Banking on Digital Growth
Banking on Digital Growth

Episode · 10 months ago

71) #ExponentialInsights: Target Fixation: Transformation Is Looking Where You’re Going feat. Jeffery Kendall

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

When we learn to drive, why do we steer towards what we want to avoid?

It’s called target fixation — you need to look where you’re going to travel.

The same applies to digital transformation.

That’s one of the insights Jeffery Kendall, Chairman & CEO at NYMBUS, learned in his ongoing mission to help financial brands and to delight members and customers with best-in-class digital banking solutions.

In this episode, we discuss:

- Why the market rewards solutions to hard problems, not easy ones

- Target fixation and keeping your eye on the road ahead

- Market segmentation and why most financial institutions get it wrong

You can find this interview and many more by subscribing to Banking on Digital Growth on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, or here.

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for Banking on Digital Growth in your favorite podcast player.
 

If I was trying to design a car thatserved the needs of 300 million people, I'd end up with a pretty lackluster uninteresting car because I have to sort of address everybody's needs. But if Ifocus on people who want to go off roading, I could start making morefocused products. I could start thinking about designing a Jeep,something that's gonna look very specific and have a value proposition.Banks or the exact same way you're listening to Banking on DigitalGrowth with James Robert Lay, a podcast that empowers financial brand marketing,sales and leadership teams to maximize their digital growth potential bygenerating 10 times more loans and deposits. Today's episode is part ofthe exponential insight Siri's, where James Robert interviews the industry'stop marketing sales, and Fintech leaders sharing practical wisdom toeexponentially elevate you and your team. Let's get into the show. Greetings inHello, I am James Robert Ley and welcome to the 71st episode of theBanking on Digital Growth podcast. Today's episode is part of theexponential insight, Siri's and I'm excited to welcome Jeffrey Kindle tothe show. Jeffrey is the CEO of Nimbus and he is on a mission to helpfinancial brands, the light members and customers with best in class digitalbanking solutions. Welcome to the show, Jeffrey. Thanks, James Roberts. Greatto be here on a longtime listener band of the show. So it za special privilegefor me. Thio be here talking with you today. Well, I look forward toalearning from you as well because you've got your doing such great workright now a lot of great thinking And as we start this conversation looking ahead, looking ahead into thefuture because the future is typically where I live, you know, I had a afamily member of the other day Asked asked me So what is it that you do? Iwas like, I bring the future into the present moment to help people see whatthe opportunities are. So it's just not so scary. He was like that was deep. SoAzaz That's a great tagline. I hope to be able thio share that someday. That'sa great way to describe it. Yeah, and and on on your perspective, bringingthe future if you will into the present moment. What do you most excited about,right now, what do you see? Well, look, I think the way that I sort of view theworld is I want to solve hard problems. I have something I tell my tea in thisall the time I've lived this, I think, for the past 10, 15 years of my career,which is the market rewards people who figure out how to solve hard problems,not easy problems. And what that does for us, is it? It's basically tryingThio give people the courage to think about. Hey, I know that that soundsreally impossible. And I know that that sounds, you know, like a huge challenge.But what if it was possible? What if it was possible to go solve it? What wouldbe the opportunity in the market? And the hard problem that I'm reallyfocused on solving right now is I have a belief that the banking industry isabout way all talk about it in platitudes and, you know, everything isbeing disrupted and everything is changing, and that's true. But the nextclick down is like, what's what's the consequence of that? What's gonnahappen? And one of the problems that I see right now is the community andregional banks are struggling and are facing, you know, somewhat of achallenge. Looking into the future. Now they're had their being, you know,squeeze for growth on two sides, which is, you know, number one by the bigmoney center banks who have unlimited budgets and unlimited resource is andunlimited talent to just go and capture...

...big market opportunity. And then, onthe flip side, you have the fin tex and the emerging, you know, Challengerbanks and neo banks and whatever tag you want to apply to it, those airsqueezing from the other side And the reality is, is that the attrition fromcustomers, deposits and business is going elsewhere. And I think thatleaves community, banks and regional banks in a precarious situation. Andwe've seen this coming for years, so it's nothing new that's not arevolutionary thought. But now I think the technology and the ability to dosomething about it has finally arrived. And that's what that's what I'minterested in doing is saying, How do we take technology? How do we takebusiness processes and help give regional community banks a fightingchance of survival? It's really simple. Yeah, I like that perspective. Givethem a fighting chance to not just survive, but I even think thrive kindof in this new world. I like your perspective about solving hard problems.I can't just help but think JFK is in the back of my mind saying we choose togo to the moon. We choose to go to the moon and do other things, not becausethey're easy, but because they are hard. And if it were easy, everyone would bedoing it. But to your point, the market rewards those that solve the toughproblems. And I even think that the tough problems, you know, firstprinciples think of principle. First, thinking really drives a lot of myperspective of looking not at what's the limitations. But if this is a zerosum game and we're starting over, what can we do? What value can we create?And it really all comes down. Thio the people, the people problem, the moneyproblem that people are experiencing the financial stress and theopportunity for those community and regional institutions to create massivevalue for people in the communities that they serve. But to your point,JPMorgan Chase I mean, you know, they dropped $2.5 billion in marketing, justmarketing in 2019 and that Zmax this huge. So it's about, I think, notnecessarily working harder. But working smarter and digital is a multiplierthat can help us really leap forward and move beyond the present moment,right? Absolutely. And I think it's a mix. One of the things I had apresentation with a credit union board a couple years ago and they asked me,It's a what is going digital really mean? You know, the premise was,everything's really digital now. Is it really something different? And theysaid, What would we need to be successful? You know, when we havedigital bank and we think about that and part of it was, there's not justone single isolated category to think about. If you're thinking about digitaltransformation and into one of the points that you and I have talked aboutin the past, which is like, How are you leveraging data? How are you leveraging,you know, engagement? How are you leveraging understanding what theproblem is with the customer and the that you're trying to serve, and it'sreally you have Teoh, you have to think across those different categoriesversus focusing on one or the other. And I think that's where you know this.Part of the challenges right now is that everybody comes at it from a sortof one siloed approach. And if you ask somebody who works in a you know, a nayI company or machine learning company, they're going to say it's all about thedata. And then if you have somebody who works in a digital banking front endcompany, they're gonna say it's all about the experience and the answer issomewhere across the spectrum. And I think that's that's where Ah lot of thegood work is being done right now in the brands and things like that isthinking Cross, How do we use all these things together versus one individualsilo? Well, that's why we developed the Banker Strategy Circle to begin with inthe first place, because it's about aligning all of these differentinternal perspectives and areas of...

...expertise, from marketing frommarketing to cells from cells to service and really kind of all three ofthose spectrums being supported by operations by digital by I T and at theheart of the banker strategy circle. It's it comes back to its people, right?It's when when, when you can can step out of the silo and you start solvingproblems for people and not just that particular part of the silo. I thinkthat's where the conversation becomes much easier because the problem becomesbigger than ourselves, which is the pain points of other people. And we'relooking at ourselves and a whole new light of, you know, people have theseproblems, these pain points, these questions, these concerns, and they'relooking for someone that they can trust to guide them. Now we have the solution,the prescription, the cures, Thio, ease those pain points. Absolutely. And it'sinteresting because as the CEO of a software tech company, we naturallygravitate towards the tech. We naturally want to talk about howwonderful our features and architectures and scalability and cloudblah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And that's that's all great. And that hasto be there. And I would sound completely incredulous. A softwarecompany leader if I didn't you know, it's sort of say yes, we need that, butwhere we've unlocked kind of are our growth is that we stop talking aboutour technology, and it's really funny because what we start with is, what doyour customers want? What are you really trying to dio and and do it in ain a way that is authentic, not just leading them down the conclusion ofWell, therefore you need to buy our software. That's because that's wherewe ask the right questions to get you there. But it's really saying, Hey,we've got a platform that could do lots of things, But it won't make sense atthe end of the day and the engagement unless we're thinking about yourcustomer and what's the particular area where you're trying to grow, or thatyou're interested in capturing more market share, so starting aconversation there and and honestly focusing the majority of what we do onthat problem, the other things follow, and but you have to have thatconversation and be part of it, or you'll never be successful. It wasfunny way recently moved to Colorado, and I took my kids out for their firstsnowboarding lessons, and we're sort of, you know, I'm watching them go down thehill and they've got an instructor. It's fantastic, but, you know, it'ssort of they keep sort of navigating towards the things that they don't wantto hit. And I reminded them I said, You know, there's this principle calledtarget fixation, which means that you go where you're looking on, and if youtook drivers Ed or you never been on a motorcycle or anything like that, youknow that. You know, when the biggest thing that people make the mistake ofis, if they think they're gonna crash into something, it's because they'relooking at it. You know, you have to look to where you want to go, and theneverything else will sort of just naturally follow. And that's that's mybelief in in leading digital banking and talking about that with customers,which is we'll figure out the technology solution on the back end,but let's look where we're going. Let's let's make sure that we have a veryclear picture of what it is that we're trying to get is the outcome not justin terms of the project, but in terms of the growth. And if you focus on that,everything else follows target fixation look where you where you want to go.And it's that idea bringing literally bringing the future back into thepresent moment to connect some dots there. I can't think, but help likethis is gonna be a big part of the next book, which is called Banking on Change.And it uses a methodology that I call act. Because if we're wanting growthtoe happen, it all boils down to doing one thing, and that is just acting ortaking the time to act because we can...

...talk a good game. But if you don't act,then you're gonna be in the same exact place you are today that you wereyesterday and the day before that. So what does that acronym? It's reallyabout ascending the apex of awareness going. You're in Colorado going up themountain, looking at where you've been looking at where you're at down themountain and then, you know, focus the horizon line, getting some clarity intowhat I call the territory of transformation. Because between theapex of awareness and then the territory of transformation, we havewhat I call the seven Seas. You know, you gotta have to cross the seven seas.Now it's gonna take time and, you know, it could be really good. It could beclarity. It could be courage. It could be commitment and so forth and so on.Or it could be the antithesis of that. The seven seas could be very dangerousand deadly. It could be confusion. It could be conflict. It could be chaos soforth and so on. So I think it's about gaining that awareness first andforemost into what the opportunities are and then coming back to your pointwith technology. Technology is just the vehicle that will hop in the boat tocross those seven seas. But it's getting really clear off what thatfuture could look like, not just for the financial brand, but also for thepeople that that financial brand serves. And I wanted to that point comeback toegetting clear of who were serving who were creating value for you've done alot of thinking and writing on the subject. I think it's important niche,niche getting real clear about who the niche, the few that we can create thegreatest value fork, And can you expand on that thinking? Yeah, absolutely.It's It's something that I would say, you know, has been a recent developmentin my thinking and our teams thinking and how we approach the the problem.But one of the things especially, you know, we're in the business of helpingpeople stand up digital banks, and that's where we're getting our greatestgrowth. And are the markets really excited about what we're doing? Andwe're grateful for that. But I get a question on a lot of times, which isThe road of digital banks is littered with dead banks. And, you know, peoplealways point to the example of Finn, or maybe even now, simple. You know,there's lots of there's more more examples than we have time to cover.And the objection is like, Well, well, I don't wanna end up like Finn, and Idon't wanna end up like, simple How do I avoid that? And as we did a lot morethinking about, what is it that really makes a product successful? Forgetabout banking, right? It's You got to think like a product company, which isyou have to provide enough compelling value and a reason for people to comeover to your product and one of the things that we see is a huge mistake.And digital banking is just standing up a new digital bank with the samefeatures and functions and capabilities and value proposition as yourtraditional bank. If you're an existing traditional bank turned, start up oneor it's so generic that your your value problem, there's proposition is justthat you're a digital bank. There's no riel compelling reason for me to moveall my financial relationships over from my traditional bank to the digitalbank. And I point to Finn. I mean, when when Finck. I'm a Chase customer. WhenFinn came out, I was really curious about what was going on. I logged inand I was like, This is exactly what I have it in my current relationship withChase. What's new? Why would I? Why would I use this? It's not even.There's nothing different about it. And I see that a lot of these digital banksthat have started up, that's just it's almost like their value propositionboils down to Hayward Digital. Well, that's not interesting anymore. Whensimple started 10 years ago, that was a revolutionary thought. No branches, no.You know, we don't need any of that. Our collective thinking has evolvedmassively since then. It's not about being digital. It's about what are youdoing to actually improve my life or make my financial life easier or betteror healthier or on so forth? And so the...

...reason that that's hard to do to getthat value proposition right is that people think too broadly about theirmarket segment. So if I was trying to design a car that served the needs of300 million people, I'd end up with a pretty lackluster un interesting carbecause I have to sort of address everybody's needs. But if I focus onyou know, people who want to go off roading, I could start making morefocused products. I could start thinking about designing a Jeep,something that's gonna look very specific and have a value proposition.Banks for the exact same way. If you think about your customers in this verybroad 300 million population in the U. S, you're not gonna have a hook. You'renot gonna have anything that's gonna be compelling for those people to comeover. But if I start focusing on a niche of or a segment of the population.It actually allows me to get to a solution much faster that could bemeaningful to them. You're echoing the words of been Stop it. Who's thefounder and CEO of Unify Money? And they have a specific niche high incomeearners, those that make $150,000 and mawr. And I think they narrowed theirmarket segment down to about 15 million people, more or less. But they're veryclear of who they're going to create value for. And if you fall outside ofthat, no hard feelings, it's just not. It's not part of our growth plan.Another one that comes off the top of my head is aspiration. I mean literallyon their website. They have Leave your bank, change the world. There's a goodchance your bank is using your money to fund oil projects that destroy theclimate. Put your money where your values are joint aspiration today andthen they've built their whole positioning and go to market strategyand even their product design, like turn every transaction into a positiveaction plant. A climate change fighting tree with every purchase about roundingup to the nearest whole dollar like they're not gonna be for everyone.Aspiration that ISS. And they've got really clear, though. So yeah, this isthis idea of how, Okay, I'm a CEO. I get what you're saying. I got somefears, though, because it's like, Well, I'm turning away all this otheropportunity. How are you gonna help me overcome those fears? Jeffrey Technology has transformed our world,and digital has changed the way consumers shop for and buy financialservices forever. Now, consumers make purchase decisions long before theywalk into a branch if they walk into a branch at all. But your financial brandstill wants to grow loans and deposits. We get it. Digital growth can feelconfusing, frustrating and overwhelming for any financial brand marketing andsales leader. But it doesn't have thio because James Robert wrote the bookthat guides you every step of the way along your digital growth journey.Visit www dot digital growth dot com to get a preview of his best selling book,Banking on Digital Growth, or order a copy right now for you and your teamfrom Amazon. Inside, you'll find a strategic marketing manifesto that waswritten to transform financial brands, and it is packed full of practical andproven insights you can start using today to confidently generate 10 timesmore loans and deposits. Now back to the show. Well, I think one of the things thathas changed materially is that even in the past three years, the cost, theenergy, the time, the focus, everything required a tremendous amount of energyif you wanted to start a digital bank or a segment or niche bank. So let'sjust rewind, you know, to a couple of projects that I had experienced withinmy my past life helping banks start...

...digital brands. Well, the challenge wasis that if you wanted to start a digital bank 35 years ago, you had yourcore processor over here. You had to pick a modern digital banking front endover here, and you had to pick a bill pay provider and a card processor andon and on and on. And by the time that you got everything that you neededtogether to start the digital bank, it was you had 15 to 20 vendors minimuminvolved in this pond. There was this tremendous amount of complexity tobring it all together that by the way, the bank was responsible for executingon not the vendors. The vendors all played their individual role, but theyweren't responsible for the whole project coming together and beingsuccessful. The bank for all that risk, what happened was that price tag turnedinto something that was 25 to $30 million. Honestly, that the two digitalbanks I'm thinking of that I was involved with. It took 2, 2.5 years andit was north, you know, close to 30 million bucks before they ever had onecustomer. Now the technology is evolving, and now that people arefocused on solving this problem, you can actually start a niche bank for,you know, less than a million bucks. And so we've What we've done is we'vemade the decision much, much smaller and much. And we've taken the risk offof the bank to make sure that everybody comes together and launches the, youknow, brings all the technology together. And we've taken on that risk,you know, from our company perspective. And again, we're not the only onesdoing great things out. Digital banking. There's lots of great suppliers outthere and great software companies, and we love that. But today it's easier fora CEO to say, You know what? Starting a digital bank is not risky anymore. It'snot gonna cost me 25 million bucks. It's not going to take the 30 people inour call center, you know, d focus them for six months while they learn a newbrand and offer and products. So let's yeah, let's practically talk about thatbecause, I mean, you know, to build a physical branch location. Traditionally $345 million. Uh, easy, easy. But we'retalking just, you know, kind of average run of the mill, you know, communitybranch gonna cast 500,000 to 7. 50 operationally to keep that thing up andrunning. And you're talking about being able to do almost the exact same thingfor a niche market. Do you see, because now that's almost like a branch in ofitself. Do you see? Is there a potential for a nephi to have multipledigital bank brands focus around multiple niche markets? Absolutely.Absolutely. I think where the market has started, you know, sort of had toget its head around. Was one digital brand. Yeah, but then, as you get theit's the cost for for digital bank goes down and the niche gets way morefocused, you can imagine somebody having 20 and digital banks as part ofthe banks. And so now portfolio. Exactly. So the analogy. I always usethis look. Today's banks are like big box stores. I walk into the warehousestore and there's lots of products, and I could probably find everything I need,and that's one way of going to market. But there's also another way of goingto market, which is to think more like a high end shopping mall. And so when Iwalk into the shopping mall, there's a Cartier store and there's a forever 21a Rolex and Nordstrom and all these great brands that are very, veryfocused on what the value is that they're bringing to that customer. Whattheir product offer is etcetera. That's where I try to encourage banks to thinkabout where we're going in the future, which is don't think about your one bigbrand serving. Everybody think about how am I going to go create brands thatactually reflect the base of the consumer that I want. I even wroteabout. Yeah, I even wrote about this in banking on digital growth. You know,this this idea of you got the Wal Marts of the world. They're competing onprice, and that's a very dangerous...

...place to be because it's pricesensitivity. It's always gonna be, you know, pushing downward on the oppositeend of the spectrum. You have the niche brands, and I think you might have used,like BMW to come back to your car example, and it's, ah, higher and brand.But they're able to get more of a premium out of it because I think tofinancial brands that focus around a niche you're creating community. You'recreating like minds, and you're creating deep level expertise withwhatever that that niche market is. Take chewy. For example, the dogcompany you know you could buy your dog products off of Amazon, but you're notgoing to get the het level of expertise that Chewy would be able to provide.And chewy has its own brand, affinity and community kind of already builtinto to that whole niche market in and of itself. So I like that a portfolioof digital banks. Target a really, for you by example. So we're working withto bank brands right now that we're launching, and these are examples ofwhat we call niches. So one is a bank that's focused on the customer segmentof newlyweds. So if you think about focusing on people in a specificjourney point in their life, you know when we get married, we bring togethertwo different sets of finances. Two different sets of accounts. Studentloan, debt consolidation. There's all these things that has a newlywed thatthere's different financial challenges that you have. And so we came up withthis concept and we're launching that. But then we asked ourselves thequestion. I said, Well, that's a point in time. What happens when you're not anewlywed anymore? What happens a year from now or two years from now or threeyears from now? We were like, I don't identify with that group anymore, thatit's irrelevant to me where I am now in my life. So then we said, Well, we needa bank that serves the next neither stage of their life. And so we came upwith the concept of an intergenerational bank s. So this wholeidea of the way that we think about finances with our family, with ourChildren, with our parents, that's all getting more murky. Uh, you know, andthere's a big market segment. It's like, you know, as I got older, I had tostart helping my parents take care of their finances. And I'm also helping my25 year old daughter take care of her finances. And so I need this point ofview that it's not just me anymore. I'm actually managing the the financialsfor for people who are part of my family. So we were like, Well, as thenewlyweds sort of start aging and getting more mature in their lifejourney, then you move them over into this intergenerational bank, and nowthey're in a place that serves the needs of that stage, and it could beindefinite the amount of different stages that you go to. But when youstart thinking about the customer and their life journey, those are theanswers you get versus well, let's just have one big brand that serveseverybody's needs. Yeah, and I think about like the newlywed perspective mywife and I, we do marriage prep for couples. And if you're gonna focusaround a niche market segment, then you can go to others that serve that sameniche market. For example, there's a brand called Prepare and Rich thathelps marriage prep Well, then you can have cross alignment with these otherbrands serving the niche market to co create value for said market. And it'sit's a multiplying effect of value creation across the board. So there'sthat, like, co brand affinity opportunity that I see as well I mean,this is a great practical example. Absolutely. And I think that's That'sanother place where bankers need to worry or have been thinking about thethreat coming in, which is, you know, you've seen it. We've seen it for 30years with airline, you know, Miles credit cards, right? Every hotel,training and airline has benefited off of creating, you know, rewards, pointsand affinity with their brand and their credit card spending. Well, now it'sactually starting to go even deeper into financial life, and this wholeidea embedded finance is it's now sort...

...of taking part of other brands and, youknow, the apple credit cards like the perfect example, which is You have abig brand that recognized as a huge base of consumers, a niche that theyconserve. Let's go create a financial product, put it in their hands and growlike crazy. I think we're going to see a lot more of big brands gettingcreative about how they take parts of people's financial lives and bring itinto their into their institutions. And I don't think we're We've seen the sortof apex of where that strategy can go were still climbing the mountain. But Ilook to examples like Starbucks, Starbuck says, to $2 billion plus ofdeposits in their gift card program. It's now starting to be like Wait,that's actually like real money that's going through there and that's takingmoney. You know, that's what they have Billion dollars in Starbucks used to beout in a checking account, someone that's not anymore and and that's Ithink we're seeing some erosion from brands and tech they're taking in thatdirection. I mean, coming back make this very practical, you know? Nichebanking brand for coffee lovers. Niche banking brand for Scotch lovers. Nichebanking brand for pet lovers, then you can cross partner with to I mean,there's so many. And I think like it's just opening up, going up to the apexof awareness, getting really clear about what the opportunities are andthen committing to that committing. And here's a question for you. When youthink about digital banking, what is a common belief that others in theindustry might have about the subject and the idea of digital banking thatyou just passionately disagree with? I think it's probably less that disagreewith. But I would say that we need to evolve our thinking about the value ofdigital banking and the way that I kind of see the journey that we're on. Ithink about digital banking in Dato stages because I'm in software and I'mtrying to think that way. But, you know, digital one Dato was, you know,basically providing access Thio tools through either online banking or, let's,let's say, mobile banking. When that started taking off, it was all aboutbeing able to check a balance, make a payment, you know, see where your moneyis, etcetera. So it was really about, you know, just information. Then itstarted you know, moving towards just transactional self service, which iswhere digital to Dato, I think took over. And people recognize that like,Hey, the first version of digital that we had was kind of clunky. The userexperience find out being created was the first version out. No one knew whatthey were doing. So then everybody, pretty five or six years ago got reallysuper focused around the user experience, the user interface, makingsure that it was this great experience like Netflix or, you know, some othergreat digital brand. But it was still the features, and what you could dowith digital banking was still all around self service. There was nothingthat I could do to, actually, really. It wasn't focused around opening newaccounts or having access to new products or thinking about growth. Andnow I think digital three D Otto is aligned with where you know your thesisis for, you know, the works that you published in and and the themes thatyou talked about, which is now. It's not just enough to have Ah, great highfidelity looking at CEOs of banking, a bank, they're going. Wait a minute. I'minvesting millions of dollars into my digital stuff. How's it actuallyhelping me grow? And when I say grow, I don't mean taking call center callsaway. I mean, adding new deposits, adding new loans, making things youknow, grow in that regard. Acquisition? Yeah, and and that's that's not beenpart of the theme yet. And I said, I think that as an industry, as softwareproviders and as tech providers, we are behind the times in serving the bankswhere they need to be. And that's my biggest frustration with legacy techproviders is that we have an obligation to keep faith and push our banks andand be there for them when they need...

...growth. And we're not doing that. Iwant to touch on that. I mean, you know, you wrote a very strong perspectivepiece on LinkedIn, and these were your words quote, and you literally justsaid, it's that I'm frustrated by the legacy Bank tech providers, their post,their videos, their webinars and monitoring banks were falling behindand not investing in digital fast enough. It's like the captor tellingthe captive they should do a better job at escaping if I as know they need tofind new ways to attract and retain customers. Our responsibility is techpartners is to remove obstacles to growth instead of moving the technologygoalposts and then telling them that they're behind their behind because ofyou and that post received, I mean, it struck a nerve. It received over 317reactions. 33 comments. Can you expand on this Because I'm in 100% agreementwith you? As I know many of our dear listener, Zara's Well, yeah, it's funny.Sometimes you have to be naive or ignorant about an industry before youcan kind of see where the flaws are. And I'm not a banker by background. Istarted my career in health care and I was a software engineer, and for 15years I was focused on solving problems in health care I t and patientexperience. And so when I started started getting interested in fintechand banking, I had an outsider's view. It was sort of like, Well, that'sstupid. Why are we doing that? Or why? Why? Why don't you switch your core?And you know, if you've heard this like constant conversation in the marketwhich I don't think surprises anyone, which is, if you ask bank executivesand say, Hey, how do you How do you feel about your relationship with yourcore banking provider generally not positive and, in fact, the majority ofthe time? It's probably more integrity mystic than that. And but people feeltrapped and they feel trapped because the core providers are the ones thatthey're dependent on. Thio introduce new digital banking technologies, butthey're 5 to 6 years behind the technology curve of what other thingswe're used to in our consumer lives. So they're just not keeping up with wherecustomers want the banks to be, and you know it was. But the behind the scenesthat post was I saw an ad from a traditional legacy provider, and itsaid you should. It was something about digital transformation and the, youknow, the need for banks to continue to invest in digital transformation. And Iwas like I could name 15 CEOs that use you as a company right now, and theywould fire you in a heartbeat if they could, because you've prevented themand you haven't given them the digital tools that they've been begging for forfive years, and that, to me, is the frustration. Andi. I also think thatsome of the business practices that are common in the industry are number one.They're I think they're at very least they're bad for competition and theeconomy and borderline unethical. I say that with Cem. You know that that won'tmake me really popular with companies that start with the letter F. But, youknow, I believe that having exclusive contracts is a horrible thing forcustomers was a horrible thing for customers. And it's a horrible thingfor innovation because, you know, here's the thing. You know it's theMicrosoft model, right? And and and to your point, all progress, all growth,all transformation starts by telling the truth. And I think the more that wehave these honest conversations, the MAWR, that will elevate this entireindustry together. And that's the thing. This is about, ah, mindset of what Icall abundance to where there's enough opportunity to go around for all of usto create together. We're on the flip side of this, it's it's scarcity, andwe're always gonna be competing and fighting. And when when that happens,no one wins. It's a zero sum game. And I'm really hoping to elevate the thingsconversation to a much more positive...

...stance toe like the one we've had today.Yeah, I totally agree. I you know, I feel bad for a lot of the banks and thecredit unions because they want to grow. They wanna be awesome. Attentional Theywant to have all these tools. And the problem is, is that they just don'tfeel they can't get those from from the legacy providers a rate that they need.And it was funny. There was another, uh, Chuck, when I won't call them out, youknow, fully by name. But there was an advertisement assault from the Legacytech provider, and the headline was, We've simplified contracts. We've madeit easier. We're not locking you until a long term contractor. We're allowingyou to pay month to month. And I thought, How funny is it that your leadmessage to the market about why you're great is that we're not going to screwyou anymore? E thought that. Is that some rich marketing and messaging goingon there when it's like, Well, you shouldn't have been doing that to beginwith. Why is that now, like a You know, it's a positive message that we're notgonna abuse you any longer, but I think that's the thinking of legacy providers.And look, they want growth. They need growth just like everybody else in themarket. So they're searching. But they're doing themselves a disserviceby looking for growth in contract terms and not in innovating and building newproduct. Well, I mean, it's the innovator's dilemma being played outbefore our very eyes, right? And I think that the neat thing with whatyou're doing and really your perspective, your background comingfrom health care is there's so much opportunity. If you can fix someone'swallet, you can help them improve their physical well being. If you can fixsomeone's wallet, you can improve their mental well being because they're sointerconnected. And I think that's that's the biggest opportunities thatthat I'm looking at when it comes to just this idea of digital growth andyou mentioned this before. Let's stop thinking of ourselves as bankers, butour elevate our the value that we can bring to the world into the communitiesthat we serve when we wrap up. This has been such a great conversation, Jeffrey.I appreciate the knowledge and the insights that you've transferred today.One recommendation. If there's one recommendation that you could make tobankers and Financial brand leaders, credit union leaders, what would thatone recommendation be that they could commit to over the next year? That za great question? I would sayit's a pretty simple one, and it's think about your customers holisticallyversus just their banking relationship. And what I mean by that is beforesomebody ever opens up their mobile banking app on their phone in themorning or during the day, they've opened up 15 other APS. They've done 15other things. Think about what your product does in the context of theirbroader life, versus just thinking about the particular transaction thatyou're trying to do with them, and that will lead you to understand your nichemarkets and how to serve and create longer term, sort of more deeprelationships with your customers than what we're doing today. So, you know,think about it. It's like what happens when I go to Starbucks and I made apayment, and now I've, you know gone on to a different happened. Now I'm in mybanking app. Think about ways that you could bring all that together and fitin in a contextual way in people's lives versus just I. I'm their bankerand this is what I do. And I think they'll be growth if you can figure outand truly understand the customer. If I could bring that back, put people atthe center off all of your thinking, all of your doing, and really commit toputting the transformation of people over what I would just call thecommoditized transaction of dollars and cents 100%. Jeffrey. No, think about it.No, it doesn't. And if someone wants to...

...continue this conversation with you,what's the best way for them to reach out, Connect with you and say hello?Yeah. LinkedIn nimbus dot com My email addresses Jake Kendall at nimbus dotcom. I love hearing from people so glad to connect and and trade more thoughtswith with anybody in the industry. All right, Jeffrey, thank you so much forjoining me on another episode of banking on Digital growth, JamesRoberts. Been a true pleasure of love talking with you love hearing yourideas, so keep up the great work. Really appreciate it as always. Anduntil next time be well, do good and wash your hands. Thank you forlistening to another episode of banking on Digital Growth with James Robert Ley.Like what you hear. Tell a friend about the podcast and leave us a review onApple podcasts, Google Podcast or Spotify and subscribe while you'rethere. To get even more practical in proven insights, visit www dot digitalgrowth dot com to grab a preview of James Roberts bestselling book Bankingon Digital Growth or order a copy right now for you and your team from Amazon.Inside, you'll find a strategic marketing and sales blueprint framedaround 12 key areas of focus that empower you to confidently generate 10times more loans and deposits until next time, be well and do good.

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