche market is. Take chewy. For example, the dog company you know you could buy your dog products off of Amazon, but you're not going to get the het level of expertise that Chewy would be able to provide. And chewy has its own brand, affinity and community kind of already built into to that whole niche market in and of itself. So I like that a portfolio of digital banks. Target a really, for you by example. So we're working with to bank brands right now that we're launching, and these are examples of what we call niches. So one is a bank that's focused on the customer segment of newlyweds. So if you think about focusing on people in a specific journey point in their life, you know when we get married, we bring together two different sets of finances. Two different sets of accounts. Student loan, debt consolidation. There's all these things that has a newlywed that there's different financial challenges that you have. And so we came up with this concept and we're launching that. But then we asked ourselves the question. I said, Well, that's a point in time. What happens when you're not a newlywed anymore? What happens a year from now or two years from now or three years from now? We were like, I don't identify with that group anymore, that it's irrelevant to me where I am now in my life. So then we said, Well, we need a bank that serves the next neither stage of their life. And so we came up with the concept of an intergenerational bank s. So this whole idea of the way that we think about finances with our family, with our Children, with our parents, that's all getting more murky. Uh, you know, and there's a big market segment. It's like, you know, as I got older, I had to start helping my parents take care of their finances. And I'm also helping my 25 year old daughter take care of her finances. And so I need this point of view that it's not just me anymore. I'm actually managing the the financials for for people who are part of my family. So we were like, Well, as the newlyweds sort of start aging and getting more mature in their life journey, then you move them over into this intergenerational bank, and now they're in a place that serves the needs of that stage, and it could be indefinite the amount of different stages that you go to. But when you start thinking about the customer and their life journey, those are the answers you get versus well, let's just have one big brand that serves everybody's needs. Yeah, and I think about like the newlywed perspective my wife and I, we do marriage prep for couples. And if you're gonna focus around a niche market segment, then you can go to others that serve that same niche market. For example, there's a brand called Prepare and Rich that helps marriage prep Well, then you can have cross alignment with these other brands serving the niche market to co create value for said market. And it's it's a multiplying effect of value creation across the board. So there's that, like, co brand affinity opportunity that I see as well I mean, this is a great practical example. Absolutely. And I think that's That's another place where bankers need to worry or have been thinking about the threat coming in, which is, you know, you've seen it. We've seen it for 30 years with airline, you know, Miles credit cards, right? Every hotel, training and airline has benefited off of creating, you know, rewards, points and affinity with their brand and their credit card spending. Well, now it's actually starting to go even deeper into financial life, and this whole idea embedded finance is it's now sort...

...of taking part of other brands and, you know, the apple credit cards like the perfect example, which is You have a big brand that recognized as a huge base of consumers, a niche that they conserve. Let's go create a financial product, put it in their hands and grow like crazy. I think we're going to see a lot more of big brands getting creative about how they take parts of people's financial lives and bring it into their into their institutions. And I don't think we're We've seen the sort of apex of where that strategy can go were still climbing the mountain. But I look to examples like Starbucks, Starbuck says, to $2 billion plus of deposits in their gift card program. It's now starting to be like Wait, that's actually like real money that's going through there and that's taking money. You know, that's what they have Billion dollars in Starbucks used to be out in a checking account, someone that's not anymore and and that's I think we're seeing some erosion from brands and tech they're taking in that direction. I mean, coming back make this very practical, you know? Niche banking brand for coffee lovers. Niche banking brand for Scotch lovers. Niche banking brand for pet lovers, then you can cross partner with to I mean, there's so many. And I think like it's just opening up, going up to the apex of awareness, getting really clear about what the opportunities are and then committing to that committing. And here's a question for you. When you think about digital banking, what is a common belief that others in the industry might have about the subject and the idea of digital banking that you just passionately disagree with? I think it's probably less that disagree with. But I would say that we need to evolve our thinking about the value of digital banking and the way that I kind of see the journey that we're on. I think about digital banking in Dato stages because I'm in software and I'm trying to think that way. But, you know, digital one Dato was, you know, basically providing access Thio tools through either online banking or, let's, let's say, mobile banking. When that started taking off, it was all about being able to check a balance, make a payment, you know, see where your money is, etcetera. So it was really about, you know, just information. Then it started you know, moving towards just transactional self service, which is where digital to Dato, I think took over. And people recognize that like, Hey, the first version of digital that we had was kind of clunky. The user experience find out being created was the first version out. No one knew what they were doing. So then everybody, pretty five or six years ago got really super focused around the user experience, the user interface, making sure that it was this great experience like Netflix or, you know, some other great digital brand. But it was still the features, and what you could do with digital banking was still all around self service. There was nothing that I could do to, actually, really. It wasn't focused around opening new accounts or having access to new products or thinking about growth. And now I think digital three D Otto is aligned with where you know your thesis is for, you know, the works that you published in and and the themes that you talked about, which is now. It's not just enough to have Ah, great high fidelity looking at CEOs of banking, a bank, they're going. Wait a minute. I'm investing millions of dollars into my digital stuff. How's it actually helping me grow? And when I say grow, I don't mean taking call center calls away. I mean, adding new deposits, adding new loans, making things you know, grow in that regard. Acquisition? Yeah, and and that's that's not been part of the theme yet. And I said, I think that as an industry, as software providers and as tech providers, we are behind the times in serving the banks where they need to be. And that's my biggest frustration with legacy tech providers is that we have an obligation to keep faith and push our banks and and be there for them when they need...

...growth. And we're not doing that. I want to touch on that. I mean, you know, you wrote a very strong perspective piece on LinkedIn, and these were your words quote, and you literally just said, it's that I'm frustrated by the legacy Bank tech providers, their post, their videos, their webinars and monitoring banks were falling behind and not investing in digital fast enough. It's like the captor telling the captive they should do a better job at escaping if I as know they need to find new ways to attract and retain customers. Our responsibility is tech partners is to remove obstacles to growth instead of moving the technology goalposts and then telling them that they're behind their behind because of you and that post received, I mean, it struck a nerve. It received over 317 reactions. 33 comments. Can you expand on this Because I'm in 100% agreement with you? As I know many of our dear listener, Zara's Well, yeah, it's funny. Sometimes you have to be naive or ignorant about an industry before you can kind of see where the flaws are. And I'm not a banker by background. I started my career in health care and I was a software engineer, and for 15 years I was focused on solving problems in health care I t and patient experience. And so when I started started getting interested in fintech and banking, I had an outsider's view. It was sort of like, Well, that's stupid. Why are we doing that? Or why? Why? Why don't you switch your core? And you know, if you've heard this like constant conversation in the market which I don't think surprises anyone, which is, if you ask bank executives and say, Hey, how do you How do you feel about your relationship with your core banking provider generally not positive and, in fact, the majority of the time? It's probably more integrity mystic than that. And but people feel trapped and they feel trapped because the core providers are the ones that they're dependent on. Thio introduce new digital banking technologies, but they're 5 to 6 years behind the technology curve of what other things we're used to in our consumer lives. So they're just not keeping up with where customers want the banks to be, and you know it was. But the behind the scenes that post was I saw an ad from a traditional legacy provider, and it said you should. It was something about digital transformation and the, you know, the need for banks to continue to invest in digital transformation. And I was like I could name 15 CEOs that use you as a company right now, and they would fire you in a heartbeat if they could, because you've prevented them and you haven't given them the digital tools that they've been begging for for five years, and that, to me, is the frustration. Andi. I also think that some of the business practices that are common in the industry are number one. They're I think they're at very least they're bad for competition and the economy and borderline unethical. I say that with Cem. You know that that won't make me really popular with companies that start with the letter F. But, you know, I believe that having exclusive contracts is a horrible thing for customers was a horrible thing for customers. And it's a horrible thing for innovation because, you know, here's the thing. You know it's the Microsoft model, right? And and and to your point, all progress, all growth, all transformation starts by telling the truth. And I think the more that we have these honest conversations, the MAWR, that will elevate this entire industry together. And that's the thing. This is about, ah, mindset of what I call abundance to where there's enough opportunity to go around for all of us to create together. We're on the flip side of this, it's it's scarcity, and we're always gonna be competing and fighting. And when when that happens, no one wins. It's a zero sum game. And I'm really hoping to elevate the things conversation to a much more positive...

...stance toe like the one we've had today. Yeah, I totally agree. I you know, I feel bad for a lot of the banks and the credit unions because they want to grow. They wanna be awesome. Attentional They want to have all these tools. And the problem is, is that they just don't feel they can't get those from from the legacy providers a rate that they need. And it was funny. There was another, uh, Chuck, when I won't call them out, you know, fully by name. But there was an advertisement assault from the Legacy tech provider, and the headline was, We've simplified contracts. We've made it easier. We're not locking you until a long term contractor. We're allowing you to pay month to month. And I thought, How funny is it that your lead message to the market about why you're great is that we're not going to screw you anymore? E thought that. Is that some rich marketing and messaging going on there when it's like, Well, you shouldn't have been doing that to begin with. Why is that now, like a You know, it's a positive message that we're not gonna abuse you any longer, but I think that's the thinking of legacy providers. And look, they want growth. They need growth just like everybody else in the market. So they're searching. But they're doing themselves a disservice by looking for growth in contract terms and not in innovating and building new product. Well, I mean, it's the innovator's dilemma being played out before our very eyes, right? And I think that the neat thing with what you're doing and really your perspective, your background coming from health care is there's so much opportunity. If you can fix someone's wallet, you can help them improve their physical well being. If you can fix someone's wallet, you can improve their mental well being because they're so interconnected. And I think that's that's the biggest opportunities that that I'm looking at when it comes to just this idea of digital growth and you mentioned this before. Let's stop thinking of ourselves as bankers, but our elevate our the value that we can bring to the world into the communities that we serve when we wrap up. This has been such a great conversation, Jeffrey. I appreciate the knowledge and the insights that you've transferred today. One recommendation. If there's one recommendation that you could make to bankers and Financial brand leaders, credit union leaders, what would that one recommendation be that they could commit to over the next year? That za great question? I would say it's a pretty simple one, and it's think about your customers holistically versus just their banking relationship. And what I mean by that is before somebody ever opens up their mobile banking app on their phone in the morning or during the day, they've opened up 15 other APS. They've done 15 other things. Think about what your product does in the context of their broader life, versus just thinking about the particular transaction that you're trying to do with them, and that will lead you to understand your niche markets and how to serve and create longer term, sort of more deep relationships with your customers than what we're doing today. So, you know, think about it. It's like what happens when I go to Starbucks and I made a payment, and now I've, you know gone on to a different happened. Now I'm in my banking app. Think about ways that you could bring all that together and fit in in a contextual way in people's lives versus just I. I'm their banker and this is what I do. And I think they'll be growth if you can figure out and truly understand the customer. If I could bring that back, put people at the center off all of your thinking, all of your doing, and really commit to putting the transformation of people over what I would just call the commoditized transaction of dollars and cents 100%. Jeffrey. No, think about it. No, it doesn't. And if someone wants to...

...continue this conversation with you, what's the best way for them to reach out, Connect with you and say hello? Yeah. LinkedIn nimbus dot com My email addresses Jake Kendall at nimbus dot com. I love hearing from people so glad to connect and and trade more thoughts with with anybody in the industry. All right, Jeffrey, thank you so much for joining me on another episode of banking on Digital growth, James Roberts. Been a true pleasure of love talking with you love hearing your ideas, so keep up the great work. Really appreciate it as always. And until next time be well, do good and wash your hands. Thank you for listening to another episode of banking on Digital Growth with James Robert Ley. Like what you hear. Tell a friend about the podcast and leave us a review on Apple podcasts, Google Podcast or Spotify and subscribe while you're there. To get even more practical in proven insights, visit www dot digital growth dot com to grab a preview of James Roberts bestselling book Banking on Digital Growth or order a copy right now for you and your team from Amazon. Inside, you'll find a strategic marketing and sales blueprint framed around 12 key areas of focus that empower you to confidently generate 10 times more loans and deposits until next time, be well and do good.

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