Banking on Digital Growth
Banking on Digital Growth

Episode · 1 year ago

58) #ExponentialInsights: Prioritizing the Digital Mindset w/ Ron Shevlin


We want to whip out the digital growth checklist in 2021: 

Online banking - check

Mobile banking - check

Tech tools - check 

But nothing's happening. Why? 

Because we still hold a legacy mindset.  

In this episode of Banking on Digital Growth, Ron Shevlin, director of research at Cornerstone Advisors and senior contributor at Forbes, joins me to discuss how to prioritize the digital mindset. 

Here's what Ron and I talked about: 

  • Why financial brands fall behind even when they have top technology
  • How traditional incumbent financial brands can capture the digital market
  • Ron's views on financial health scores
  • The one thing we should focus on in 2021 

You can find this interview, and many more, by subscribing to Banking on Digital Growth on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, or here.

Nobody wants a relationship with abrick. It's not about the brick and mortar, and it's not about the computer.It is about access to people you're listening to. Banking on DigitalGrowth with James Robert Lay, a podcast that empowers financial brand marketing,sales and leadership teams to maximize their digital growth potential bygenerating 10 times more loans and deposits. Today's episode is part ofthe exponential insight Siri's, where James Robert interviews the industry'stop marketing sales, and Fintech leaders sharing practical wisdom toeexponentially elevate you and your team. Let's get into the show. Greetings inHello, I Am James Robert Ley and welcome to the 58th episode of theBanking on Digital Growth podcast. Today's episode is part of theexponential insight, Siri's and I'm excited to welcome Ron Shevlin to theshow. Ron is the director of research at Cornerstone Advisors and a seniorcontributor at Forbes, where he shares insights every week. And if you're notalready following Ron's thinking, now is the time to do so. Welcome to theshow. Run. Thanks, James. Robert, and it is great to be with you. It is it isgood to be with you it is good to talk because, my gosh, what a century 2020was as we reflect on that and really look ahead to 2021. What do you mostexcited and energized about right now? Whether that just be personally orprofessionally. Okay, well, let's do the personal first, because that's areally easy one. I got a six month old grandson, first grandson, and I gottatell you, it is it is a trip after having three daughters. To have a boyin the family is a trip. I gotta tell everybody, You know, if I knew howgreat it was going to be to be a grandfather, I would've skipped themiddle step. Then I would have just gone straight to Grandparent's 30 yearsof this parenting stuff was a, you know, a long time. And so that's an easy one.On on the personal front, professionally, which I think were alot of the listeners probably are a lot more interested in hearing about here.You know, there's a couple of things that I'm kind of really interested inabout, you know, first of all, is thanks to the pandemic, and you knowwhat happened this year, You know, going into 2021 there is a whole newview about digital and its importance in the banks. And, you know, first ofall, what are we talking about here? Digital growth. So, you know, we'retrying to preaching to the choir, but, you know, feels to me like, you know,I've been preaching this move to digital for 10 or even 15 years now.And so, you know, finally, Finally, I think there's a Morva mindset toereally Make digital number one. I've never been a big fan of this sort of,you know, online First digital, First Mobile, first ai first. I don't likethat, you know, fill in the blank first stuff. But, you know, there's just alot more importance being played on digital right now, which I think isgood. And, you know, I hope we can get into this a little bit. I you know, Ithink sort of talking about the differences between digital adoptionand digital transformation is important. But, you know, while we've seen hugechanges in digital adoption, I don't think that means that we've seendigital transformation. So I still think there's ah lot of running roomfor for that. So that's one for sure. And another area that I'm kind ofreally looking forward. Toa seeing a lot about is the banking slash fintech,you know, partnership, integration, collaboration, opportunities. You know,the early talk about it was oh, Frontex going to disrupt and put the banks allout of business. And, you know, I've been harping against that for years,and, you know, I think we're kind of getting to the point where both sidesof the coin know that this is a lot...

...more about collaboration than it isdestruction and disruption kind of stuff. So those are the two hot areasand the third one, I think we'll be tracking a lot in in 2021 actually tombor one being the whole move to financial health. That's always beenimportant aspect. But, you know, I think it's gonna get real political in2021. I think we're going to see regulations that are going to forcebanks and credit unions to demonstrate their impact on financial health. Andthen that last topic that I throw in there is this slow move to embeddedfinance embedded banking embedded payments embedded. Lending is, you know,really starting toe to come about, you know, seeing announcements in the pastmonth from a bunch of, you know, leaders in the space. And those are thethree or four areas I think are, you know, gonna be kind of hot in that I'mgonna be tracking in 2021. Well, I look forward to talking through a couple ofthem with you. I think you said something that was very interesting.This mindset of digital is really becoming the priority is something thatyou've been speaking about for a long time. I've been coaching about for along time, but I want to hit on that point of mindset, particularly when welook at the opportunities between incumbents, traditional financialbrands, banks and Greta news. Partnering not competing with Fintechbecause it is really fintech, I think brings a different mindset to the spacethat can complement that of of the incumbent or the legacy leader. It'snot. One is better than the other. Each brings their own unique ability. But Iwant to come back to this idea of mindset and And what is the mindsetshift you're seeing? It's careful toe. Pick the right words for this becausein any discussion around digital digital growth and mindset, it's easyto throw the word branch into the discussion at some point. But I thinkwhat I've been arguing for years is that it's not about the branch as achannel. It is about how to best enable interaction between the prospect, thecustomer or the member and the institution, whether it's in a sales orservice type of, of setting or interaction or transaction. Give me agood example of this sort of shift in and the importance of this. Back in theearly two thousands, American Banker had an interview with the CEO ofCommerce Bank. I'm blanking out on his name, but he was really famous guy whostarted the Commerce Bank in the seventies, in New Jersey and inPennsylvania. Claggett would remember his name right off the bat. That's just,you know, I'm getting to that point where I can't remember anybody's nameor anything like that. But they had an interview in Commerce Bank wasn'tmaking big investments in the online channel back in the early two thousands.American banker asked him why, and he said. And I remember this quote. Atleast he said, Nobody wants a relationship with a computer and okay, he had a point there. But Iwish I could have, you know, countered that because my responses, nobody wantsa relationship with a brick. It's not about the brick and mortar, and it'snot about the computer. It is about access to people. And we're going into2021. Look, look at how we are interacting today. We didn't pick upthe phone to do this. We're way. You know, your your audience isn't lookingat us, but we're looking at each other. Things is a great way to interact. Infact, I could share my screen. I can show the documents. I could show thestatement. I could hold up the receipt. I could do all these things. It's 2021.The better way to interact and access people when the institution is not byme getting up driving down to the branch. It's by me getting on thecomputer and building, you know, getting this interaction. So the mindset that's changing is the reality. The...

...rial ization that computers don'treplace the branch in terms of interaction. They they supplement theability to have access to people and facilitate that conversation, and thatthe face to face the human to human interaction is absolutely important.But it doesn't have to be in a physical place with the toupee parties in thesame room. Well, all I can think of it. And I hear Brett King now in the backof my head like the it's digital augments the branch experience and it'sdigital. And you even touch on this this idea of digital adoption versusdigital transformation and the difference with that because up to thispoint, from what I've seen and I can quantify this whenever we do a digitalgrowth diagnostic with the financial brand and we we were typically workingwith the marketing team. But we get into the leadership team and some otherroles, and just to get what's the perspective of digital growth? And it'svery interesting that the mind always goes to well, it's online banking. It'smobile banking, its's already. It's all of the tools, and it's like we're doingall of the tools, so check, check, check. But the mindset is still rooted.Historically speaking of the what I would call the channels and what you'resaying. It's not about the channel. We should maybe be more channel agnosticand my hearing that correctly. And really, it's all about the experienceand experience being well defined systems and processes that help getsomeone to a better place financially, regardless of how they interact,because the human experience can be delivered through the digitalexperience or through the world world physical experience. I think we're inviolent agreement. It is about the experience, and the quality of theexperience on the quality of the experience encompasses a lot ofdifferent components, and it involves convenience. How convenient is it tointeract in that particular transaction? The quality of the resolution andoutcome of that and the quality of the ability to to to execute on thatinteraction? And that's why I think it's important toe recognize thatdifference and distinction between digital adoption and digitaltransformation? Yes, a lot more people have been logging onto mobile bankingas a result of the pandemic. But the back end of all of this is a lot ofbanks and credit unions running around and scrambling to build out thecapabilities because reality is is that not all of the functionality can beexecuted in these digital channels. And so you're not digitally transformeduntil, well, you're not not digitally transform until you've done a bunch ofthings not only just enabled the functionality, but, you know, listen, Iwould argue, and I have argued that you're not digitally transformed untilyour core is digitally transform. Second, you're not digitally transform.I feel like like Jeff Foxworthy. You know, you know, you're you know, youmight be a redneck. If you know well, you might be digitally transformed. Ifyou've transformed your core, you might be digitally transformed if you haveincorporated AI into all of your systems and processes. You know, wetalked about the impact of a I, you know, over time. But how can you youhow common institutions say? Oh, yes. We're fully digitally transformed whenthey haven't changed the court. They haven't changed the they haven'tincorporated ai. They have not built out their data infrastructure toincorporate a lot of third party inputs, you know, built out that data ecosystem.You know, you might be digitally transformed if you've, you know, fullyadopted the You've moved fully moved to the cloud and they haven't so I'msurprised when I, you know, see the...

...survey results that say, You know, oneout of five banks feel that they fully, you know, digitally transformed. It'slike, No, you haven't. Yeah, and I think this idea. There's anotherelement because I look at this particular from the lens of digitalgrowth and digital transformation is required for financial brand tomaximize their digital growth potential. And I look at that from the D X, thedigital experience, which is made up of three sub experience the leadexperience, the customer or the member experience. And then, really, theuntapped opportunity for a lot of financial brands is the referralexperience, something that I can recall. You and I are on a stage for sea watercooler back in 2014, talking about the idea of referrals being a powerful toolfor for growth and acquisition. On the flip side of the equation is the humanexperience, which is delivered through help and hope multiplied by empathy.And but then there's a third experience that came out of 2020 that really gotme thinking it's like, OK, great We're really focused on all of this externalstuff. But where why are we falling behind? Why are we having a troublewith this and and all I could think of. It's It's the employee experience. It'sthose who are having to deploy these digital technologies, whether it be asimple as what you and I are doing right now with recording through Zoom,I can see you, you can see me and we're at opposite ends of the country rightnow. But it's a very different type of communication and conversation thatsomeone who might have been working in the branch for 10, 15, 20 years couldbe a bit of a challenge. So we all think we also have to think about theemployee experience. What do your thoughts on that? Well, I couldn'tagree Mawr that that's a very important, but you're kind of getting at from asfar as I'm concerned is going back to sort of the mindset shift. You know,here's an interesting at least. I hope it's an interesting kind of perspective.You know, you've I'm sure people have seen the numbers, you know China haseight million customers and borrow to three million. And you know, it'sincredibly impressive to think about that. You know, the growth that theseChallenger Bank Neil Banks have had, But it's not all perfect in their world.You know they are. They've got some challenges. The Challenger banks havechallenges. One of their challenges is demographics. They tend to attract thelower middle income consumer that is just typically hard to to makeprofitable. If you've gotta have a mix, it's great you conserve those customers.But you know, the way most banks make money off of low middle incomeconsumers is through overdraft, and that's just not a good strategy for thelong term. So that's one challenge they have, you know. Another challenge thatthe Challenger banks have is that they need to expand their their revenuemodels. You know, they come to market, say, Oh, we have no fees. We have nothis No, that was great. But how are they making money? Just throughinterchange? It's a It's a limitation, especially when they have toe, you know,share that with Ah, bank is a service provider and number three, you know,the VCs love to talk about how the challenger banks have such a low costof acquisition. C. A C nonsense, absolutely nonsense. Chimes spent 40 to$50 million last year on TV advertising. Borrows up their aspirations, spendingmoney on TV advertising. You know they've got an increasing cost ofcustomer acquisition. Now let's take take this view of so three challengesthat the Challenger banks have customer demographics, that the third one wasthe customer acquisition and the second being the revenue. Let's take it fromthe perspective of a typical community based financial institution typicalcommunity bank or credit union. What are their challenges? James Robert?Well, number one demographics their customers air to old number two revenueInterest income is is getting challenged. They need to find new waysof getting, you know, non interest...

...income number three. Their cost ofcustomer acquisition is increasing. Same challenges on both sides of thecoin. But now, who's gonna win this battle? Would you rather, you know,have young consumers who low to middle income consumers and go from there?Would you rather have old consumers and try to go? I think I'd rather startwith the other consumers and and build from there. Number two, you've got newrevenue. You've got revenue opportunities. Well, where would yourather start? From a team that has absolutely zero experience with newproduct development and deployment, or a team that is basically all about newproduct development, deployment at number three, your cost of acquisition?I'd rather start with the Challenger banks, whose mindset and capabilitiesare all about digital marketing. I mean, these guys, you look at what they'redoing, their search marketing capabilities are strong. Their theirsite design is actually optimized for digital growth. Number three they, youknow, you look at what, like Amman's oh, or in particular is doing. They buildonline communities, you know, they're just so much further ahead. And whycould be back to your point mindset? They started from a digital mindset.You know, they they're you know, we talk a lot about consumers beingdigital natives. But the challenger banks are digital natives from abanking perspective, and I think that gives them a big advantage over theincumbents who may be sitting there with a lot of customers and members.But looking forward, all I can think of is as you're talking through this,comparing the challengers of the NEOs to the incumbents is like an AmazonJeff Bezos, who started in the digital space toe where Wal Mart went out andacquired jet dot com and tried to bring Jet into the old Legacy business model.So Walmart was trying to become digital, but it was bringing the digital modelinto the legacy model. And that's created a lot of friction internally,you know, from from an operational standpoint, even hearing you talkthrough this to the idea of niche off focusing around key market segments.And you mentioned some of the challenges for the challengers beingdemographics. But I just had on the podcast, been shopping with unify money,and he's going after more of a high income market. And he knows that theirchallenges with that high high income market that he's addressing even theidea of digital communities. And so there's tremendous amounts ofopportunities here. Can a traditional incumbent financial brand capture someof this thinking captures even some of this capability or even the mindset,and bring it in internally? Is there? Is there an opportunity for that? Yes,because it's not all about cultural change in mindset change. It's aboutstrategic clarity on alignment. And you know what I often tell financialinstitutions to do? Is I? I tell them to take what I like to call the use aapproach. Now I actually don't think Use a thinks of it this way, but it'sat least a good example. You know, we're used to doing customersegmentation, and we see segmentation. They often are displayed, like in termsof quadrants or, you know, nine books square, you know, you know, boxes,kinds of things. Throw that out. Segmentation is the visual model is abull's eye. And at the center of USAA's bullseye are active, deployed militarymembers, and they basically design everything about their business aroundserving the needs of the active, deployed military member. Now, realityis, is that that only makes up. I don't know what percentage of their totalmembership base, but it's not even a majority. But here's the reality is ifyou conserve, if they conserve the... deployed military member, thenthey're probably doing a pretty good job of serving the active, non deployedmilitary member, which is the next ring outside of the bull's eye. And if theyconserve those people pretty well, they're probably serving the non active,non deployed military members in the ring out of that, and if they conservethose people pretty well, they're probably serving the affiliated familymembers in the ring. Outside of that, and so reality is, is from a strategicperspective, you've gotta answer the question. Who's in our bull's eye? Andcan we have more than one bullseye? But reality is that you focus on thecustomer's remembers who are in your bull's eye and build around them. Andthen the likely thing that's going to happen is that even though you arefocusing on a segment that is not that huge, you're going to get members orcustomers who are in the outer rings of that bull's eye because you're doingsuch a great job of serving those in the bulls eye. And here's let me makethe last point before you jump in so I could see you chomping at the bit. Whenyou look at the Challenger banks that are out there, you get the you know yousee the big numbers for the chime in the borrows and so forth. But if youlook at the whole space, who's out there are companies that, like Joustthat focus on gig workers. That's who's in there. Bullseye Companies like 10th,which is now being renamed Boulevard Donald Hawkins out of Kansas City,focusing on African American consumers. And it's not just every AfricanAmerican consumer. It's those that fit a particular profile of need. That'sthat's who's in his bullet. Bullseye, you got Challenger Banks coming tomarket focusing on disabled consumers. There's one that it was just renamed.It was called the Money. I think I don't what they changed their name totheir focusing on LGBT consumers. And so this niche that you talked about isspot on. But you can't just pay lip service to it. There has to be uniqueneeds, you know, we've seen for 15 years now you know the bank for women.Pink doesn't Don't do it, my friend. It is not. It's not what you know. And infact, many women don't have unique needs. My wife manages the finances inthis household, and she says, I couldn't care less about Ah bank forwomen. You know, I'm managing a family, so but there are segments in the femalepopulation that do have unique needs, and you gotta find those so definewho's in the Bulls eye. But that's how you make the transition. James Robert.It's about redefining the strategic focus on particular segments that youhave been successful in serving. And this is why a lot of the strategicplanning processes that these banks and credit unions go through drive me nuts.It's because it's all like this Greenfield things. What are we going todo in the next five years without a look back and saying, Well, what madeus successful in the past 5 to 10 years? Who are we? Who are we attracting? Andis that really who's in by default in our in our bull's eye? That's right.It's Who do we have? Is that who we need to continue to bring in goingforward? And if not, then it becomes more of that blue sky activity of well,let's recreate or refocus and get that clarity because because confusion leadsto frustration, it leads Thio people getting stuck in what I call the caveof complacency or the circle of chaos and and having that clarity andalignment throughout the entire organization, I can think of even youget you rattle off a lot of great examples aspiration for that's another.You know, very niche focused brand Rami over it, Honey Fi once again, you know,very focused around that. But I could...

...think of multiple financial brands thatI've made this recommendation of quote unquote niche ing down around and thepushback is, Well, what about people who fall outside of the Bulls? I mean,this is this literally has come up in a conversation with within the last weekabout Financial brand who's wanting to focus down around, you know, people whodrink beer, love beer and love the outdoors because there's a co affinitythere within this particular community and people are like, Well, what aboutpeople who fall outside of that? I'm like You're missing the point. It's yougotta like. I love your analogy of the bull's eye, because when you canidentify the bull's eye, you can focus all of those efforts energies aroundthe bull's eye and get the halo effect of those who kind of fall on the otherelements with rings outside of that. But you know, and maybe this thisbrings to the next point and and question I have for you, which isaround the engagement crisis. You've done some research around where youfound 7% of consumers are highly engaged with their primary bank, andone in five are disengaged. What's the problem here and what I think? Moreimportantly, we know why. Why is this first Let's start with the definition,because I didn't just pull this well. I did pull the definition out of the air,but I didn't pull the numbers out of the air. This is part of the problem tothe term. Engagement has been popular for about 15 years or so now, and itreally first came about being popular from the advertising community. Who wasusing it as a mechanism for saying, You know, our consumers engaged with ouradvertising? Are they watching it and, you know, clicking on it And that wasengagement. And I always kind of thought of engagement as Mawr ovenemotional connection and in an emotional demonstration, its's. Youknow, just because you check your account balance 15 times a week doesnot mean you're engaged, turning to your bank or credit union a few times aweek, a month. Whatever it might be for advice on how to manage your financiallife and to talk about the issues and concerns, whether it's face to face ornot face to face or even using the tools that demonstrated, You know, agreater level of engagement because of that emotional involvement or thatemotional investment. So it's kind of Ah, you know, I'm looking at thisnotion of engagement from sort of this spectrum of, you know, transactionalactivity, tomb or interaction, ALS activity. And so, in a survey that Iconducted of US consumers recently, I wanted to kind of measure engagement.And so I asked, You know, how many times do you use the your bank's debitcard? Are you transacting on it? How often do you use their PFM tools? Howoften do you turn to them for help and advice? You know, I think there werefour or five different measures by which I was, you know, asking aboutbehavior as well as more so than attitude. You know, it's not a big fanattitude. I don't care if you intend to refer me or not. It doesn't actuallymatter unless you do refer me. So it's all about behavior. I no intention toswitch is really high, But guess what nobody does. They don't switch, theyjust add new accounts. And so the 7% figure was based on you know, myscoring of the level of engagement and finding that, you know, there's just somany consumers out there who are not using their primary banker Creditunions Debit card do not have a credit card with their primary bank, either,but also not even using that their banks Peter P. Tools. They're usingVenmo or square or somebody like that. They're using credit karma or they'reusing. You know, all these external tools to help them manage theirfinancial lives and make decisions about financial life. So that's 7% arethat small percent of people who are...

...actually relying on their quote primaryinstitution to do all these things. And then you've got that 20% who arebasically saying the other end of the spectrum. I mean, they're not they'renot doing anything with their primary institution, in fact, may not be doinganything at all with anybody, but they're certainly not doing it withtheir primary with who they say their primary institution is. And so you knowwhat we can You need to do a whole nother show. By the way, if you haven'talready on does being primary matter anymore because I think this thing'sreally challenges the whole issue around. What does primary mean anymore?And I think for a lot of consumers, primary is really nothing more than theplace they park their paycheck. You know what I've been saying for a coupleof years? Now that you know, bank checking accounts have become paycheckmotels, temporary places for people's money to stay before it moves on tobigger and better places. But even the primary account, So that's the firstchallenge. But I know where you want to go with this is like So what? Well, thesoul. What is that? When you talk about growth and up sell and cross selling,you know, finding ways of deepening the relationship, you don't just, you know,if you don't walk into a bar, walk into the prettiest girl you find ago. Let'sgo. It doesn't work that way, and it's actually the same thing in Tried. Itried and it never worked, never works. It never works unless you know, maybeyou look like George Clooney or something at my age, or, you know, Idon't know the younger guys, but point is, is that you know, there has to bethis level of engagement. You need opportunities to interact anddemonstrate the value can provide and look the reality even before 2020 wasyou couldn't have enough at bats by getting people to come into the branch.You had to get the at bats through digital engagement and so 2020 on Lee.You know, put the put the lid on that. Recognizing, you know you're not goingto go back. You're not gonna go back to the point where you can drive enoughpeople to the branch on a regular enough basis tohave the at bats and thelevel of interaction you need to develop engagement and a relationship.Yeah, hearing you talk through this, this idea of the transaction, that'sthe once again. That's what I would consider the legacy mindset. Theopportunity going forward is to really double down. Operationally speaking,strategically speaking is to put the transformation of people over thetransaction of dollars and since which is another area that you've beenfocused on this idea of financial health, financial well being. And I'mvery intrigued by what you've been advocating for for a couple of yearsnow is is financial health scores. Yeah, So let's go back to the financialhealth problem and the financial health perspective, first of all, and that canwhole comes back to mind set, right? You know, it's what's your perspectiveon the problem? And the traditional perspective of the financial healthproblem is that, well, people aren't financially literate, and so thatcauses them to financial problems and therefore leads to poor financialhealth. That's a a wrong way of thinking about it. You know, I am amechanical illiterate. I know, Jack, you know what about my car? But I'm apretty good driver, at least in terms of safety. And, you know, tickets, youknow, don't need to be mechanically literate to be a good driver. We do notneed to be financially literate to have good financial health. We need to havegood financial behaviors. Once again,...

...this comes back to behaviors. I needthat you need to have discipline and behaviors. So first of all, we've gotto get off the stick thinking that been raising the level of financial literacyis going to have any impact on financial health. Number two. We needto have some way of understanding the scope or the depth of the problem. Andlook, just because you Onley make 40 or $50,000 a year does not mean yourfinancial health is worse than somebody who makes $150,000 a year. Okay, thereare plenty of people I know who are in the load of middle income income levelwho have the discipline in there, the lifestyle that they're okay. And I knowpeople who make $150,000 that do not spend responsibly. And so we have tolook at financial health, first of all, out of the context of income mawr inthe context of behavior. But most importantly in the context of aspectrum where at one and it's about performance, actually not health. It'slow performance toe high performance, you know, but when you're at below end,you tend to think about it. It's health and at the high end, its performance.But you know, again there's there is a parallel to sort of the physical worldhere. You know, at my age, I'm not gonna qualify for any Olympics, youknow, and the next time they do it. But I'm not in bad, you know, physicalhealth. But I'm not at the end of the other end of the spectrum, where I'm,you know, anywhere close to being an elite. You know, athletes. Eliteathletes aren't worried about financial health of physical health. They're ingreat health. They worry about optimizing performance, but it's stilla spectrum. At some point you're out of the poor financial health range, andyou may not be a high performance, but you're moving in that direction. You'rewanting to learn how to do even better, right? It's optimization, max andmaximization. And so financial health is not this binary. You have health andyou don't have health. It's a spectrum, and we need a way to, you know,understand where somebody's at on that spectrum, which is why the scorebecomes so important. And it's why the credit score doesn't cut it, becausethat doesn't measure financial health. It's simply measures one aspect of it,which is credit worthiness, and I think the reality too is that much likephysical health, where you don't have a single score, you have thousands ofscores. You go get your go into the lab. Take that that drop of blood and theycome back with more scores than you could possibly ever imagined. And trustme, I know this now. You know, thanks to my health portal to Ciel thesescores that they calculate well, we need something, at least towards that.We don't need 1000 scores, but we probably need five or six scores thatmeasure not just our credit worthiness, but how well are we doing from asavings perspective. How well are we doing from a spending perspective? Howare we doing from a protection and security perspective? There's all thesedifferent aspects of our financial lives that are not being measured andscored, and it is not about literacy. Don't even bring that up inconversation with me. I'll, although although off the deep end well,financial literacy, you know, I've been reading a lot of research recently howit could be doing a lot more and this and this is coming from financialadvisors. Who's saying financial literacy is doing more harm than goodbecause it's giving people a sense of pseudo confidence that oh, I know whatI know. But coming back to the health care perspective like I could go toGoogle and how many of us have done...

...this? We get symptomatic. We go to DrGoogled, we Google our symptoms and we diagnose ourselves with the most godawful horrible disease. And they're like, You know what? It's probably notthe case. Let me call the real doctor and then go in and get his perspective.Get his advice, get. And I think this is the key. Get his expertise to pointus in the right direction of the actions and behaviors that we need totake to make ourselves feel even better. Right? And But take carry on that. Thatanalogy. What what's like? One of the first thing the doctor does, he says,Go get a test lab, go to the lab and you know they based it on your yourscores across a range of things and then figure it out and in in thefinancial world were like nowhere even close to to doing that. And although Ireally give, you know, kudos to the financial health networks in the world.And there's some other you know, players, you know, trying to createthese scores. But we're just so far away from really incorporating that andinstitutionalizing it. But I think you know a Z I mentioned earlier. I thinkthere's a bunch of stuff that's gonna happen in the next few years that'sgoing to accelerate that. You know, For years we've had Siara in which the, youknow the regulations have required financial institutions to prove theimpact they've had in the community. Well, there's been two problems withthat, or there are now two problems with that one. Is it strictly focusedon a lending perspective and not anything broader than that? And then,second of all, what community is chime in with eight million customers? Whatcommunity is is so far, the notion of community changes, a geographicalconstruct is out the window, so that's going to change. And so, you know, whatare the Elizabeth warrens of the world? Going to advocate for year is that yougotta prove financial institutions that you are having a positive impact onconsumers, financial health wherever they live, and more than just simplyfrom that you're investing and lending in those places, you gotta prove this.And so how are you going to be able to prove that you've had a positive impacton your customers or members? Financial health by widely accepted health scoreor set of scores that are accepted by the industry and so that you canmeasure and say, Okay, you know, we've got a million members in our creditunion and on average there at 73.5 and in the past year, you know, we uppedthat to 76.5, So get off my back. Regulators see, we're having a positiveimpact on the on the community. You know what else happens after that? Itbecomes the marketing tool. It becomes the tool that says, Hey, consumers,look at us. We've helped and we've helped our members or customers improvetheir financial health score by 5 10% you know, and just like the investmentworld where they said, you know, past results, don't you know they'll havethe same quality? You know, caveats and things like that. But financial healthwill become the marketing tool for financial institutions. It's aboutquantification and making the intangible of money and even of digital.It begins to make it tangible because I can prove the progress that I'm makingis that it's not about perfection. It's about progress, that perfection,something that I say over and over again with those that I coach,particularly at the leadership level, because it's like they they're lookingfor this thing perfect thing. And I'm like, You've got to just you gotta yougotta crawl. You gotta walk and then you can run and then you can run themarathon and then to your point, Then you can go and join the Olympics. So aswe wrap this up in what a great conversation this has been, Thank youso much. I want to end on a final thought from you as we look ahead into2021 we've covered a lot in the...

...spectrum. But if we can distill thisdown the biggest opportunity advice, insight for others in the banking spaceto create or capture. If we could just like one thing that I have to focus on,what would that one thing be? Okay, The answer is two words. I could get itdown to two words, and ironically, it's nothing we've actually talked about inthe past hour. Ready small business. Small business is the it's what'shurting. Right now. They are every aspect. There's just the opportunityspace in the among small businesses, not just from just a bank account or alending perspective, but in terms of payments, invoicing, accounting, youknow, up and down the line of their business. They are so hungry for helpand assistance and the need for it that banks could be providing credit unionscould be providing small business huge, huge opportunity for 2021 beyond.Absolutely, I can think of a podcast that I an interview that I did withSeth Siegel. Gardner, who was one of the top chefs here in Houston, closeddown his restaurant passing provision. Amazing Amazing Place. And then hemoved out to Marfa, Texas. I want to say it was like last year and started alittle place called Part para Llevar. It's Spanish and a butcher. Even Ibarely passed high school Spanish, but it means to go. And when we weretalking about this, the challenges that small business, particularly in theservice business They're looking for a lot of help, and they're looking for alot of hope. So I'm Yeah, we haven't talked about. We need to do that. Weneed to come back and have this conversation later this year and talkabout what does that look like? And what some of the progress has beenBecause it's one that I do see as really amount of opportunity. Becausethat small business, it's the backbone of the community right there, the smallbusiness goes, then everything else kind of starts to crumble and fall away.So we're totally, totally aligned on that. Listen, Ron, thank you so muchfor this conversation. I do appreciate it. Anyone listening wants to connectwith you wants to continue this conversation. What's the best way forthem to reach out and say hello to you at Art Shevlin s A. T V L i N onTwitter is the best way. Or get me on LinkedIn. Both those channels them on.Don't don't bother with Facebook. Never on Facebook, Twitter and LinkedIn.Great places to be. And if I can, you know, please check out the fintechstart tank on Forbes. Absolutely. Fintech snark Tank on Forbes linked inTwitter, not on Facebook or, as my wife refers to it, face waste. So as always,un until next time be well, do good and wash your hands. Thank you for listening to anotherepisode of Banking on Digital Growth with James Robert Ley. Like what youhear. Tell a friend about the podcast and leave us a review on Apple podcasts,Google Podcast or Spotify and subscribe while you're there to get even. MawrPractical and proven Insights, visit www dot digital growth dot com to graba preview of James Roberts bestselling book Banking on Digital Growth or ordera copy right now for you and your team from Amazon. Inside, you'll find astrategic marketing and sales blueprint framed around 12 key areas of focusthat empower you to confidently generate 10 times more loans anddeposits until next time, be well and do good.

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