Banking on Digital Growth
Banking on Digital Growth

Episode · 7 months ago

87) #ExponentialInsights: How Brain Chemicals Affect Banking Choices

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Your conscious brain is ruled by your subconscious brain, which does between 95% and 99.999% of the work. How does this affect your decision making?

In this Exponential Insights episode of Banking on Digital Growth, I interview Melina Palmer, Founder and CEO at The Brainy Business, about marketing and the human brain.

What we talked about:

- The conscious vs. the subconscious

- The most influential brain chemical in marketing

- How to get people to change their behavior & the IKEA effect

Check out these resources we mentioned during the podcast:

- Melina’s book

- Melina’s podcast

- Benjamin Hardy’s book

- Melina was my guest previously on Ep. 29


You can find this interview and many more by subscribing to Banking on Digital Growth on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, or here. 

...we know we have a conscious brain. Weknow we have a subconscious brain. We would like to think that the consciousbrain is doing most of everything that we're doing. Unfortunately, that's justreally not the case. And so the highest study I've seen puts this at 99.999 ofwhat's happening in our brains being done by that subconscious. Mhm. You're listening to banking on digitalgrowth. With James Robert lay a podcast that empowers financial brand marketing,sales and leadership teams to maximize their digital growth potential bygenerating 10 times more loans and deposits. Today's episode is part ofthe exponential insight series where James robert interviews the industry'stop marketing sales and fintech leaders, sharing practical wisdom toexponentially elevate you and your team. Let's get into the show greetings andhello, I am James robert, ley and welcome to the 87th episode of theBanking on Digital Growth podcast. Today's episode is part of theexponential insight series and I'm excited to welcome Molina palmer to theshow. Molina is the founder and the ceo of the Brainy business. Host of theBrainy Business podcast. She's also a columnist for inc dot com and sheteaches applied behavioral economics and marketing, pricing, changemanagement and more at texas A and M's human behaviour lab. But more recentlyand I'm really excited about this. I'm really excited for Molina because I'veknown Molina for a long time, Molina is the author of a brand new book, whatyour customer wants and can't tell you unlocking consumer decisions withscience of behavioral economics. Lots to talk about today. Welcome back tothe show Molina. Absolutely. Thanks for having me. It is good to welcome youback because I Thoroughly enjoyed our first conversation and that went backto episode 29, using your brain to cope with change. And a lot has changed forall of us since that time. And so besides the launch of the book Molina,what is one thing that you are most excited about right now? I feel likeeverything is really kind of revolving in that book space right now. Butredoing, we were talking about this a little bit before getting started, justkind of shuffling some things in my business, getting prepared for thatbook lunch and really ramping up to be doing big, cool projects that I'mreally excited about and new website and all those things and I, I am soexcited for you. This has been a long time coming. You've, you've put in somuch hard work to get to this point leading up with the podcast and thenthe book and I got to take a sneak peek at it and I was like, oh my God, thisis this is something that everyone needs to read specifically in thefinancial services space. Because there's so much that we can do from abehavioral economics to to really encourage positive behavior, not onlyinternally with change management, but also externally in the lives of accountholders. Because because money is stressful and and in your new book,what your customer wants and can't tell you, you really have unlocked a apowerful machine on the planet even in the age of ai being the brain withsomething that's simple, it's approachable. I could even understandit. Uh and and and take advantage of this. So I want to ask the mostimportant question, why do this in the first place? Because I know how painfulit is to write a book, but you've done it. But let's start with why go here inthe first place? I would say that I've always had it kind of in the back of mymind, I would write a book as a kind of...

...a side story, like what feels like apast life. When I when I worked at the credit union that I was at years ago, Ihad started doing freelance work and I did book editing for a couple years.And so I think I have a deeper understanding of books than otherpeople and doing those like developmental edits, which I know thatyou get right, the restructuring of the logic of it and everything. And so itwasn't quite as intimidating for me though, once I got into it, you kind ofgo app. Um but I really found I think through the podcast and through nowteaching at texas A and m like you said, I really have, I really just wanteveryone to be able to understand this amazing field of behavioral science andhow it works and how you can use and apply it in a way that just not seeinganybody else doing. And a lot of the books on behavioral economics orbehavioral science so far are either just this, we found this in a studyisn't that cool? And we found this isn't that cool, Like, yeah, this iscool, but there's no how do I do that? How do I do something with it? Andthere are a couple like text books, just like hardcore textbooks, Not verymany of those either, but having this spot in between of helping people inbusiness to be able to understand what they need to understand and nothingmore. And be able to have that confidence to start using this insightso they can up level the work they're already doing and not have to changecareers to become an academic researcher. It's something that Ireally wanted to provide that was the really the goal of the book. Yeah,you're right and I agree with you because there's there's a massivedifference between knowing on one side of the spectrum and growing on theother and that is the application or applying that knowledge to bring it tofruition to create value. And I was just I was just guest lecturing at auniversity the other day and it was for a class of marketing students. And theprofessor asked me like what is one thing that you could recommend to thesestudents if they want to continue to excel in their careers? And I saidstudy human behavior. I said people will tell you what they want, notalways by their words, but really more importantly from their action andthat's what I appreciate about the work that you've been doing is it is sorooted in research, but you've been able to apply it and simplify it forothers to understand. And you open up the book by helping us understand twokey parts of the brain. And I love the way you frame this. It's it's liketrying to get a meeting with Oprah who doesn't, who doesn't want to meet Oprah.But but what are these two key parts of the brain? What role do they play andwhy is it important specifically for financial brand, marketing cells andleadership teams to understand how these two parts of the brain worktogether? Yeah. So we have in behavioral economics you would hear ittalked about a system one and system to I don't like those terms because theyactually don't speak well to System one. Just 40 point. I know that's the pointI'll be talking about like system one does this like which one is that? Idon't know. So I like to just say conscious and subconscious for how theywork. So Essentially we know we have a conscious brain, we know we have asubconscious brain. We would like to think that the conscious brain is doingmost of everything that we're doing. Unfortunately, that's just really notthe case. And so the highest study I've seen puts this at 99.999 of what'shappening in our brains being done by that subconscious piece, which is notgreat ratio wise. And you know, the lowest studies put it at 95%. So it'sstill the vast, vast majority of stuff.

And so to think about this, it's notlike, you know, sometimes subconscious is on sometime conscious is on, it'sreally more like a gatekeeper or like I say, the receptionist, if you're tryingto get a meeting with Oprah, like you have to get through the subconscious tobe important enough to make it into that conscious brain because it hasvery limited capacity. It uses a lot more energy to do things in thatconscious space and its capacity just is smaller. So that subconscious isconstantly scanning the world around you to say like that's normal, I knowhow to do that, that's normal, normal, normal, normal. And then kind of like,oh, this is weird, you know, conscious europe and you can go do something. Soin this case your conscious brain is Oprah, that's the like the meeting thatyou're able to get there. How much, like, you know, when we look at thebrain and kind of these not necessarily systems, but different structural partsof the brain. The reptilian brain, the limbic system, the neocortex. It's thatit's the reptilian, that lizard brain, the oldest part of the brain thatreally is scanning the environment. And I like to call it the binary brainbecause it's it's either I trust you or I don't trust you. It's fight or itsflight. It's it's one or it's zero. How much does does that play in regards tothe subconscious from an environmental scanning and awareness? Because a lotof this is like, once again marketing messages, like we're scanning and we'recreating these these decisions that were not even aware of consciously atthe subconscious level. Yeah. So all that stuff you're talking about, the uhthat lizard brain, the senses, the limbic system, that's all really inthat subconscious space and it is the senses in taking and whether we likesomething instinctively or not. I also kind of would say this is we like tosay that like something felt wrong like in my gut, like when your gut sayssomething to you and you can't quite articulate it, that's probably asubconscious sort of alert that I don't I'm not gonna tell you why I don't likethat because your subconscious and conscious don't speak the same languageso they really can't, they don't communicate very well. But when we'relooking at communicating through marketing, the imagery you use can beincredibly impactful whether you have descriptive and colorful language makesa big difference. I while it's not a financial institution sort of thing,just thinking about if you were looking at buying a new couch and it saysmaterial leather, Okay, right, fine. At the end, I'm notlike jazzed about that. But if it says like material, like buttery softchocolate brown leather, you know, that's a couch, I want to sink into anasleep. Yeah, yeah. Or it keeps you cool or like that more description andusing that power in metaphor or imagery that is getting at the deeper story isgoing to resonate better with the subconscious, even if someone can'tarticulate why? Because well, you just literally painted a picture in my mindthat I couldn't only see, I could feel and I could even taste you saidchocolate. I'm like, chocolate is somewhat like, like and you justtriggered so, so many chemicals and and and maybe let's talk about this idea ofchemicals and and not getting to scientific. And once again, you do afantastic job of doing this in the book. It's full of research, but it'ssimplified because I think the brain and really the brain chemicals, it'sanother area of opportunity for financial brands to under understand,especially when it comes to developing...

...experiences whether those experiencesare online or offline or, or as you've just done craft and tell stories,because it's through the experiences, it's through these stories that youfire chemicals off in the brain that many of us might not even think aboutwhen it comes to just developing strategy. What are some of thesechemical, like what did you just do to me when you said chocolate, you firedsomething off of my brain? What are the chemicals that we must consider andwhat role do they play in marketing and then sells? So the top four kind ofbrain chemicals that we would look at in this space are the dose brainchemicals. So you have dopamine, oxytocin, serotonin and endorphins. Theone that I think is most relevant for brands is dopamine, and it's becausedopamine is tied with anticipation and it motivates us to achieve goals and tokeep moving and having someone do something with your business regardlessof what it is that you're selling your needing them to feel that motivation totake an action and go do something. And so creating anticipation is reallycritical in that case. But what we tend to do wrong and what are logical,conscious brain where we think the joy should be in the payoff is not where itactually is. So great study that was done that was looking at Monkeys and sothey had been trained. You know that when the light goes on, if you pressthis lever 10 times you get a treat and then light 10 times treat, Right? So weknow that you want the reward. It's something that they're wanting to get.And if we were to think about this, we can use chocolate as an example if it'slike you see the sign and then you go get the you go in and you get yourpiece of chocolate. Like where do you think the most dopamine? Which is whatour brain wants. When does that hit? And I know that you know because youread it in the book but the logical thought would be I get the payoff. Thereward is when I actually put that chocolate in my mouth, I get to like itstarts to melt or whatever does I get that flavor? That's the like where Ithink the kind of explosion the goodness is but actually what theyfound is the dopamine release starts when the light goes on And it's at itshighest while you're doing the work where you're anticipating getting thething hitting the lever to 10 times and it stops when they get the treat.That's when the goodness ends. So, one teaches us something about weight lossand dieting and stuff. It's all that anticipation is what your brain reallylikes. But the really, really crazy thing then they looked at what happensif You made it. So they only got the treat 50 of the time. So then lightgoes on hit 10 times. No treat. Light goes on again, hit 10 times. Get atreat and it doubled. Huh? So when you have this uncertainty and you don'tknow what's going to happen, you have more anticipation and your brain likesthat. And so we want to give people things as soon as possible, give themthe payoff. But that's not where the joy really is. There's a little bit ofthat build up to get there and if they're not sure if you're doinggiveaways or you feel like we have to, everyone needs one or else people aregoing to get mad. But actually the chance of winning has a lot more ofthat dopamine released and the joy that comes with it. So there's a lot ofbenefit without having to give everyone something in that same way. So a coupleof thoughts hearing you dialogue through. This is one E. D. M. Orelectronic dance music. They always...

...have these massive builds and then thepayoff and then the drop. But it's the it's the bill, it's the anticipationbecause if you listen to E. D. M. You know, there's the build coming and butit's not the drop, that's the payoff, It's the build up, it's theanticipation leading up to that. And then number two, uh he was having thisconversation with my wife about date nights, and we were watching a ted talk,I mean that's kind of how nerdy we we get on this and it's the it's thescience behind it. And one of the things that we were listening to theTed talk was the role of date nights in maintaining a healthy relationship. Andit's not necessarily the date that creates the value, it's what you'retalking about, it's the anticipation leading up to the to that date thatcreates all of the in this particular case is your it's the dopamine, it'slike bleeding that experience out, and I can think like we're coming up on our15 year wedding anniversary and we've been researching, you know, where we'regoing to go for for a weekend escape, and I think there's a lot of dopaminethat's firing off in in that search. And then now that we have found a place,it's like there's that anticipation. So it's it's interesting to hear you, youyou talk through this and coming back to financial services I can think ofand I've seen a lot of this from a social engineering perspective ofregistration or whatever it might be, but then you're also encouraging peopleto share this and it's creating, it's that anticipation of wanting to knowwho might win, whatever this activity or prize might be. Am I correct withthis thinking here? Yeah. And I think there's also if we were to take it intoa less contests are a clear place where we can see this, but if you look at theprocess of waiting to know if your loan application was approved. So, so thereare some important caveats of this, right? So we don't want to stretch itout and make people wait longer than they have to, but knowing that there issome joy for the brain in that anticipation of if it's going to workout and helping to showcase that it's being worked on reminding them thatprogress, this is like the, you know, the pizza tracker where you see thingsare happening when there's something that we're not super were sort ofexcited about the outcome, but it makes you a little bit nervous and likewhat's going to be happening, how long is it going to be? And that reminder ofkeeping it, like we're focused on you, we've got a team working on it rightnow, like we'll be back to you tomorrow, like keeping them like on the edge withexcitement while you're giving them updates could be a good way potentiallyto be incorporating some of that dopamine and anticipation in somethingthat's traditionally a not fun experience. They're feelinganticipation in a negative way if they're waiting just stressing, but ifyou can make it a little bit more of a positive that could actually have areally big impact over time. Technology has transformed our world and digitalhas changed the way consumers shop for and buy financial services forever. Nowconsumers make purchase decisions long before they walk into a branch. If theywalk into a branch at all, but your financial brand still wants to growloans and deposits, we get it. Digital growth can feel confusing, frustratingand overwhelming for any financial brand marketing and sales leader, butit doesn't have to because James robert wrote the book that guides you everystep of the way along your digital growth journey, visit www dot digitalgrowth dot com to get a preview of his best selling book banking on digitalgrowth or order a copy right now for...

...you and your team from amazon insideyou'll find a strategic marketing manifesto that was written to transformfinancial brands and it is packed full of practical and proven insights youcan start using today to confidently generate 10 times more loans anddeposits now back to the show practically applied. I see two sides ofthe equation here one is what happens post conversion and something as simpleas woo hoo. We've got your application, here's what happens next step one, steptwo, step three and then communicating with them as they're going through thatpart of the journey. But then if you go pre application, you can also provideanticipation as to what that journey might look like for them. Step one,step two, step three and we're seeing financial brands deploying thatthinking in regards to website position. So now it makes sense of why this worksbecause it's, it's tapping into this, this in creating this dopamine affectanother area in the book. And, and really an opportunity I see once moreis framed around leveraging the power Of questions. And this echoes aconversation that I recently had with Whitney Low and episode 72, which isfive steps to improve your customers financial wellness, where we discussedthe opportunity for financial brand marketing and sales teams, is to getreally good at asking good questions. Why is this important? And what aresome of the challenges when it comes to just thinking about questions orputting putting it another way, as dan Sullivan notes, just simply thinkingabout your thinking yes, thinking about thinking that's such an important thingto do. And questions are my jam. I do a lot of training on questions storminginstead of brainstorming, which we'll talk about in a minute. I love workingwith teams on that. It makes such a big difference. But I think one of thethings that every single client and every listener, the podcast has heardme say at least once is and then eventually here everyone who gets thebook too is it's really easy to find the right answer to the wrong question.And more often than not, people are asking the wrong question and it'sbecause and the first part of the book goes into these biases of our brainwhere we are programmed to think we're smarter, faster, better than everyoneelse, including who we were five minutes ago. It's just how it's set up.And so when you look at a problem you're trying to solve to say like weneed a better loyalty program, we need to be working on, you know, people wantthis faster experience or everybody we need to be there. Pf I write kind ofthese constant things that people talk about, these kind of become these knowntruths and when you're within the organization, it seems very obviouswhat the problem is. However, it's often not, it's often not the actualproblem. And so if you just jump into trying to solve that problem, it's notgoing to actually do what you need it to do. Whereas if you take the time toinvestigate and see what's going on, what the actual behavioral issue is andwhat you're trying to adjust for the consumer or members of your team, it isgoing to serve you so much better. I love too Use the it's attributed toEinstein of saying, if you were given an hour and you had to solve theproblem to save the world, you know, how would you spend that hour? And hesays he would spend 55 minutes thinking about the problem and then five minutessolving it because and so if Einstein was going to be giving 55 minutes ofhis respective our to understand the problem, we really need to think aboutour ratios because most people just really jump into what they think theproblem is and it's going to put you down the wrong path. Yeah. You'rerecalling a scene from Moneyball with...

...brad Pitt and there's a great scenewhere brad pitt playing billy Beane. He says, they're sitting around the tableand they're trying to replace these players that they had lost and thescouts are trying to solve the problem from the traditional lens, from whatthey know And and Billy Bean's coming in here and he's providing a differentperspective and he says, there are rich teams, there are poor teams, thenthere's 50 ft of crap and then there's us, you're not even thinking about theproblem from the right context and I agree with you like so there there arefour what I call four digital growth operating environments. You can belearning, you can be thinking, you can be doing or you could be reviewing butyou can only be in one environment at a time and where I see so manyinstitutions and organizations get stuck, it doesn't matter if yourmarketing cells leadership, it's in the doing environment. What are theopportunities to help create that space and time to break free from the doingto stop pause review, reflect to learn from that experience, to think aboutthat and then be able to apply that thinking to the next iteration, thenext round of doing otherwise. We just our our future will repeat its past.Yeah, that's so when I work with organizations on question storming,this is where So instead of so the thing that you do, we've got a problem.Like we need to increase memberships right? We need to drive checkingaccounts, whatever, whatever it is, and then you say so like what are thesolutions to get that done? And then we could do a B C. And you're coming upwith a bunch of solutions to a very specifically articulated problem, whichagain, a slight change in ver bage opens up a completely different problemthat you're working on, so making sure you really, really, really know thescope of what you're working on. It is very important. So instead of startingwith that question and coming up with a bunch of solutions which does not workwell with our brain, people don't want to speak up because if you don't havethe perfect solution, you're gonna look stupid or you might get saddled with aproject, you don't have time for all these things. If instead you start witha statement and then you generate a lot of questions, it gives you anopportunity to look at things very differently. And so when I do this,we'll work with those known truths to say changing financial institutions ishard. Is there anybody that says that? That's not a true statement. Like ingeneral, every financial institution would probably say that that issomething that is difficult for people and they don't want to do it. And so ifso if we say that's our statement, we're going to start with. And then weasked us many questions about it as we can, like hard for who? What if it waseasy? Does that matter? Who cares? Like do people ever like to have changed? Bedifficult? We were just talking about dopamine and anticipation, What wouldmake it worth it? Why would people put in the time to change? When do peoplenot care about that? All these things you can be asking and then half hour orso of working on this with teams to come up with hundreds of questions thatshow that that's just not necessarily accurate and that helps open up yourthinking in a different way. You find some new questions that are interestingto go and research, learn a little bit more about maybe scope of projectaround. And then you can work on solving that much more interestingproblem that can also help you to stand out against your competitors becausethey're not doing this. Yeah. This is a question that I had asked a financialbrand recently because they were trying to develop a digital purpose statementthat goes far beyond promoting just the same commoditized dollars and cents.And I was like, look, let me just back...

...up, what would happen if your financialbrand just went away no longer existed, what would be lost forever? And theresponses that we got back were completely different than how they weretrying to approach it by what's the purpose, Why do we exist? It was just asmall change in reframing their thinking to apply this. And and theystarted going down a path of there would be less choices and people wouldget screwed by the big banks and that no one would be here to take care ofthem. And it kept going deeper and deeper and deeper in this idea of, youknow, financial empowerment, financial well being, and that that idea offinancial wellness, financial well being, there is a tremendousopportunity I hear and I see for financial brands that is really rootedwhat we're just kind of talking about. Maybe we can go deeper with, which ischange management. In fact, some of the challenges that financial brands arefacing when it comes to digital growth, digital transformation, however youwant to frame that there's a lot of empathy that they can share forconsumers who are going through the same struggles when it comes tofinancial stress and financial wellness. So why is it so hard for people totransform their behaviors, their habits and really even deeper their beliefs?They're thinking what is holding them back that's keeping them stuck in aconsistent pattern when they logically know what they're doing is not the bestpath forward, but they keep going down that path anyway. Yeah. So this isdefinitely just rooted in how our brains are set up and what we'retalking about with the conscious and the subconscious. So your subconsciousbrain, which does 99 of everything that's happening in your life and thatof your consumers and your peers and everybody else is built on habits andpredictability and it likes the status quo and it is wanting to keep as muchstuff as it can in its handling instead of having to send it to the consciousAnd so habits are the things that likes and we'll be seeking out and it chooseswhat filters and makes it to your conscious brain. So I use this in thequestion storming and change management. So I teach a course on changemanagement at texas A and M. And how the brain ties in with all of this. Andso essentially if you were to think about changing behavior and we saychange is hard. This is another one of those known truths that I like to workwith. Unquestioned storming. So changing the structured rules of thebrain in the way that they exist in the habits that we have formed is very hard.And of course this is in the book too. So yes, changing what has been buildingfor eons is difficult. Working with those rules to help someone to nudge,to change their behavior, to do something that they already like to do,to help them achieve a goal that they want can be easy. So to get back towhat you're saying, what's the problem and why do we have a hard time withthis is actually why we're talking about the questions for me in the firstplace is because you didn't take enough time to think about what the actualproblem is, What's the behavior that you're trying to solve? We get intothis thinking space first say we want like logically people should know thatthey want a better rate or that they want to save money or they want to getout of debt, blah blah blah. And so we approached from this thinkingperspective, but to get anyone to do anything, you need to make them feelsomething first. So you need them to have an emotion, a feeling that makesthem want to have a behavior shift and then they can think about it afterwards,which is more in this post rationalization of why I did that onthe other side. So triggering that emotional piece to get them to dosomething, but you need to know what you want them to do because there's alot that you could do. I have clients...

...asked me all the time how do we getmore members or like? Like well that depends like for what, what do you wantthem to do? I could get I know I can target a message to do whatever youwant like and and that's not in a manipulative way but to say like if wewant to promote auto loans here or credit cards or this checking accountover that checking account, I can reframe it to make something, be theclear best choice for someone to help nudge them to make that choice. But whydo you want that and why is it a good fit for them? And how do we properlyframe that is all how reprising for that that all is based on what you wantthem to do. So you need to know the goal and the behavior shift first tothen structure what you want. And then it can be much easier to get people tochange their behavior. You're talking through this and I can't help but thinkabout dr Benjamin hardy in willpower doesn't work. And one of the things hewas diving deep in there was environment like the environment isjust to massively strong and I just had an idea like if you're talking aboutcultural and organizational transformation and we're havingmeetings about cultural and organizational transformation, let'sjust say in the boardroom maybe that in and of itself is not the best place tohave these conversations and discussions because it's a knownenvironment. Would it be more valuable and beneficial to take this to acompletely new environment? I know obviously Covid is going to make this alittle bit hard right now but I see the light at the end of the tunnel therethere is hope. How does environment play? Because maybe when we're thinkingabout our thinking, we should be thinking about our thinking, not in ouroffice, not in our boardrooms, we should be Somewhere different. At leastmy thinking is at least once every 90 days to just turn over some newthoughts that are actually valuable. Right. Which, and I'm sure you and Ihave both facilitated our fair share of strategic planning sessions and there'sa reason that you have those off site often get out of the norm of where youare. But when you look at Prime Ng studies and so some have shown wherethey had people working on projects together and in some there was abriefcase visible, but nobody commented on, it wasn't like they look abriefcase guys, but like it happened to me in the room and in the other roomthey had a backpack and again, nobody noticed it. I would say they saw it orthat had any impact. But those who were in the backpack room were much morecooperative than those in the briefcase room, which were more combative andholding things themselves. So if you're meeting in the boardroom to have thesesessions, potentially you've already primed yourself to be in this verydifferent mind state of what you're thinking about. You've pre primed to bea little bit more aggressive or whereas if you were to go do something a littlebit fun or be somewhere else just to shake things up, could be priming yourbrain to look at things differently and even having it. So there was anotherstudy that was done by Mackenzie where they had people and there was a bunchof different priming things that went into this, but in one case they saiddiligently write down a list of your ideas and it was on white lined paperor the yellow legal pads or something. And then the other groups they saidyeah, they had a bunch of multicolored post it notes and colored pens thatthey were using and then we're saying, you know make as many as you can andput them around and it's all the same big meeting and people that were justat different tables that they had different stuff and those that weretold to use the colorful post it notes came up with more creative ideas thanthose who were told to use the structured note taking option. And sothose all have an impact on what comes up and you didn't fully get to this.But one of the weeks in my course I...

...talk about the IKEA effect and howpeople are more bought in on things that they had a part of creating. So Ilike my wonky table that I made from IKEA better than the one that you made,even if you're a professional, you know, IKEA table creator. And so when youlook at things like change management, if you're coming from like we're in theboardroom, the executive team comes up with what we think is going to inspirepeople to want to change and then just put down and say this is the new planand you better, like it sort of a thing, it won't go over as well as if you letpeople be part of that discovery process. Absolutely. And so so maybebeing in a post Covid environment, everyone's working in a little bit of adifferent area, it's it's having a different effect on our thinking andthat's actually one of the reasons I used to require financial brands to flyinto Houston to force them out of their environment so that it would not, itwould open up a new part of the brain or at least just their own thinkingmodel. And, and the people were like, we don't want to fly, we don't want thetravel expense, can't you come here. I'm like, no, no, it's just nothappening because it's intentional. And this has been such a fantasticconversation. Again, Molina got to two final questions for you number one, Iwant to build some anticipation together with you as we look ahead and all theopportunities that are available for a financial brand to create, to capture,to capitalize on what is the biggest opportunity that you see from the workyou're doing routed back into the brain into the mind of a consumer? Oh, Ithink it's just At the simplest form. It really is understanding what'shappening in the brain and starting to apply and test and use that. There's awhole chapter in the book that's talking about how to do testingyourself and I've got this, how to apply it. Part three is all about howto start applying behavioral economics and so getting that confidence thatthat skill set that's built to where you say, okay, let's do something andto think about it in the right way of understanding the problem and thenthinking what's the behavior we want to shift and then putting in a smallintervention and just trying some things is a really great opportunity tosee what's what's going on and how you can have an impact. And byunderstanding behavior and asking those really good questions, it just helpsyou to resonate on such a deeper level with those potential members andcustomers for you and that they can feel understood, it's empowering forstaff, there's just so much good that comes with really understanding peopleand how they behave and trying to help them to better themselves and so Ithink just understanding behavioral science. Total total total aside. Totalaside, Will we ever see, I think would be a C B a chief behavioral economistperhaps. I mean we obviously have some chief behavioral officers that existand you have a lot so in the corporate side and actually in public policy andsome governments have what they call Nudge units um because of the, there'sa book nudge from some work from Richard thaler and CASS Sunstein thatwon a Nobel prize. So either like a Nudge unit or this behavioral sciencedepartments, they are absolutely a thing in other industries and I thinkwe should absolutely have them in financial brands. No question. Andthat's what I want to end on. I always like to end with something extremelypractical, something tiny. We'll call it a nudge, we'll call it a tiny habitfrom, from B. J. Fogg atomic habit James, clear what's one small microcommitment that you could recommend? A...

...dear listener financial brand marketingcells, leadership team member with something small, just to commit totoday to make progress on just their own personal journey of growth aroundwhat we've been talking about today. Well, I always end every episode of mypodcast and all my emails sign off with be thoughtful and potentially this iswhat I said last time too, but it still holds true and so I say be thoughtfulboth in, you know, just general ways that you would think of, but also inthat thinking about thinking and questioning things. So if you feltinclined to click on and open a particular article that you went toread or you wanted to throw away something that came into your mailboxor that you were inspired to read something when you usually don't, orwhatever it is to stop and say, why did I do that? Or why do I brush my teethwith my right hand instead of my left hand or whatever it is to just askyourself those questions and think a little bit about what you're doing andtrying to understand. Is that a habit or is that something I choseconsciously to do? Which then you'll start to realize how much of it isn'tthat subconscious space? But questioning those things can reallyhelp you to then be a better questioner with your own work and projects as well.Speaking about questions, if someone is listening, they have questions. Theywant to continue this conversation to connect with you. What is the best wayfor them to reach out and say hello? Well, you can find me on all thesocials as the brainy biz B I Z. You can also pop over to my website, thebrainy business dot com. And for anyone who wants to just send an email Molinaat the Brainy business dot com, happy to chat with you or connect on linkedin.Whatever that is I'm around, connect with Molina and go pick up a copy ofher book from amazon what your customers want and can't tell you. Anddon't forget, described to the brady business podcast, She's always sharingsomething of value that I promise, we'll help you continue to grow fromgood to great Molina. Thanks again for joining me on another episode ofbanking on digital growth. Thanks for having me as always. And until nexttime be well, do good and make your bed. Thank you for listening to anotherepisode of banking on digital growth with James robert. Ley. Like what youhear, tell a friend about the podcast and leave us a review on apple podcasts,google podcasts or Spotify and subscribe while you're there to geteven more practical improvement insights visit www dot digital growthdot com to grab a preview of James roberts, best selling book banking ondigital growth or order a copy right now for you and your team from amazoninside, you'll find a strategic marketing and sales blueprint framedaround 12 key areas of focus that empower you to confidently generate 10times more loans and deposits. Until next time, be well and do good.

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