Banking on Digital Growth
Banking on Digital Growth

Episode · 1 year ago

58) #ExponentialInsights: Prioritizing the Digital Mindset w/ Ron Shevlin


We want to whip out the digital growth checklist in 2021: 

Online banking - check

Mobile banking - check

Tech tools - check 

But nothing's happening. Why? 

Because we still hold a legacy mindset.  

In this episode of Banking on Digital Growth, Ron Shevlin, director of research at Cornerstone Advisors and senior contributor at Forbes, joins me to discuss how to prioritize the digital mindset. 

Here's what Ron and I talked about: 

  • Why financial brands fall behind even when they have top technology
  • How traditional incumbent financial brands can capture the digital market
  • Ron's views on financial health scores
  • The one thing we should focus on in 2021 

You can find this interview, and many more, by subscribing to Banking on Digital Growth on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, or here.

Nobody wants a relationship with a brick. It's not about the brick and mortar, and it's not about the computer. It is about access to people you're listening to. Banking on Digital Growth with James Robert Lay, a podcast that empowers financial brand marketing, sales and leadership teams to maximize their digital growth potential by generating 10 times more loans and deposits. Today's episode is part of the exponential insight Siri's, where James Robert interviews the industry's top marketing sales, and Fintech leaders sharing practical wisdom toe exponentially elevate you and your team. Let's get into the show. Greetings in Hello, I Am James Robert Ley and welcome to the 58th episode of the Banking on Digital Growth podcast. Today's episode is part of the exponential insight, Siri's and I'm excited to welcome Ron Shevlin to the show. Ron is the director of research at Cornerstone Advisors and a senior contributor at Forbes, where he shares insights every week. And if you're not already following Ron's thinking, now is the time to do so. Welcome to the show. Run. Thanks, James. Robert, and it is great to be with you. It is it is good to be with you it is good to talk because, my gosh, what a century 2020 was as we reflect on that and really look ahead to 2021. What do you most excited and energized about right now? Whether that just be personally or professionally. Okay, well, let's do the personal first, because that's a really easy one. I got a six month old grandson, first grandson, and I gotta tell you, it is it is a trip after having three daughters. To have a boy in the family is a trip. I gotta tell everybody, You know, if I knew how great it was going to be to be a grandfather, I would've skipped the middle step. Then I would have just gone straight to Grandparent's 30 years of this parenting stuff was a, you know, a long time. And so that's an easy one. On on the personal front, professionally, which I think were a lot of the listeners probably are a lot more interested in hearing about here. You know, there's a couple of things that I'm kind of really interested in about, you know, first of all, is thanks to the pandemic, and you know what happened this year, You know, going into 2021 there is a whole new view about digital and its importance in the banks. And, you know, first of all, what are we talking about here? Digital growth. So, you know, we're trying to preaching to the choir, but, you know, feels to me like, you know, I've been preaching this move to digital for 10 or even 15 years now. And so, you know, finally, Finally, I think there's a Morva mindset toe really Make digital number one. I've never been a big fan of this sort of, you know, online First digital, First Mobile, first ai first. I don't like that, you know, fill in the blank first stuff. But, you know, there's just a lot more importance being played on digital right now, which I think is good. And, you know, I hope we can get into this a little bit. I you know, I think sort of talking about the differences between digital adoption and digital transformation is important. But, you know, while we've seen huge changes in digital adoption, I don't think that means that we've seen digital transformation. So I still think there's ah lot of running room for for that. So that's one for sure. And another area that I'm kind of really looking forward. Toa seeing a lot about is the banking slash fintech, you know, partnership, integration, collaboration, opportunities. You know, the early talk about it was oh, Frontex going to disrupt and put the banks all out of business. And, you know, I've been harping against that for years, and, you know, I think we're kind of getting to the point where both sides of the coin know that this is a lot...

...more about collaboration than it is destruction and disruption kind of stuff. So those are the two hot areas and the third one, I think we'll be tracking a lot in in 2021 actually tomb or one being the whole move to financial health. That's always been important aspect. But, you know, I think it's gonna get real political in 2021. I think we're going to see regulations that are going to force banks and credit unions to demonstrate their impact on financial health. And then that last topic that I throw in there is this slow move to embedded finance embedded banking embedded payments embedded. Lending is, you know, really starting toe to come about, you know, seeing announcements in the past month from a bunch of, you know, leaders in the space. And those are the three or four areas I think are, you know, gonna be kind of hot in that I'm gonna be tracking in 2021. Well, I look forward to talking through a couple of them with you. I think you said something that was very interesting. This mindset of digital is really becoming the priority is something that you've been speaking about for a long time. I've been coaching about for a long time, but I want to hit on that point of mindset, particularly when we look at the opportunities between incumbents, traditional financial brands, banks and Greta news. Partnering not competing with Fintech because it is really fintech, I think brings a different mindset to the space that can complement that of of the incumbent or the legacy leader. It's not. One is better than the other. Each brings their own unique ability. But I want to come back to this idea of mindset and And what is the mindset shift you're seeing? It's careful toe. Pick the right words for this because in any discussion around digital digital growth and mindset, it's easy to throw the word branch into the discussion at some point. But I think what I've been arguing for years is that it's not about the branch as a channel. It is about how to best enable interaction between the prospect, the customer or the member and the institution, whether it's in a sales or service type of, of setting or interaction or transaction. Give me a good example of this sort of shift in and the importance of this. Back in the early two thousands, American Banker had an interview with the CEO of Commerce Bank. I'm blanking out on his name, but he was really famous guy who started the Commerce Bank in the seventies, in New Jersey and in Pennsylvania. Claggett would remember his name right off the bat. That's just, you know, I'm getting to that point where I can't remember anybody's name or anything like that. But they had an interview in Commerce Bank wasn't making big investments in the online channel back in the early two thousands. American banker asked him why, and he said. And I remember this quote. At least he said, Nobody wants a relationship with a computer and okay, he had a point there. But I wish I could have, you know, countered that because my responses, nobody wants a relationship with a brick. It's not about the brick and mortar, and it's not about the computer. It is about access to people. And we're going into 2021. Look, look at how we are interacting today. We didn't pick up the phone to do this. We're way. You know, your your audience isn't looking at us, but we're looking at each other. Things is a great way to interact. In fact, I could share my screen. I can show the documents. I could show the statement. I could hold up the receipt. I could do all these things. It's 2021. The better way to interact and access people when the institution is not by me getting up driving down to the branch. It's by me getting on the computer and building, you know, getting this interaction. So the mind set that's changing is the reality. The...

...rial ization that computers don't replace the branch in terms of interaction. They they supplement the ability to have access to people and facilitate that conversation, and that the face to face the human to human interaction is absolutely important. But it doesn't have to be in a physical place with the toupee parties in the same room. Well, all I can think of it. And I hear Brett King now in the back of my head like the it's digital augments the branch experience and it's digital. And you even touch on this this idea of digital adoption versus digital transformation and the difference with that because up to this point, from what I've seen and I can quantify this whenever we do a digital growth diagnostic with the financial brand and we we were typically working with the marketing team. But we get into the leadership team and some other roles, and just to get what's the perspective of digital growth? And it's very interesting that the mind always goes to well, it's online banking. It's mobile banking, its's already. It's all of the tools, and it's like we're doing all of the tools, so check, check, check. But the mindset is still rooted. Historically speaking of the what I would call the channels and what you're saying. It's not about the channel. We should maybe be more channel agnostic and my hearing that correctly. And really, it's all about the experience and experience being well defined systems and processes that help get someone to a better place financially, regardless of how they interact, because the human experience can be delivered through the digital experience or through the world world physical experience. I think we're in violent agreement. It is about the experience, and the quality of the experience on the quality of the experience encompasses a lot of different components, and it involves convenience. How convenient is it to interact in that particular transaction? The quality of the resolution and outcome of that and the quality of the ability to to to execute on that interaction? And that's why I think it's important toe recognize that difference and distinction between digital adoption and digital transformation? Yes, a lot more people have been logging onto mobile banking as a result of the pandemic. But the back end of all of this is a lot of banks and credit unions running around and scrambling to build out the capabilities because reality is is that not all of the functionality can be executed in these digital channels. And so you're not digitally transformed until, well, you're not not digitally transform until you've done a bunch of things not only just enabled the functionality, but, you know, listen, I would argue, and I have argued that you're not digitally transformed until your core is digitally transform. Second, you're not digitally transform. I feel like like Jeff Foxworthy. You know, you know, you're you know, you might be a redneck. If you know well, you might be digitally transformed. If you've transformed your core, you might be digitally transformed if you have incorporated AI into all of your systems and processes. You know, we talked about the impact of a I, you know, over time. But how can you you how common institutions say? Oh, yes. We're fully digitally transformed when they haven't changed the court. They haven't changed the they haven't incorporated ai. They have not built out their data infrastructure to incorporate a lot of third party inputs, you know, built out that data ecosystem. You know, you might be digitally transformed if you've, you know, fully adopted the You've moved fully moved to the cloud and they haven't so I'm surprised when I, you know, see the...

...survey results that say, You know, one out of five banks feel that they fully, you know, digitally transformed. It's like, No, you haven't. Yeah, and I think this idea. There's another element because I look at this particular from the lens of digital growth and digital transformation is required for financial brand to maximize their digital growth potential. And I look at that from the D X, the digital experience, which is made up of three sub experience the lead experience, the customer or the member experience. And then, really, the untapped opportunity for a lot of financial brands is the referral experience, something that I can recall. You and I are on a stage for sea water cooler back in 2014, talking about the idea of referrals being a powerful tool for for growth and acquisition. On the flip side of the equation is the human experience, which is delivered through help and hope multiplied by empathy. And but then there's a third experience that came out of 2020 that really got me thinking it's like, OK, great We're really focused on all of this external stuff. But where why are we falling behind? Why are we having a trouble with this and and all I could think of. It's It's the employee experience. It's those who are having to deploy these digital technologies, whether it be a simple as what you and I are doing right now with recording through Zoom, I can see you, you can see me and we're at opposite ends of the country right now. But it's a very different type of communication and conversation that someone who might have been working in the branch for 10, 15, 20 years could be a bit of a challenge. So we all think we also have to think about the employee experience. What do your thoughts on that? Well, I couldn't agree Mawr that that's a very important, but you're kind of getting at from as far as I'm concerned is going back to sort of the mindset shift. You know, here's an interesting at least. I hope it's an interesting kind of perspective. You know, you've I'm sure people have seen the numbers, you know China has eight million customers and borrow to three million. And you know, it's incredibly impressive to think about that. You know, the growth that these Challenger Bank Neil Banks have had, But it's not all perfect in their world. You know they are. They've got some challenges. The Challenger banks have challenges. One of their challenges is demographics. They tend to attract the lower middle income consumer that is just typically hard to to make profitable. If you've gotta have a mix, it's great you conserve those customers. But you know, the way most banks make money off of low middle income consumers is through overdraft, and that's just not a good strategy for the long term. So that's one challenge they have, you know. Another challenge that the Challenger banks have is that they need to expand their their revenue models. You know, they come to market, say, Oh, we have no fees. We have no this No, that was great. But how are they making money? Just through interchange? It's a It's a limitation, especially when they have toe, you know, share that with Ah, bank is a service provider and number three, you know, the VCs love to talk about how the challenger banks have such a low cost of acquisition. C. A C nonsense, absolutely nonsense. Chimes spent 40 to $50 million last year on TV advertising. Borrows up their aspirations, spending money on TV advertising. You know they've got an increasing cost of customer acquisition. Now let's take take this view of so three challenges that the Challenger banks have customer demographics, that the third one was the customer acquisition and the second being the revenue. Let's take it from the perspective of a typical community based financial institution typical community bank or credit union. What are their challenges? James Robert? Well, number one demographics their customers air to old number two revenue Interest income is is getting challenged. They need to find new ways of getting, you know, non interest...

...income number three. Their cost of customer acquisition is increasing. Same challenges on both sides of the coin. But now, who's gonna win this battle? Would you rather, you know, have young consumers who low to middle income consumers and go from there? Would you rather have old consumers and try to go? I think I'd rather start with the other consumers and and build from there. Number two, you've got new revenue. You've got revenue opportunities. Well, where would you rather start? From a team that has absolutely zero experience with new product development and deployment, or a team that is basically all about new product development, deployment at number three, your cost of acquisition? I'd rather start with the Challenger banks, whose mindset and capabilities are all about digital marketing. I mean, these guys, you look at what they're doing, their search marketing capabilities are strong. Their their site design is actually optimized for digital growth. Number three they, you know, you look at what, like Amman's oh, or in particular is doing. They build online communities, you know, they're just so much further ahead. And why could be back to your point mindset? They started from a digital mindset. You know, they they're you know, we talk a lot about consumers being digital natives. But the challenger banks are digital natives from a banking perspective, and I think that gives them a big advantage over the incumbents who may be sitting there with a lot of customers and members. But looking forward, all I can think of is as you're talking through this, comparing the challengers of the NEOs to the incumbents is like an Amazon Jeff Bezos, who started in the digital space toe where Wal Mart went out and acquired jet dot com and tried to bring Jet into the old Legacy business model. So Walmart was trying to become digital, but it was bringing the digital model into the legacy model. And that's created a lot of friction internally, you know, from from an operational standpoint, even hearing you talk through this to the idea of niche off focusing around key market segments. And you mentioned some of the challenges for the challengers being demographics. But I just had on the podcast, been shopping with unify money, and he's going after more of a high income market. And he knows that their challenges with that high high income market that he's addressing even the idea of digital communities. And so there's tremendous amounts of opportunities here. Can a traditional incumbent financial brand capture some of this thinking captures even some of this capability or even the mindset, and bring it in internally? Is there? Is there an opportunity for that? Yes, because it's not all about cultural change in mindset change. It's about strategic clarity on alignment. And you know what I often tell financial institutions to do? Is I? I tell them to take what I like to call the use a approach. Now I actually don't think Use a thinks of it this way, but it's at least a good example. You know, we're used to doing customer segmentation, and we see segmentation. They often are displayed, like in terms of quadrants or, you know, nine books square, you know, you know, boxes, kinds of things. Throw that out. Segmentation is the visual model is a bull's eye. And at the center of USAA's bullseye are active, deployed military members, and they basically design everything about their business around serving the needs of the active, deployed military member. Now, reality is, is that that only makes up. I don't know what percentage of their total membership base, but it's not even a majority. But here's the reality is if you conserve, if they conserve the... deployed military member, then they're probably doing a pretty good job of serving the active, non deployed military member, which is the next ring outside of the bull's eye. And if they conserve those people pretty well, they're probably serving the non active, non deployed military members in the ring out of that, and if they conserve those people pretty well, they're probably serving the affiliated family members in the ring. Outside of that, and so reality is, is from a strategic perspective, you've gotta answer the question. Who's in our bull's eye? And can we have more than one bullseye? But reality is that you focus on the customer's remembers who are in your bull's eye and build around them. And then the likely thing that's going to happen is that even though you are focusing on a segment that is not that huge, you're going to get members or customers who are in the outer rings of that bull's eye because you're doing such a great job of serving those in the bulls eye. And here's let me make the last point before you jump in so I could see you chomping at the bit. When you look at the Challenger banks that are out there, you get the you know you see the big numbers for the chime in the borrows and so forth. But if you look at the whole space, who's out there are companies that, like Joust that focus on gig workers. That's who's in there. Bullseye Companies like 10th, which is now being renamed Boulevard Donald Hawkins out of Kansas City, focusing on African American consumers. And it's not just every African American consumer. It's those that fit a particular profile of need. That's that's who's in his bullet. Bullseye, you got Challenger Banks coming to market focusing on disabled consumers. There's one that it was just renamed. It was called the Money. I think I don't what they changed their name to their focusing on LGBT consumers. And so this niche that you talked about is spot on. But you can't just pay lip service to it. There has to be unique needs, you know, we've seen for 15 years now you know the bank for women. Pink doesn't Don't do it, my friend. It is not. It's not what you know. And in fact, many women don't have unique needs. My wife manages the finances in this household, and she says, I couldn't care less about Ah bank for women. You know, I'm managing a family, so but there are segments in the female population that do have unique needs, and you gotta find those so define who's in the Bulls eye. But that's how you make the transition. James Robert. It's about redefining the strategic focus on particular segments that you have been successful in serving. And this is why a lot of the strategic planning processes that these banks and credit unions go through drive me nuts. It's because it's all like this Greenfield things. What are we going to do in the next five years without a look back and saying, Well, what made us successful in the past 5 to 10 years? Who are we? Who are we attracting? And is that really who's in by default in our in our bull's eye? That's right. It's Who do we have? Is that who we need to continue to bring in going forward? And if not, then it becomes more of that blue sky activity of well, let's recreate or refocus and get that clarity because because confusion leads to frustration, it leads Thio people getting stuck in what I call the cave of complacency or the circle of chaos and and having that clarity and alignment throughout the entire organization, I can think of even you get you rattle off a lot of great examples aspiration for that's another. You know, very niche focused brand Rami over it, Honey Fi once again, you know, very focused around that. But I could...

...think of multiple financial brands that I've made this recommendation of quote unquote niche ing down around and the pushback is, Well, what about people who fall outside of the Bulls? I mean, this is this literally has come up in a conversation with within the last week about Financial brand who's wanting to focus down around, you know, people who drink beer, love beer and love the outdoors because there's a co affinity there within this particular community and people are like, Well, what about people who fall outside of that? I'm like You're missing the point. It's you gotta like. I love your analogy of the bull's eye, because when you can identify the bull's eye, you can focus all of those efforts energies around the bull's eye and get the halo effect of those who kind of fall on the other elements with rings outside of that. But you know, and maybe this this brings to the next point and and question I have for you, which is around the engagement crisis. You've done some research around where you found 7% of consumers are highly engaged with their primary bank, and one in five are disengaged. What's the problem here and what I think? More importantly, we know why. Why is this first Let's start with the definition, because I didn't just pull this well. I did pull the definition out of the air, but I didn't pull the numbers out of the air. This is part of the problem to the term. Engagement has been popular for about 15 years or so now, and it really first came about being popular from the advertising community. Who was using it as a mechanism for saying, You know, our consumers engaged with our advertising? Are they watching it and, you know, clicking on it And that was engagement. And I always kind of thought of engagement as Mawr oven emotional connection and in an emotional demonstration, its's. You know, just because you check your account balance 15 times a week does not mean you're engaged, turning to your bank or credit union a few times a week, a month. Whatever it might be for advice on how to manage your financial life and to talk about the issues and concerns, whether it's face to face or not face to face or even using the tools that demonstrated, You know, a greater level of engagement because of that emotional involvement or that emotional investment. So it's kind of Ah, you know, I'm looking at this notion of engagement from sort of this spectrum of, you know, transactional activity, tomb or interaction, ALS activity. And so, in a survey that I conducted of US consumers recently, I wanted to kind of measure engagement. And so I asked, You know, how many times do you use the your bank's debit card? Are you transacting on it? How often do you use their PFM tools? How often do you turn to them for help and advice? You know, I think there were four or five different measures by which I was, you know, asking about behavior as well as more so than attitude. You know, it's not a big fan attitude. I don't care if you intend to refer me or not. It doesn't actually matter unless you do refer me. So it's all about behavior. I no intention to switch is really high, But guess what nobody does. They don't switch, they just add new accounts. And so the 7% figure was based on you know, my scoring of the level of engagement and finding that, you know, there's just so many consumers out there who are not using their primary banker Credit unions Debit card do not have a credit card with their primary bank, either, but also not even using that their banks Peter P. Tools. They're using Venmo or square or somebody like that. They're using credit karma or they're using. You know, all these external tools to help them manage their financial lives and make decisions about financial life. So that's 7% are that small percent of people who are...

...actually relying on their quote primary institution to do all these things. And then you've got that 20% who are basically saying the other end of the spectrum. I mean, they're not they're not doing anything with their primary institution, in fact, may not be doing anything at all with anybody, but they're certainly not doing it with their primary with who they say their primary institution is. And so you know what we can You need to do a whole nother show. By the way, if you haven't already on does being primary matter anymore because I think this thing's really challenges the whole issue around. What does primary mean anymore? And I think for a lot of consumers, primary is really nothing more than the place they park their paycheck. You know what I've been saying for a couple of years? Now that you know, bank checking accounts have become paycheck motels, temporary places for people's money to stay before it moves on to bigger and better places. But even the primary account, So that's the first challenge. But I know where you want to go with this is like So what? Well, the soul. What is that? When you talk about growth and up sell and cross selling, you know, finding ways of deepening the relationship, you don't just, you know, if you don't walk into a bar, walk into the prettiest girl you find ago. Let's go. It doesn't work that way, and it's actually the same thing in Tried. I tried and it never worked, never works. It never works unless you know, maybe you look like George Clooney or something at my age, or, you know, I don't know the younger guys, but point is, is that you know, there has to be this level of engagement. You need opportunities to interact and demonstrate the value can provide and look the reality even before 2020 was you couldn't have enough at bats by getting people to come into the branch. You had to get the at bats through digital engagement and so 2020 on Lee. You know, put the put the lid on that. Recognizing, you know you're not going to go back. You're not gonna go back to the point where you can drive enough people to the branch on a regular enough basis tohave the at bats and the level of interaction you need to develop engagement and a relationship. Yeah, hearing you talk through this, this idea of the transaction, that's the once again. That's what I would consider the legacy mindset. The opportunity going forward is to really double down. Operationally speaking, strategically speaking is to put the transformation of people over the transaction of dollars and since which is another area that you've been focused on this idea of financial health, financial well being. And I'm very intrigued by what you've been advocating for for a couple of years now is is financial health scores. Yeah, So let's go back to the financial health problem and the financial health perspective, first of all, and that can whole comes back to mind set, right? You know, it's what's your perspective on the problem? And the traditional perspective of the financial health problem is that, well, people aren't financially literate, and so that causes them to financial problems and therefore leads to poor financial health. That's a a wrong way of thinking about it. You know, I am a mechanical illiterate. I know, Jack, you know what about my car? But I'm a pretty good driver, at least in terms of safety. And, you know, tickets, you know, don't need to be mechanically literate to be a good driver. We do not need to be financially literate to have good financial health. We need to have good financial behaviors. Once again,...

...this comes back to behaviors. I need that you need to have discipline and behaviors. So first of all, we've got to get off the stick thinking that been raising the level of financial literacy is going to have any impact on financial health. Number two. We need to have some way of understanding the scope or the depth of the problem. And look, just because you Onley make 40 or $50,000 a year does not mean your financial health is worse than somebody who makes $150,000 a year. Okay, there are plenty of people I know who are in the load of middle income income level who have the discipline in there, the lifestyle that they're okay. And I know people who make $150,000 that do not spend responsibly. And so we have to look at financial health, first of all, out of the context of income mawr in the context of behavior. But most importantly in the context of a spectrum where at one and it's about performance, actually not health. It's low performance toe high performance, you know, but when you're at below end, you tend to think about it. It's health and at the high end, its performance. But you know, again there's there is a parallel to sort of the physical world here. You know, at my age, I'm not gonna qualify for any Olympics, you know, and the next time they do it. But I'm not in bad, you know, physical health. But I'm not at the end of the other end of the spectrum, where I'm, you know, anywhere close to being an elite. You know, athletes. Elite athletes aren't worried about financial health of physical health. They're in great health. They worry about optimizing performance, but it's still a spectrum. At some point you're out of the poor financial health range, and you may not be a high performance, but you're moving in that direction. You're wanting to learn how to do even better, right? It's optimization, max and maximization. And so financial health is not this binary. You have health and you don't have health. It's a spectrum, and we need a way to, you know, understand where somebody's at on that spectrum, which is why the score becomes so important. And it's why the credit score doesn't cut it, because that doesn't measure financial health. It's simply measures one aspect of it, which is credit worthiness, and I think the reality too is that much like physical health, where you don't have a single score, you have thousands of scores. You go get your go into the lab. Take that that drop of blood and they come back with more scores than you could possibly ever imagined. And trust me, I know this now. You know, thanks to my health portal to Ciel these scores that they calculate well, we need something, at least towards that. We don't need 1000 scores, but we probably need five or six scores that measure not just our credit worthiness, but how well are we doing from a savings perspective. How well are we doing from a spending perspective? How are we doing from a protection and security perspective? There's all these different aspects of our financial lives that are not being measured and scored, and it is not about literacy. Don't even bring that up in conversation with me. I'll, although although off the deep end well, financial literacy, you know, I've been reading a lot of research recently how it could be doing a lot more and this and this is coming from financial advisors. Who's saying financial literacy is doing more harm than good because it's giving people a sense of pseudo confidence that oh, I know what I know. But coming back to the health care perspective like I could go to Google and how many of us have done...

...this? We get symptomatic. We go to Dr Googled, we Google our symptoms and we diagnose ourselves with the most god awful horrible disease. And they're like, You know what? It's probably not the case. Let me call the real doctor and then go in and get his perspective. Get his advice, get. And I think this is the key. Get his expertise to point us in the right direction of the actions and behaviors that we need to take to make ourselves feel even better. Right? And But take carry on that. That analogy. What what's like? One of the first thing the doctor does, he says, Go get a test lab, go to the lab and you know they based it on your your scores across a range of things and then figure it out and in in the financial world were like nowhere even close to to doing that. And although I really give, you know, kudos to the financial health networks in the world. And there's some other you know, players, you know, trying to create these scores. But we're just so far away from really incorporating that and institutionalizing it. But I think you know a Z I mentioned earlier. I think there's a bunch of stuff that's gonna happen in the next few years that's going to accelerate that. You know, For years we've had Siara in which the, you know the regulations have required financial institutions to prove the impact they've had in the community. Well, there's been two problems with that, or there are now two problems with that one. Is it strictly focused on a lending perspective and not anything broader than that? And then, second of all, what community is chime in with eight million customers? What community is is so far, the notion of community changes, a geographical construct is out the window, so that's going to change. And so, you know, what are the Elizabeth warrens of the world? Going to advocate for year is that you gotta prove financial institutions that you are having a positive impact on consumers, financial health wherever they live, and more than just simply from that you're investing and lending in those places, you gotta prove this. And so how are you going to be able to prove that you've had a positive impact on your customers or members? Financial health by widely accepted health score or set of scores that are accepted by the industry and so that you can measure and say, Okay, you know, we've got a million members in our credit union and on average there at 73.5 and in the past year, you know, we upped that to 76.5, So get off my back. Regulators see, we're having a positive impact on the on the community. You know what else happens after that? It becomes the marketing tool. It becomes the tool that says, Hey, consumers, look at us. We've helped and we've helped our members or customers improve their financial health score by 5 10% you know, and just like the investment world where they said, you know, past results, don't you know they'll have the same quality? You know, caveats and things like that. But financial health will become the marketing tool for financial institutions. It's about quantification and making the intangible of money and even of digital. It begins to make it tangible because I can prove the progress that I'm making is that it's not about perfection. It's about progress, that perfection, something that I say over and over again with those that I coach, particularly at the leadership level, because it's like they they're looking for this thing perfect thing. And I'm like, You've got to just you gotta you gotta crawl. You gotta walk and then you can run and then you can run the marathon and then to your point, Then you can go and join the Olympics. So as we wrap this up in what a great conversation this has been, Thank you so much. I want to end on a final thought from you as we look ahead into 2021 we've covered a lot in the...

...spectrum. But if we can distill this down the biggest opportunity advice, insight for others in the banking space to create or capture. If we could just like one thing that I have to focus on, what would that one thing be? Okay, The answer is two words. I could get it down to two words, and ironically, it's nothing we've actually talked about in the past hour. Ready small business. Small business is the it's what's hurting. Right now. They are every aspect. There's just the opportunity space in the among small businesses, not just from just a bank account or a lending perspective, but in terms of payments, invoicing, accounting, you know, up and down the line of their business. They are so hungry for help and assistance and the need for it that banks could be providing credit unions could be providing small business huge, huge opportunity for 2021 beyond. Absolutely, I can think of a podcast that I an interview that I did with Seth Siegel. Gardner, who was one of the top chefs here in Houston, closed down his restaurant passing provision. Amazing Amazing Place. And then he moved out to Marfa, Texas. I want to say it was like last year and started a little place called Part para Llevar. It's Spanish and a butcher. Even I barely passed high school Spanish, but it means to go. And when we were talking about this, the challenges that small business, particularly in the service business They're looking for a lot of help, and they're looking for a lot of hope. So I'm Yeah, we haven't talked about. We need to do that. We need to come back and have this conversation later this year and talk about what does that look like? And what some of the progress has been Because it's one that I do see as really amount of opportunity. Because that small business, it's the backbone of the community right there, the small business goes, then everything else kind of starts to crumble and fall away. So we're totally, totally aligned on that. Listen, Ron, thank you so much for this conversation. I do appreciate it. Anyone listening wants to connect with you wants to continue this conversation. What's the best way for them to reach out and say hello to you at Art Shevlin s A. T V L i N on Twitter is the best way. Or get me on LinkedIn. Both those channels them on. Don't don't bother with Facebook. Never on Facebook, Twitter and LinkedIn. Great places to be. And if I can, you know, please check out the fintech start tank on Forbes. Absolutely. Fintech snark Tank on Forbes linked in Twitter, not on Facebook or, as my wife refers to it, face waste. So as always, un until next time be well, do good and wash your hands. Thank you for listening to another episode of Banking on Digital Growth with James Robert Ley. Like what you hear. Tell a friend about the podcast and leave us a review on Apple podcasts, Google Podcast or Spotify and subscribe while you're there to get even. Mawr Practical and proven Insights, visit www dot digital growth dot com to grab a preview of James Roberts bestselling book Banking on Digital Growth or order a copy right now for you and your team from Amazon. Inside, you'll find a strategic marketing and sales blueprint framed around 12 key areas of focus that empower you to confidently generate 10 times more loans and deposits until next time, be well and do good.

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