Banking on Digital Growth
Banking on Digital Growth

Episode · 2 months ago

212) #DigitalGrowthJourneys: Bringing People Along Through Purpose-Driven Change

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Digital transformation doesn’t happen overnight. It can be a long journey fraught with conflict and fear of the unknown. But strong leadership and purpose can bring people along through exponential change.

Frank Chisholm, Director of Brand and Marketing at Kindred Credit Union, joins me to talk about the digital growth that he and his team have achieved through purpose-driven values.

By openly addressing the root of change, transformation becomes a sustainable mindset for growth.

Join us as we discuss:

- Purpose-driven values in financial services (2:51)

- Managing exponential change on a personal and team level (13:46)

- Being emotionally vulnerable in an analytical industry (18:52)

Check out these resources we mentioned during the podcast:

- Frank Chisholm

- Kindred Credit Union

You can find this interview and many more by subscribing to Banking on Digital Growth on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, or here.

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for Banking on Digital Growth in your favorite podcast player.

Really what it comes down to is connecting human beings together right and being able to relate to each other and provide that service. And so that's how I've been presenting the opportunities that marketing automation presents. I've been able to boil down my brand and marketing team down to really two things. Brand integrity, you know, maintain that brand and grow that brand, but also the second one is is generate leads. You are listening to banking on digital growth with James Robert Lay, a podcast that empowers financial brand, marketing, sales and leadership teams to maximize their digital growth potential by generating ten times more loans and deposits. Today's episode is part of the Digital Growth Journey series, where James Robert Uncovers and explores some of the industry's biggest digital marketing and sales stories of success. Let's get into the show. Greetings in Hello, I am James Robert Lay and welcome to episode to twelve of the banking on digital growth podcast. Today's episode is part of the Digital Growth Journey series and I'm excited to welcome Frank Chisholm to the show. Frank is the director of brand and marketing at Kindred Credit Union and he and his team are in year two of the banking on digital growth program. Now, frank's story starts like many that we work with. He read banking on digital growth, he gave us a call and then he started into the program with his team to gain additional insights further framed around their unique situation, through training, through coaching in the Digital Growth University. And today we're gonna talk through some of the transformative progress that he, his team, his organization has made as they continue to maximize their future digital growth potential. Welcome to the show, Frank. It is so good to share time with you today. Buddy. Yeah, thanks, haven't be James Robert, I appreciate being here in participating. You've got a lot of exciting things going on right now at kindred. In fact, coming out of a really big digital growth conversation with senior leadership team to to reflect on the progress that you've been making. But before we get there and dive into your digital growth journey, what is good in your world right now, personally or professionally? It's always your pick to get started on a positive note. Yeah, I'd say the biggest win most recently. The thing that's that's best right now is the fact that after a very long period of time, we've finally migrated our public website over to a new platform, a new content management system and a long journey, but now that we're there, it's it's going to open up a world of possibilities for us. It is going to open a world of possibilities and I think it's the possibilities which is why I'm so excited for you and for kindred as a whole, because of the purpose driven work Um that you have all been committed to. Even before uh starting your digital growth journey, you were already purpose focus, which, as you know, is is the whole essence of chapter two in banking on digital growth. To get started. What, what is the purpose of of of kindred and and why does it get you up in the morning to do what you're doing? Rather than quote the UH the purpose word for word or verbatim, I think that I think really the best way to say it is we are a value centered cooperative financial institution and really it's it's an organization that, and I've always said this since since I've started there and I've been with kindred now for fifteen years. I've always said that it allows you to bring your whole your whole self to work and really bring your your values, your your personal mindset, your your professional mindset, and bring that to bear and how we serve each other internally and how we serve our members. So that's that's refreshing. And how is that different? I mean, if you think about everything that's going on in financial services now and the complexities of just the world at large, why?...

Why are you so big on purpose? Because it's one that I'm hoping more financial brands really que into. I mean there's the global alliance for banking on values. I mean there's a whole and I know you're part of that. What is that for the dear listener? Because I don't think there are very many in this vertical who who even know what the opportunities are around banking on value or banking on purpose. For us it may be very specific and in particular, but I go all the way back to when we were founded in nineteen sixty four by, you know, twenty two folks got together and put a dollar each into a into a cash box. Right, very humble beginnings, but the focus then was on two things really. I guess you'd call it the founder's vision. Number one, practicing mutual aid or or helping each other, you know in community, which you know today, you'd think, you know, fits within that frame of of purpose driven right. Uh. And then the second would have been a vision to take what these original founders, who happened to be men and nights, were learning in Sunday during church and and bring those values and those practices into their day to day life, you know, Monday to Friday life. And so they looked at different potential business models and the credit union as a cooperative really made the most sense to them and and resonated with them. And so I look at that, you know that many years ago, nineteen sixty four, and think we're we're really still living out that original vision today. And so our personality, who we are, that's really Um woven into the fabric of of who kindred is. And when you look back in nineteen sixty four to today, a lot has transformed, a lot has changed, but then they're they're still the core essence of the purpose, of the values that has remained the same. That has been a guiding light for you and the the the organization at large, thinking about the journey that you've been on, your team has been on over the last eighteen to twenty four months and all of the knowledge that you've gained through the training and through the coaching. What do you see? What do you feel has been the biggest digital marketing or seals opportunity that you've become aware of that has really helped to inspire for you to continue to move forward, to continue to take action, to continue to make progress. Yeah, the single largest pivotal uh thing, or moment, I would say, is when when we discovered marketing automation and and started down that road and and really we just started on boarding with with Hubspot for our marketing automation that kindred, and that's a ninety day journey, uh, but we literally see endless possibilities and opportunity dews with marketing automation and I've presented that to a couple of different leadership groups here at kindred and when I do, I can't help but get really excited about what what it's going to do for for kindred and for our for our members. And how are you facilitating those conversations around marketing automation or even now what I'm calling, at a larger context, experience automation, because a lot of times in this age of AI and automation, it can feel a little bit scary. It's like, am I going to be replaced and what are you doing? To maybe put the the hearts and minds of fellow team members at East saying no, this is not about replacement, this is about augmentation and enhancement, just like everything else in the digital world that we've we've learned through our participation with d G. I. Really What it comes down to is connecting human beings together right and being able to relate to each other...

...and provide that service. And so that's how I've been presenting the opportunities that marketing automation presents so um and yet also, at the same time, removing a lot of that manual work that we wouldn't really be able to accomplish without marketing automation. So being able to, you know, use whether it's transactional triggers or, Um, you know, website usage triggers or whatever that might be, to uh, to to have a script that that basically processes a workflow, whether it's a series of emails or whether it's, you know, actually prompting a staff member to get in touch, you know, make a phone call or whatever that might be, with with that prospect or with that with that member. Uh. Really what that comes down to is just connecting people and and finding out those opportunities. And I could think of other organizations that have been in the program who started three, five, seven, sometimes ten years ago, and they all began with a single automated journey. It's it's always the very first one, and then some have developed a hundred, hundred, fifty, three, hundred, five, hundred unique journeys that are all working to orchestrate an experience that is centered around people and their questions and their concerns. And when you reflect back on the progress that you've made as an individual, as a team, as an organization, what do you feel have have been the biggest, I would say, winds that you have experienced along the way? Where do you feel like you have been most successful in creating value for others? M M yeah, I think I think the single largest thing for for kindred, and I hear this increasingly, is Um individuals within the organization, whether they're, you know, leaders or managers or, you know, uh, ground level staff. They are embracing the ideas, like the concepts of digital growth and embracing the journey and and I think that's the biggest win is that we've been able to accomplish that by, you know, initially having leaders and others participate in university and then others participate in different iterations of the book club and lots of internal conversations. One of the things that we've talked about, uh, internally as leaders here, is that so much of the digital growth journey really for us is about change management and just, you know, bringing people along. So it's it's through you know, awareness understanding and then once they are aware and understand the concepts, they embrace them and they talk about them and it's something that's starting to motivate others in their work. I think it's important to really dive into a little bit because I will say historically, it wasn't always this way for us. A lot of times, if I go back, you know, five, sevent ten years even, uh, we we would work with a marketing team uh to help transform they're thinking and their operations. But what we started really realizing, and it was about five years ago, that just because marketing transforms, doesn't mean the rest of the organization is transforming with marketing. In fact, that will often create more conflict and tension where marketing is wanted to accelerate and move because they're seeing things differently than how they saw things before. How have you worked, because I think culture plays a big part of this. How have you worked to get others involved on the journey who maybe they don't come from a marketing background, maybe they are working in the physical world of brick and mortar, of branches, to really encourage them? And it's so funny because I remember in a recent book club someone had shared with me that I I didn't really want to do this. They want to do this book club. I work in the branches. This isn't about me, but then it was the awareness of this is about me and how my role plays in the greater...

...context. What have you done to help invite others into this journey together? I'll give one example. So when I when I presented to the operations leadership team on on marketing automation, I think it was maybe second or third slide in in my in my slide deck. I said, let's talk about the growth team. Let's not talk about marketing, let's not talk about sales, let's not talk about service, let's talk about the growth team, which is all of those things, and we're all growing in the same direction with the same, you know, end goal in mind, which is really to figure out how to best help our our members and serve them as best we can. And so positioning it that way and and talking about how, uh, we're all in this together, has made a huge difference. It's also helped in many ways also to Um to redefine marketing's key role. Like I've been able to boil down my brand and marketing team down to really, uh, two things. Uh, brand integrity, you know, maintain that brand and grow that brand. But also the second one is is generate leads and and that's it. And when I put those two things up, I think that resonates with a lot of people because they get okay, that's that's marketing space, but with sales and service will take those leads and then over to sales and service to nurture and to to work those leads. Right, historically, if you look at just financial services as a whole, where might there have been some confusion, possibly even conflict from your mind, maybe yourself, or maybe just others, other piers, other colleagues, around the dynamic relationship between marketing and sales and really now marketing cells and service, because they're all interconnected. Coming back to when we're talking about automation, not just marketing automation but experience automation, where might have their historically been conflict, that some of that conflict is getting resolved. Well, I think the key thing is when we start to actually connect the dots between, you know, marketing qualified lead and the sales qualified lead and all of that and and start to eliminate that attribution blindness right and and we're increasingly able to do that and really only able to do that through the digital space. And so I think in the past some of the conflict has arisen because perhaps sales and service and even leadership haven't recognized the value that marketing brings and the fact that, yeah, all of this, you know work, the brand growth and all of that, the brand awareness and the you know, the campaigns and the promotional pieces that we've done. Um, they didn't recognize the value that that was brought and that that actually was driving traffic, even though you couldn't attribute, you know, directly how that traffic was connected right, right, and I think what what you said. I want to come back to a point you mentioned that the way that you've approached digital growth and and so smartly well done on this is, you use the word, this has been an exercise and change management where human transformation is working in conjunction and alongside digital transformation, and I think it's that's where so many organizations within multiple verticals, because when we look at the BCG s and the banes and the Mackenzie's of the world, they're all reporting the same thing. Sixty five to eight percent of digital transformation projects either fail or fail to meet expectations. Because change and change management is really core to everything that you're doing. How do you handle personally, how do you handle and manage all of the exponential changes going on around you? Number One, and then how are you doing this for your team as well? Number two. The way I would describe it is I've always felt of myself as somewhat of...

...a of a change agent, and I and I mean that in the most humble way possible, because it's really been developed over time through some of my career experience where I saw incredible change through the organizations that I worked for. And and you come to a place where you you have to accept that change is the only you know, constant right and and just look for, you know, it's okay to to question and to challenge change until you understand it, but you do have to get to a place where you embrace it and figure out then, you know, what's the best path forward. What what is the positive? What are the you know, the silver lining in the clouds that you might see? UH, and not all change, you know, is perceived as negative. A lot of changes perceived as positive too. But that's what I've always uh, coached my team on, is like, let's look for how this is going to be beneficial for us, beneficial for our members, beneficial in terms of us, you know, attracting a broader audience. I even think back to, you know, a huge, biggest change management exercise we've had in my time. You're kindred, which was our rename and rebrand back in twenty huge, huge. Yes, I even sometimes think that that type of brand cultural transformation can sometimes be even far greater than quote unquote, digital transformation, because there's so much emotion that's tied up into brand and brand equity and name and all of that. So let's let's dive into that, because I think there are lessons that we can take from that experience in the past and apply them in the present moment to continue to move forward and make progress into the future because as you, as you mentioned yourself, you view yourself as a change agent, and I want to get this for dear listener here. If you think about that experience of brand transformation, what what were some of the greatest lessons that you took from that that you're able to apply now, in the present moment, to keep moving forward into the future. M Hm. For me, the single biggest um piece in that in that particular change that the rebrand and the rename, was painting a picture for people as to, you know, to potential futures for for our credit union. One one potential future where the credit union was sustainable and was around for our current members, you know, grandchildren to to benefit from and all the positive impacts that we can have in our in our communities would continue and would grow and develop. That that was the picture that we painted of a successful future. We also, at the same time, we're able to paint a picture of and and this is what will happen if we choose not to could change uh, and at a certain stage we will fail to be sustainable, and that's just something we couldn't accept. And at a at a point to our members, you know, for the most part, all came alongside of that because they understood the two the two potentials. Um, I think, at the same time to both internally and externally. One of the key learnings that we did was regular pulse checks just to see where our staff and our members were at on the change. Where they feeling positive, where they feeling kind of benign to the change, or where they feeling negative, and if they were feeling negative, then we dug into that and figured out what what the root of that was and addressed it. You know, it's interesting we're discussing, and this has kind of become a maybe a recent theme in some conversations, this idea of feelings and emotions and how that all plays in. I think it's easy for people like you and I to to have these conversations because we're coming from a marketing lens of the world. Um, we know the role that that emotion plays in behavior transformation. We read a...

...lot of the same books and have a lot of good conversations around this, like the James Clears of the world with Atomic Habits and DR P J fogg and whatnot. But when you think about change and transformation, regardless of if it's cultural or brand or digital, why do you feel sometimes maybe leaders who who are very smart, analytical, left brain driven leaders, sometimes we fall short on the emotional impact that change brings within an organization. I'm even, you know, when when writing banking on change. Now, some research I found, but what out of every two leaders does not think about the emotional impact that organizational change will have on their team members? And I think that's probably more indicative within financial services. Why do you think that is? It's very interesting you ask at this current point in time and then and that you mentioned, you know, books that you've been reading, because I'm about, I don't know, a third of the way through burn a brown stair to lead, and so much of it is talking about the fact that a lot of it comes down to, you know, vulnerability. Right, I think in many cases, and and really in and she does actually cite Um, you know, banking, financial institutions like insurance companies and that that tend to be highly regulated, highly structured, have an overabundance of, you know, analytical folks in leadership Um that that tend not to or tend to look at emotion as, uh, something that you know, you you leave at the door when you when you walk through into the office or, you know, these days, into your Home Office, right. Uh. And and rather she says, no, that's that's actually the opposite of what you need to be doing. You need to learn to be to be vulnerable. Uh. And the one uh expression that she she used in the last chapter I just finished, which I thought was so powerful, was clear, is kind and unclear is unkind digital growth is a journey from good to great, but sometimes this journey can feel confusing, frustrating and overwhelming. The good news is you don't have to take this journey alone, because now you can join a community of growth minded marketing and sales leaders from financial brands and fin techs who are all learning, collaborating and growing together. VISIT DIGITAL GROWTH DOT com slash insider to learn more about how you can join the digital growth insider community to maximize your future digital growth potential. Now back to the show. You have to be clear. It set clear expectations and and just because you are vulnerable and you're bringing emotions to bear to these professional situations isn't at all sign of weakness. In fact, it's the exact opposite. It can be an incredible strength. Absolutely and you know it's it's interesting to to hear you note Burnet's work. I've I've quoted her a few times writing banking on change, because there is that level of, I would say, vulnerability that we all need to bring to bear if we are going to make transformation a reality. And I'M gonna get vulnerable here with with you and just the rest of the the audience and the dear listener. Therapy. Man. I gotta tell you the hours that I have spent in therapy, probably going back ten years ago, when we made a massive transformation within our own organization because my marriage was on the line. I knew I needed to make some changes. I didn't know what I needed to do. I called in an objective outsider who provided me with clarity. He was very, I would say he was ruthlessly kind. He was he spoke. He spoke the hard truth that needed to be shared at...

...the time. But he did so with love and he did so with kindness and one of the things he said he was like you got to get yourself into some council, you gotta get yourself into some therapy to work through some of the challenges that I was experienced at the time, and I don't think that for me, if I look back over the last ten years, I don't think that I would have be where I'm at. How had I not taken that path? How had I not taken that journey? And it was a little bit scary and intimidating at the time. Um, but I'm speaking more and more on this now because I think like this is what can help break it could be the breakthrough for so many leaders, for so many organizations, and if we come back, particularly with the work that we're doing within financial services, banks and credit is particularly, money is so emotional. Um, it is a motive subject that it's almost there's a paradox there that we're so analytical internally yet money externally is so emotional that if we can at least facilitate these dialogues and discussions more and more, I think this is how we continue to transform quote unquote, banking for good. What's your take on that? I think increasingly removing any any remaining stigma there is around, you know, getting counseling, around mental health, around all of that, uh, really is can only serve to improve us as individuals, how we interact with others and with our teams and with the broader organization. Right and and getting to that place where, yeah, that's that's accepted and that's acceptable, and and and uh, I think that could make a world difference. First and we're starting to see more of that happening externally. Um, Dr Joyce Miterer made her she's been on the podcast. She's written a fantastic book called the financial mindset fix. She's just launched an online course on the subject as well, and I've got a couple of other guests who are lined up now who are really leaning into more of the psychology and the behavioral economics of financial transformation, because I see so much of a pattern and a correlation between digital transformation on one side, internally happening within organizations, and then financial transformation happening externally on the other side. I'm gonna switch things up just a little bit. Um. You know, if you look back on the progress that you've made up to this point on your own digital growth journey. Knowing what you know now, what might what might you do differently if you could do it again? Yeah, I think the one thing that I would do differently, and it's something that we're still trying to do, still, even still, but just just at take a more concerted effort to to push pause on a lot of things and to to stop like doing digital right and actually start, you know, living it out. I think that's that's been a key challenge and to perhaps focus even more on how does that will look and work for our broader organization, because, you know, marketing has a lot of demands on its time. Uh. Yet we know that this transition is critical for us for the future of what we do. How do we get to a place where the organization is much more comfortable with saying, okay, we're not actually going to be available for a period of time, where we're actually going to say no and and being, you know, being good at saying no and and saying no in a in a respectful way, or even, you know, we talk about there's yes, no or, you know later, right, and and setting appropriate expectations for when we can ever, and and being...

...able to use that to focus on the more the more critical tasks at hand. I think that's that's something that I believe, if I could do it all over again, is that we'd make that more concerted effort to do that at the inset. That's a great point about saying no or not yet, and there's a lot of ancient wisdom that's wrapped up around let your yes mean yes and you're no mean no. Anything more than that is evil and I think that right there, back to the point of burn a brown, that takes a lot of courage to say no or to say not yet, but I think it's it's through getting the alignment, not just within marketing but within other areas of the organization, to have at least an understanding and a sense of awareness, because a lot of times you know when when change happens. And back to your point, you've experienced this with with the brand change and then now with with with digital growth. People fear Um, they fear the unknown, they fear change, they fear failure. But I'm curious what role, when thinking about yes, no, not yet, what role do you feel training has played to help others? Number one overcome their fears of the unknown by creating awareness into the opportunities that they just simply they can't see. And it's not their fault. It's just people. We don't know what we don't know. M Hm. Really it has to come down to education and awareness, right, and in talking these things through, because you you know you're not going to dispel fears until you start to have some of that conversation right and really get to understand where. Where is that fear coming from? Um, and and so often, right, it's it's it's a personal fear too, right, like the individual hears about this change Gin, they wonder, okay, how's it going to impact me? Right, and what does this mean for for me and in my role here? Uh, and I think that's the first thing to to address. I mean the one thing when I first started reading banking on digital growth, going back a couple of summers now. Um, it was I think maybe a chapter or two in, when you address the fact that you know, folks in the branch network, folks that are out in in the in our physical sort of spaces, could be very fearful about this notion of digital transformation. Meanwhile, uh, good news for them, and this is what I tried to get out of the gate as soon as I could with with the folks in our branches here at kindred is this isn't eliminating those roles. In fact it's actually directing more people to connect with them. And I think as soon as you put that out there and then it's not about, you know, reducing branches, reducing headcount, whatever that might be, it gets that some of that almost primal fear about, yeah, how is this going to impact me, my family, my livelihood? Yeah, and I think you're onto something too that I want to highlight for the dear listener to q in on, is people will fill the blanks in with their own story, with their own narrative. Another great book that I know, that that you've read, that I've read, Um story brand by Donald Miller. You know, having at least a strong foundation and understanding as a leader, and when I say this I'm not talking about just marketing, I'm not even talking about cells, I'm talking about throughout the entire organization. Having a strong understanding of narrative structure, how story and narrative works, is really paramount too to transformation, because story we will tell ourselves and we will make up our own story if there's not the clarity that is being provided, if clarity leads to kindness, we're gonna make up our own story, we're gonna make up our own narrative, and I think you know...

...very practically speaking, if we go back to the brand transformation that you were mentioning before, you painted a picture, and I'm wanting the dear listener to q q in on this. You painted a picture, you provided it narrative into two possible futures, and that brought the future into the present moment and made it real. It was the picture painting that you were doing, and there's a lot of narrative and arc types that we can use as leaders to help communicate what the future might look like if we take path a or if we take path be. You know, there's the Old Robert Frost poem, two roads diversion of yellow wood, and I took the one uh less traveled, and that has made all the difference. But from my view of the world and the way that I operate Um is, and a lot of this goes back to ninth grade and Miss Bungo's English class us there was there was there was a poster on the wall and there was one path this way and there was one path the other way, but in the middle was was the woods, and I always would stare at that poster and I would what's down the middle? I want to go there. I want to go off the Path and blaze a new trail to see what there is to see. And I understand that within financial services there's there's not a lot of that type of thinking and that's okay. But back to your point, we need those change agents internally to at least blaze some trails to help see what there is to see and then relay that message back to the rest of the group, kind of like Oregon trail Um if we're thinking back to the nineteen eighties. So that you know we're we're always providing that clarity, we're always providing that awareness and practically speaking, that comes through training, that comes through education. I want to get real practically here as we wrap up. freaking it's but a lot of a lot of fun reflecting together on the journey, going down a couple of different rabbit holes and picking up some stones to see what's underneath neath each one. And unfortunately we didn't find any bugs. Um. What what is a practical action, a recommendation that you would make for the dear listener to continue to move forward on their own digital growth journey? Because all growth, all transformation, begins with a small, simple step forward. What would be that small, simple step that you would recommend the dear listener consider to take next on their own journey? M Hm, and it's interesting to use the word step. I mean that has been a critical learning both for myself and and for my team. Is Quite often on our digital growth journey and this notion of transformation, Um, it can seem overwhelming. Do you actually take it in bite sized pieces and make incremental change and development on a daily basis? If you can, then yeah, it's it's not that insurmountable task that it it kind of presents itself to be. I think the other thing, if I had to pick a second, would be trying as best as you can to to make time for reflective thinking, right to to think about, you know, what you've done and how it's, how it's worked or how it's not worked, what you could do better. It's almost that you know, retrospective kind of thought and and and approach. That is popularized in like agile thinking, right where you you actually take the time to stop and think and pause and reflect. And if you think about agile which is, I know, another area that you've spent a lot of time reading and studying around the idea of reflective thinking, it's not a new idea. It's something that, you know, was popularized by the stoics, you know, two thousand years ago, when either they would do, you know, we're talking...

...like syneca and Marcus Aurelius and epic titus, when they were would do either their their morning reflection or they would do their evening review, and there's a lot of writing from all of them on the on the power and the benefit of creating that space and time to pause and to reflect and literally do some writing around it, because when you're taking thought out of the mind onto paper, you you truly are bringing thought into the physical world, but you're also seeing things a little bit differently than you saw them before. On the note of reflection, and I would say it's also, you know, a little proactive thinking here too. As we look ahead towards the future, what what are you feeling the most hopeful and excited about? For yourself and for your team and for kindred as a whole, because I also think, you know, in addition to retrospection, maintaining a positive mindset is critical as well, Um, and it is about focusing on the good. It is about, you know, maintaining a state of gratitude and and love, even, you know, love, if you can quote St Thomas Quinas on this, is willing the good of another person. What are you feeling most hopeful and excited about when you look out towards the future, for yourself, for your team and the organization? Yeah, I think it came out really clearly this morning when I was presenting to our our senior leadership team, just the fact that we are continuing to develop and grow and not having that sense of complacency or being, you know, self satisfied with with where we're at. Uh. And I mean it's it's a it's a foundational part of business that, you know, if if you don't grow, you die, right, and so, but but for me knowing for for so long here in in the Brandon Marketing Team, you know, we we did things a very specific way, right, and it was all, you know, traditional, met you and we just accepted that that was going to be our future and and so we continued to do good things with that. Yet it didn't really lead to transformational development, whereas I feel like the journey that we've been on over the last couple of years in terms of digital growth actually takes us to like every day we're learning something new and different right and and that I think is inspiring for people. You're continuously climbing. That's what I call the apex of awareness on mountain mutatio. Mutatio was Latin for transformation, and so you're continuously climbing up to the apex of awareness to to see where you've been, look down the mountain at where you're at today, and then continuously look ahead towards the future with with hope Um and I think that's what it's all about, particularly when we're working within financial services, where money is stressful and it is confusing people. A lot of times they just need some help, they need some hope, and hope more often than not has to come before help. This has been a great conversation, frank and for the dear listener, if they want to continue the conversation with you, that we've started, the dialogue, the discussion. What is the best way for them to reach out and say hello to you? Yeah, I would love to have them connect with me through through Linkedin. I'm readily available through that platform and using it more and more increasingly these days. Connect with frank, learn from Frank. Frank, you've got a lot of good knowledge, a lot of good wisdom, a lot of good insight to share with others. So please do connect with frank on Linkedin. Thank you so much, frank, for joining me on another episode of banking on digital growth. This has been a lot of fun to reflect and look back together with you and also do a little bit of future thinking as well. Yeah, thank you for the opportunity to appreciate it. Until next time and, as always, be well, do good, make your bed. Thank you. Are Listening to another episode of banking on digital growth...

...with James Robert Lay. To get even more practical and proven insights, along with coaching and guidance, visit digital growth dot com slash insider to join a community of growth minded marketing and sales leaders from financial brands and fin techs. Until next time, be well and do good.

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