Banking on Digital Growth
Banking on Digital Growth

Episode · 1 year ago

87) #ExponentialInsights: How Brain Chemicals Affect Banking Choices


Your conscious brain is ruled by your subconscious brain, which does between 95% and 99.999% of the work. How does this affect your decision making?

In this Exponential Insights episode of Banking on Digital Growth, I interview Melina Palmer, Founder and CEO at The Brainy Business, about marketing and the human brain.

What we talked about:

- The conscious vs. the subconscious

- The most influential brain chemical in marketing

- How to get people to change their behavior & the IKEA effect

Check out these resources we mentioned during the podcast:

- Melina’s book

- Melina’s podcast

- Benjamin Hardy’s book

- Melina was my guest previously on Ep. 29

You can find this interview and many more by subscribing to Banking on Digital Growth on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, or here. 

...we know we have a conscious brain. We know we have a subconscious brain. We would like to think that the conscious brain is doing most of everything that we're doing. Unfortunately, that's just really not the case. And so the highest study I've seen puts this at 99.999 of what's happening in our brains being done by that subconscious. Mhm. You're listening to banking on digital growth. With James Robert lay a podcast that empowers financial brand marketing, sales and leadership teams to maximize their digital growth potential by generating 10 times more loans and deposits. Today's episode is part of the exponential insight series where James robert interviews the industry's top marketing sales and fintech leaders, sharing practical wisdom to exponentially elevate you and your team. Let's get into the show greetings and hello, I am James robert, ley and welcome to the 87th episode of the Banking on Digital Growth podcast. Today's episode is part of the exponential insight series and I'm excited to welcome Molina palmer to the show. Molina is the founder and the ceo of the Brainy business. Host of the Brainy Business podcast. She's also a columnist for inc dot com and she teaches applied behavioral economics and marketing, pricing, change management and more at texas A and M's human behaviour lab. But more recently and I'm really excited about this. I'm really excited for Molina because I've known Molina for a long time, Molina is the author of a brand new book, what your customer wants and can't tell you unlocking consumer decisions with science of behavioral economics. Lots to talk about today. Welcome back to the show Molina. Absolutely. Thanks for having me. It is good to welcome you back because I Thoroughly enjoyed our first conversation and that went back to episode 29, using your brain to cope with change. And a lot has changed for all of us since that time. And so besides the launch of the book Molina, what is one thing that you are most excited about right now? I feel like everything is really kind of revolving in that book space right now. But redoing, we were talking about this a little bit before getting started, just kind of shuffling some things in my business, getting prepared for that book lunch and really ramping up to be doing big, cool projects that I'm really excited about and new website and all those things and I, I am so excited for you. This has been a long time coming. You've, you've put in so much hard work to get to this point leading up with the podcast and then the book and I got to take a sneak peek at it and I was like, oh my God, this is this is something that everyone needs to read specifically in the financial services space. Because there's so much that we can do from a behavioral economics to to really encourage positive behavior, not only internally with change management, but also externally in the lives of account holders. Because because money is stressful and and in your new book, what your customer wants and can't tell you, you really have unlocked a a powerful machine on the planet even in the age of ai being the brain with something that's simple, it's approachable. I could even understand it. Uh and and and take advantage of this. So I want to ask the most important question, why do this in the first place? Because I know how painful it is to write a book, but you've done it. But let's start with why go here in the first place? I would say that I've always had it kind of in the back of my mind, I would write a book as a kind of...

...a side story, like what feels like a past life. When I when I worked at the credit union that I was at years ago, I had started doing freelance work and I did book editing for a couple years. And so I think I have a deeper understanding of books than other people and doing those like developmental edits, which I know that you get right, the restructuring of the logic of it and everything. And so it wasn't quite as intimidating for me though, once I got into it, you kind of go app. Um but I really found I think through the podcast and through now teaching at texas A and m like you said, I really have, I really just want everyone to be able to understand this amazing field of behavioral science and how it works and how you can use and apply it in a way that just not seeing anybody else doing. And a lot of the books on behavioral economics or behavioral science so far are either just this, we found this in a study isn't that cool? And we found this isn't that cool, Like, yeah, this is cool, but there's no how do I do that? How do I do something with it? And there are a couple like text books, just like hardcore textbooks, Not very many of those either, but having this spot in between of helping people in business to be able to understand what they need to understand and nothing more. And be able to have that confidence to start using this insight so they can up level the work they're already doing and not have to change careers to become an academic researcher. It's something that I really wanted to provide that was the really the goal of the book. Yeah, you're right and I agree with you because there's there's a massive difference between knowing on one side of the spectrum and growing on the other and that is the application or applying that knowledge to bring it to fruition to create value. And I was just I was just guest lecturing at a university the other day and it was for a class of marketing students. And the professor asked me like what is one thing that you could recommend to these students if they want to continue to excel in their careers? And I said study human behavior. I said people will tell you what they want, not always by their words, but really more importantly from their action and that's what I appreciate about the work that you've been doing is it is so rooted in research, but you've been able to apply it and simplify it for others to understand. And you open up the book by helping us understand two key parts of the brain. And I love the way you frame this. It's it's like trying to get a meeting with Oprah who doesn't, who doesn't want to meet Oprah. But but what are these two key parts of the brain? What role do they play and why is it important specifically for financial brand, marketing cells and leadership teams to understand how these two parts of the brain work together? Yeah. So we have in behavioral economics you would hear it talked about a system one and system to I don't like those terms because they actually don't speak well to System one. Just 40 point. I know that's the point I'll be talking about like system one does this like which one is that? I don't know. So I like to just say conscious and subconscious for how they work. So Essentially we know we have a conscious brain, we know we have a subconscious brain. We would like to think that the conscious brain is doing most of everything that we're doing. Unfortunately, that's just really not the case. And so the highest study I've seen puts this at 99.999 of what's happening in our brains being done by that subconscious piece, which is not great ratio wise. And you know, the lowest studies put it at 95%. So it's still the vast, vast majority of stuff.

And so to think about this, it's not like, you know, sometimes subconscious is on sometime conscious is on, it's really more like a gatekeeper or like I say, the receptionist, if you're trying to get a meeting with Oprah, like you have to get through the subconscious to be important enough to make it into that conscious brain because it has very limited capacity. It uses a lot more energy to do things in that conscious space and its capacity just is smaller. So that subconscious is constantly scanning the world around you to say like that's normal, I know how to do that, that's normal, normal, normal, normal. And then kind of like, oh, this is weird, you know, conscious europe and you can go do something. So in this case your conscious brain is Oprah, that's the like the meeting that you're able to get there. How much, like, you know, when we look at the brain and kind of these not necessarily systems, but different structural parts of the brain. The reptilian brain, the limbic system, the neocortex. It's that it's the reptilian, that lizard brain, the oldest part of the brain that really is scanning the environment. And I like to call it the binary brain because it's it's either I trust you or I don't trust you. It's fight or its flight. It's it's one or it's zero. How much does does that play in regards to the subconscious from an environmental scanning and awareness? Because a lot of this is like, once again marketing messages, like we're scanning and we're creating these these decisions that were not even aware of consciously at the subconscious level. Yeah. So all that stuff you're talking about, the uh that lizard brain, the senses, the limbic system, that's all really in that subconscious space and it is the senses in taking and whether we like something instinctively or not. I also kind of would say this is we like to say that like something felt wrong like in my gut, like when your gut says something to you and you can't quite articulate it, that's probably a subconscious sort of alert that I don't I'm not gonna tell you why I don't like that because your subconscious and conscious don't speak the same language so they really can't, they don't communicate very well. But when we're looking at communicating through marketing, the imagery you use can be incredibly impactful whether you have descriptive and colorful language makes a big difference. I while it's not a financial institution sort of thing, just thinking about if you were looking at buying a new couch and it says material leather, Okay, right, fine. At the end, I'm not like jazzed about that. But if it says like material, like buttery soft chocolate brown leather, you know, that's a couch, I want to sink into an asleep. Yeah, yeah. Or it keeps you cool or like that more description and using that power in metaphor or imagery that is getting at the deeper story is going to resonate better with the subconscious, even if someone can't articulate why? Because well, you just literally painted a picture in my mind that I couldn't only see, I could feel and I could even taste you said chocolate. I'm like, chocolate is somewhat like, like and you just triggered so, so many chemicals and and and maybe let's talk about this idea of chemicals and and not getting to scientific. And once again, you do a fantastic job of doing this in the book. It's full of research, but it's simplified because I think the brain and really the brain chemicals, it's another area of opportunity for financial brands to under understand, especially when it comes to developing...

...experiences whether those experiences are online or offline or, or as you've just done craft and tell stories, because it's through the experiences, it's through these stories that you fire chemicals off in the brain that many of us might not even think about when it comes to just developing strategy. What are some of these chemical, like what did you just do to me when you said chocolate, you fired something off of my brain? What are the chemicals that we must consider and what role do they play in marketing and then sells? So the top four kind of brain chemicals that we would look at in this space are the dose brain chemicals. So you have dopamine, oxytocin, serotonin and endorphins. The one that I think is most relevant for brands is dopamine, and it's because dopamine is tied with anticipation and it motivates us to achieve goals and to keep moving and having someone do something with your business regardless of what it is that you're selling your needing them to feel that motivation to take an action and go do something. And so creating anticipation is really critical in that case. But what we tend to do wrong and what are logical, conscious brain where we think the joy should be in the payoff is not where it actually is. So great study that was done that was looking at Monkeys and so they had been trained. You know that when the light goes on, if you press this lever 10 times you get a treat and then light 10 times treat, Right? So we know that you want the reward. It's something that they're wanting to get. And if we were to think about this, we can use chocolate as an example if it's like you see the sign and then you go get the you go in and you get your piece of chocolate. Like where do you think the most dopamine? Which is what our brain wants. When does that hit? And I know that you know because you read it in the book but the logical thought would be I get the payoff. The reward is when I actually put that chocolate in my mouth, I get to like it starts to melt or whatever does I get that flavor? That's the like where I think the kind of explosion the goodness is but actually what they found is the dopamine release starts when the light goes on And it's at its highest while you're doing the work where you're anticipating getting the thing hitting the lever to 10 times and it stops when they get the treat. That's when the goodness ends. So, one teaches us something about weight loss and dieting and stuff. It's all that anticipation is what your brain really likes. But the really, really crazy thing then they looked at what happens if You made it. So they only got the treat 50 of the time. So then light goes on hit 10 times. No treat. Light goes on again, hit 10 times. Get a treat and it doubled. Huh? So when you have this uncertainty and you don't know what's going to happen, you have more anticipation and your brain likes that. And so we want to give people things as soon as possible, give them the payoff. But that's not where the joy really is. There's a little bit of that build up to get there and if they're not sure if you're doing giveaways or you feel like we have to, everyone needs one or else people are going to get mad. But actually the chance of winning has a lot more of that dopamine released and the joy that comes with it. So there's a lot of benefit without having to give everyone something in that same way. So a couple of thoughts hearing you dialogue through. This is one E. D. M. Or electronic dance music. They always...

...have these massive builds and then the payoff and then the drop. But it's the it's the bill, it's the anticipation because if you listen to E. D. M. You know, there's the build coming and but it's not the drop, that's the payoff, It's the build up, it's the anticipation leading up to that. And then number two, uh he was having this conversation with my wife about date nights, and we were watching a ted talk, I mean that's kind of how nerdy we we get on this and it's the it's the science behind it. And one of the things that we were listening to the Ted talk was the role of date nights in maintaining a healthy relationship. And it's not necessarily the date that creates the value, it's what you're talking about, it's the anticipation leading up to the to that date that creates all of the in this particular case is your it's the dopamine, it's like bleeding that experience out, and I can think like we're coming up on our 15 year wedding anniversary and we've been researching, you know, where we're going to go for for a weekend escape, and I think there's a lot of dopamine that's firing off in in that search. And then now that we have found a place, it's like there's that anticipation. So it's it's interesting to hear you, you you talk through this and coming back to financial services I can think of and I've seen a lot of this from a social engineering perspective of registration or whatever it might be, but then you're also encouraging people to share this and it's creating, it's that anticipation of wanting to know who might win, whatever this activity or prize might be. Am I correct with this thinking here? Yeah. And I think there's also if we were to take it into a less contests are a clear place where we can see this, but if you look at the process of waiting to know if your loan application was approved. So, so there are some important caveats of this, right? So we don't want to stretch it out and make people wait longer than they have to, but knowing that there is some joy for the brain in that anticipation of if it's going to work out and helping to showcase that it's being worked on reminding them that progress, this is like the, you know, the pizza tracker where you see things are happening when there's something that we're not super were sort of excited about the outcome, but it makes you a little bit nervous and like what's going to be happening, how long is it going to be? And that reminder of keeping it, like we're focused on you, we've got a team working on it right now, like we'll be back to you tomorrow, like keeping them like on the edge with excitement while you're giving them updates could be a good way potentially to be incorporating some of that dopamine and anticipation in something that's traditionally a not fun experience. They're feeling anticipation in a negative way if they're waiting just stressing, but if you can make it a little bit more of a positive that could actually have a really big impact over time. Technology has transformed our world and digital has changed the way consumers shop for and buy financial services forever. Now consumers make purchase decisions long before they walk into a branch. If they walk into a branch at all, but your financial brand still wants to grow loans and deposits, we get it. Digital growth can feel confusing, frustrating and overwhelming for any financial brand marketing and sales leader, but it doesn't have to because James robert wrote the book that guides you every step of the way along your digital growth journey, visit www dot digital growth dot com to get a preview of his best selling book banking on digital growth or order a copy right now for... and your team from amazon inside you'll find a strategic marketing manifesto that was written to transform financial brands and it is packed full of practical and proven insights you can start using today to confidently generate 10 times more loans and deposits now back to the show practically applied. I see two sides of the equation here one is what happens post conversion and something as simple as woo hoo. We've got your application, here's what happens next step one, step two, step three and then communicating with them as they're going through that part of the journey. But then if you go pre application, you can also provide anticipation as to what that journey might look like for them. Step one, step two, step three and we're seeing financial brands deploying that thinking in regards to website position. So now it makes sense of why this works because it's, it's tapping into this, this in creating this dopamine affect another area in the book. And, and really an opportunity I see once more is framed around leveraging the power Of questions. And this echoes a conversation that I recently had with Whitney Low and episode 72, which is five steps to improve your customers financial wellness, where we discussed the opportunity for financial brand marketing and sales teams, is to get really good at asking good questions. Why is this important? And what are some of the challenges when it comes to just thinking about questions or putting putting it another way, as dan Sullivan notes, just simply thinking about your thinking yes, thinking about thinking that's such an important thing to do. And questions are my jam. I do a lot of training on questions storming instead of brainstorming, which we'll talk about in a minute. I love working with teams on that. It makes such a big difference. But I think one of the things that every single client and every listener, the podcast has heard me say at least once is and then eventually here everyone who gets the book too is it's really easy to find the right answer to the wrong question. And more often than not, people are asking the wrong question and it's because and the first part of the book goes into these biases of our brain where we are programmed to think we're smarter, faster, better than everyone else, including who we were five minutes ago. It's just how it's set up. And so when you look at a problem you're trying to solve to say like we need a better loyalty program, we need to be working on, you know, people want this faster experience or everybody we need to be there. Pf I write kind of these constant things that people talk about, these kind of become these known truths and when you're within the organization, it seems very obvious what the problem is. However, it's often not, it's often not the actual problem. And so if you just jump into trying to solve that problem, it's not going to actually do what you need it to do. Whereas if you take the time to investigate and see what's going on, what the actual behavioral issue is and what you're trying to adjust for the consumer or members of your team, it is going to serve you so much better. I love too Use the it's attributed to Einstein of saying, if you were given an hour and you had to solve the problem to save the world, you know, how would you spend that hour? And he says he would spend 55 minutes thinking about the problem and then five minutes solving it because and so if Einstein was going to be giving 55 minutes of his respective our to understand the problem, we really need to think about our ratios because most people just really jump into what they think the problem is and it's going to put you down the wrong path. Yeah. You're recalling a scene from Moneyball with...

...brad Pitt and there's a great scene where brad pitt playing billy Beane. He says, they're sitting around the table and they're trying to replace these players that they had lost and the scouts are trying to solve the problem from the traditional lens, from what they know And and Billy Bean's coming in here and he's providing a different perspective and he says, there are rich teams, there are poor teams, then there's 50 ft of crap and then there's us, you're not even thinking about the problem from the right context and I agree with you like so there there are four what I call four digital growth operating environments. You can be learning, you can be thinking, you can be doing or you could be reviewing but you can only be in one environment at a time and where I see so many institutions and organizations get stuck, it doesn't matter if your marketing cells leadership, it's in the doing environment. What are the opportunities to help create that space and time to break free from the doing to stop pause review, reflect to learn from that experience, to think about that and then be able to apply that thinking to the next iteration, the next round of doing otherwise. We just our our future will repeat its past. Yeah, that's so when I work with organizations on question storming, this is where So instead of so the thing that you do, we've got a problem. Like we need to increase memberships right? We need to drive checking accounts, whatever, whatever it is, and then you say so like what are the solutions to get that done? And then we could do a B C. And you're coming up with a bunch of solutions to a very specifically articulated problem, which again, a slight change in ver bage opens up a completely different problem that you're working on, so making sure you really, really, really know the scope of what you're working on. It is very important. So instead of starting with that question and coming up with a bunch of solutions which does not work well with our brain, people don't want to speak up because if you don't have the perfect solution, you're gonna look stupid or you might get saddled with a project, you don't have time for all these things. If instead you start with a statement and then you generate a lot of questions, it gives you an opportunity to look at things very differently. And so when I do this, we'll work with those known truths to say changing financial institutions is hard. Is there anybody that says that? That's not a true statement. Like in general, every financial institution would probably say that that is something that is difficult for people and they don't want to do it. And so if so if we say that's our statement, we're going to start with. And then we asked us many questions about it as we can, like hard for who? What if it was easy? Does that matter? Who cares? Like do people ever like to have changed? Be difficult? We were just talking about dopamine and anticipation, What would make it worth it? Why would people put in the time to change? When do people not care about that? All these things you can be asking and then half hour or so of working on this with teams to come up with hundreds of questions that show that that's just not necessarily accurate and that helps open up your thinking in a different way. You find some new questions that are interesting to go and research, learn a little bit more about maybe scope of project around. And then you can work on solving that much more interesting problem that can also help you to stand out against your competitors because they're not doing this. Yeah. This is a question that I had asked a financial brand recently because they were trying to develop a digital purpose statement that goes far beyond promoting just the same commoditized dollars and cents. And I was like, look, let me just back...

...up, what would happen if your financial brand just went away no longer existed, what would be lost forever? And the responses that we got back were completely different than how they were trying to approach it by what's the purpose, Why do we exist? It was just a small change in reframing their thinking to apply this. And and they started going down a path of there would be less choices and people would get screwed by the big banks and that no one would be here to take care of them. And it kept going deeper and deeper and deeper in this idea of, you know, financial empowerment, financial well being, and that that idea of financial wellness, financial well being, there is a tremendous opportunity I hear and I see for financial brands that is really rooted what we're just kind of talking about. Maybe we can go deeper with, which is change management. In fact, some of the challenges that financial brands are facing when it comes to digital growth, digital transformation, however you want to frame that there's a lot of empathy that they can share for consumers who are going through the same struggles when it comes to financial stress and financial wellness. So why is it so hard for people to transform their behaviors, their habits and really even deeper their beliefs? They're thinking what is holding them back that's keeping them stuck in a consistent pattern when they logically know what they're doing is not the best path forward, but they keep going down that path anyway. Yeah. So this is definitely just rooted in how our brains are set up and what we're talking about with the conscious and the subconscious. So your subconscious brain, which does 99 of everything that's happening in your life and that of your consumers and your peers and everybody else is built on habits and predictability and it likes the status quo and it is wanting to keep as much stuff as it can in its handling instead of having to send it to the conscious And so habits are the things that likes and we'll be seeking out and it chooses what filters and makes it to your conscious brain. So I use this in the question storming and change management. So I teach a course on change management at texas A and M. And how the brain ties in with all of this. And so essentially if you were to think about changing behavior and we say change is hard. This is another one of those known truths that I like to work with. Unquestioned storming. So changing the structured rules of the brain in the way that they exist in the habits that we have formed is very hard. And of course this is in the book too. So yes, changing what has been building for eons is difficult. Working with those rules to help someone to nudge, to change their behavior, to do something that they already like to do, to help them achieve a goal that they want can be easy. So to get back to what you're saying, what's the problem and why do we have a hard time with this is actually why we're talking about the questions for me in the first place is because you didn't take enough time to think about what the actual problem is, What's the behavior that you're trying to solve? We get into this thinking space first say we want like logically people should know that they want a better rate or that they want to save money or they want to get out of debt, blah blah blah. And so we approached from this thinking perspective, but to get anyone to do anything, you need to make them feel something first. So you need them to have an emotion, a feeling that makes them want to have a behavior shift and then they can think about it afterwards, which is more in this post rationalization of why I did that on the other side. So triggering that emotional piece to get them to do something, but you need to know what you want them to do because there's a lot that you could do. I have clients...

...asked me all the time how do we get more members or like? Like well that depends like for what, what do you want them to do? I could get I know I can target a message to do whatever you want like and and that's not in a manipulative way but to say like if we want to promote auto loans here or credit cards or this checking account over that checking account, I can reframe it to make something, be the clear best choice for someone to help nudge them to make that choice. But why do you want that and why is it a good fit for them? And how do we properly frame that is all how reprising for that that all is based on what you want them to do. So you need to know the goal and the behavior shift first to then structure what you want. And then it can be much easier to get people to change their behavior. You're talking through this and I can't help but think about dr Benjamin hardy in willpower doesn't work. And one of the things he was diving deep in there was environment like the environment is just to massively strong and I just had an idea like if you're talking about cultural and organizational transformation and we're having meetings about cultural and organizational transformation, let's just say in the boardroom maybe that in and of itself is not the best place to have these conversations and discussions because it's a known environment. Would it be more valuable and beneficial to take this to a completely new environment? I know obviously Covid is going to make this a little bit hard right now but I see the light at the end of the tunnel there there is hope. How does environment play? Because maybe when we're thinking about our thinking, we should be thinking about our thinking, not in our office, not in our boardrooms, we should be Somewhere different. At least my thinking is at least once every 90 days to just turn over some new thoughts that are actually valuable. Right. Which, and I'm sure you and I have both facilitated our fair share of strategic planning sessions and there's a reason that you have those off site often get out of the norm of where you are. But when you look at Prime Ng studies and so some have shown where they had people working on projects together and in some there was a briefcase visible, but nobody commented on, it wasn't like they look a briefcase guys, but like it happened to me in the room and in the other room they had a backpack and again, nobody noticed it. I would say they saw it or that had any impact. But those who were in the backpack room were much more cooperative than those in the briefcase room, which were more combative and holding things themselves. So if you're meeting in the boardroom to have these sessions, potentially you've already primed yourself to be in this very different mind state of what you're thinking about. You've pre primed to be a little bit more aggressive or whereas if you were to go do something a little bit fun or be somewhere else just to shake things up, could be priming your brain to look at things differently and even having it. So there was another study that was done by Mackenzie where they had people and there was a bunch of different priming things that went into this, but in one case they said diligently write down a list of your ideas and it was on white lined paper or the yellow legal pads or something. And then the other groups they said yeah, they had a bunch of multicolored post it notes and colored pens that they were using and then we're saying, you know make as many as you can and put them around and it's all the same big meeting and people that were just at different tables that they had different stuff and those that were told to use the colorful post it notes came up with more creative ideas than those who were told to use the structured note taking option. And so those all have an impact on what comes up and you didn't fully get to this. But one of the weeks in my course I... about the IKEA effect and how people are more bought in on things that they had a part of creating. So I like my wonky table that I made from IKEA better than the one that you made, even if you're a professional, you know, IKEA table creator. And so when you look at things like change management, if you're coming from like we're in the boardroom, the executive team comes up with what we think is going to inspire people to want to change and then just put down and say this is the new plan and you better, like it sort of a thing, it won't go over as well as if you let people be part of that discovery process. Absolutely. And so so maybe being in a post Covid environment, everyone's working in a little bit of a different area, it's it's having a different effect on our thinking and that's actually one of the reasons I used to require financial brands to fly into Houston to force them out of their environment so that it would not, it would open up a new part of the brain or at least just their own thinking model. And, and the people were like, we don't want to fly, we don't want the travel expense, can't you come here. I'm like, no, no, it's just not happening because it's intentional. And this has been such a fantastic conversation. Again, Molina got to two final questions for you number one, I want to build some anticipation together with you as we look ahead and all the opportunities that are available for a financial brand to create, to capture, to capitalize on what is the biggest opportunity that you see from the work you're doing routed back into the brain into the mind of a consumer? Oh, I think it's just At the simplest form. It really is understanding what's happening in the brain and starting to apply and test and use that. There's a whole chapter in the book that's talking about how to do testing yourself and I've got this, how to apply it. Part three is all about how to start applying behavioral economics and so getting that confidence that that skill set that's built to where you say, okay, let's do something and to think about it in the right way of understanding the problem and then thinking what's the behavior we want to shift and then putting in a small intervention and just trying some things is a really great opportunity to see what's what's going on and how you can have an impact. And by understanding behavior and asking those really good questions, it just helps you to resonate on such a deeper level with those potential members and customers for you and that they can feel understood, it's empowering for staff, there's just so much good that comes with really understanding people and how they behave and trying to help them to better themselves and so I think just understanding behavioral science. Total total total aside. Total aside, Will we ever see, I think would be a C B a chief behavioral economist perhaps. I mean we obviously have some chief behavioral officers that exist and you have a lot so in the corporate side and actually in public policy and some governments have what they call Nudge units um because of the, there's a book nudge from some work from Richard thaler and CASS Sunstein that won a Nobel prize. So either like a Nudge unit or this behavioral science departments, they are absolutely a thing in other industries and I think we should absolutely have them in financial brands. No question. And that's what I want to end on. I always like to end with something extremely practical, something tiny. We'll call it a nudge, we'll call it a tiny habit from, from B. J. Fogg atomic habit James, clear what's one small micro commitment that you could recommend? A...

...dear listener financial brand marketing cells, leadership team member with something small, just to commit to today to make progress on just their own personal journey of growth around what we've been talking about today. Well, I always end every episode of my podcast and all my emails sign off with be thoughtful and potentially this is what I said last time too, but it still holds true and so I say be thoughtful both in, you know, just general ways that you would think of, but also in that thinking about thinking and questioning things. So if you felt inclined to click on and open a particular article that you went to read or you wanted to throw away something that came into your mailbox or that you were inspired to read something when you usually don't, or whatever it is to stop and say, why did I do that? Or why do I brush my teeth with my right hand instead of my left hand or whatever it is to just ask yourself those questions and think a little bit about what you're doing and trying to understand. Is that a habit or is that something I chose consciously to do? Which then you'll start to realize how much of it isn't that subconscious space? But questioning those things can really help you to then be a better questioner with your own work and projects as well. Speaking about questions, if someone is listening, they have questions. They want to continue this conversation to connect with you. What is the best way for them to reach out and say hello? Well, you can find me on all the socials as the brainy biz B I Z. You can also pop over to my website, the brainy business dot com. And for anyone who wants to just send an email Molina at the Brainy business dot com, happy to chat with you or connect on linkedin. Whatever that is I'm around, connect with Molina and go pick up a copy of her book from amazon what your customers want and can't tell you. And don't forget, described to the brady business podcast, She's always sharing something of value that I promise, we'll help you continue to grow from good to great Molina. Thanks again for joining me on another episode of banking on digital growth. Thanks for having me as always. And until next time be well, do good and make your bed. Thank you for listening to another episode of banking on digital growth with James robert. Ley. Like what you hear, tell a friend about the podcast and leave us a review on apple podcasts, google podcasts or Spotify and subscribe while you're there to get even more practical improvement insights visit www dot digital growth dot com to grab a preview of James roberts, best selling book banking on digital growth or order a copy right now for you and your team from amazon inside, you'll find a strategic marketing and sales blueprint framed around 12 key areas of focus that empower you to confidently generate 10 times more loans and deposits. Until next time, be well and do good.

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