Banking on Digital Growth
Banking on Digital Growth

Episode · 6 months ago

193) #ExponentialInsights - When Expecting an Experience Falls Flat


50% of consumers have shared that the pandemic made them reconsider their life’s purpose. Let that sink in.

As a society, we value purpose-driven ideas - and brands - more than any other time in recent memory.

In this episode, I chatted with Jay Baer, founder of Convince & Convert. As a leading customer service expert and 6-time author, Jay talks about the evolution of companies taking a stand on issues over the last few decades.

We also discuss expectations in customer service and how businesses can improve upon those experiences, the impact of negative reviews on customer retention, and why leveraging your personal brand for professional networking is a good thing.

Join us as we dive into the pool of ratings, referrals, and reviews.

Check out these resources we mentioned during the podcast:


You can find this interview and many more by subscribing to Banking on Digital Growth on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, or here.

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for Banking on Digital Growth in your favorite podcast player.

The reality is, and the DAD on this is seventy five percent, three and four customers will have an experience with one business and hold all other businesses to that standard, regardless of industry. You're listening to banking on digital growth with James Robert Laigh, a podcast that empowers financial brand, marketing, sales and leadership teams to maximize their digital growth potential by generating ten times more loans and deposits. Today's episode is part of the exponential insight series, where James Robert Lay interviews the industry's top marketing, sales and FINTECH leaders, sharing practical wisdom to exponentially elevate you and your team. Let's get into the show. Greetings in Hello, I am James Robert Leigh and welcome to the one hundred and ninety third episode of the banking on digital growth podcast. Today's episode is part of the exponential insight series and I'm excited to welcome Jay bear to the show. Jay is a marketing and customer experience expert, author of six best selling business books, some that will touch on today, and a seventh generation entrepreneur as the founder of convinced and convert consulting, a digital marketing and customer experience advisory firm that helps the world's most iconic brands gain and keep more customers, including the United Nations, three, m oracle, Cisco, Nike, Hilton, US Bank fidelity, just to name a few. Welcome to the show, Ja. It is so good to share time with you today. I'm fired up to be here. Thanks for asking me on your spectacular program let's do it. Well, let's do it before we get into talking some of the greatest opportunities that you see for financial brands to maximize their future growth potential through how much of frame this today is purpose driven experiences? I always like to start off on a positive note. What is good in your world? What is going well right now, personally or professionally? There's always your pick to get started well as that we talked about off are. I'm moving in thirty six hours from the time we record this, and we did a bunch of a modeling and my wife and I chose this sort of run that process ourselves instead of using a general contractor, which was an interesting decision of one that our marriage may or may not survived, but it's actually been pretty good. We've had, you know, I don't know by time to smoke all Claire's fifteen different subcontractors and despite all the the craziness in the world and labor and everything else, it's all gonna work out. I mean not easy and some people are late and some people early and some things are more expensive than you thought, but it's all going to work out and it actually gives me some real newfound, or maybe reconstituted, faith in small businesses. It's actually gone pretty well. You know that idea of faith and small businesses. I know that's what a lot of financial brands are thinking about right now coming...

...through the pandemic, particularly community driven financial brands. As sins. Your conducted a study recently that found, you know, when it comes to just rethinking the Existencei with question why we are here. Fifty percent of consumers share that the pandemic made me totally revised my personal purpose. What is important to me in life, and you mentioned this in one of your recent newsletters, essential calls this group the reimagined customers and, more importantly for the dear listener, I think it's important to note that, as since you're found, forty four percent of reimagined customers would change banks if the current bank stopped taking sufficient visible actions for positive social impacts. First off, why is it important that we stand up and take note of this thinking coming out of a censure here? I just find it extraordinary. Maybe your listeners forget because they're in the business, but I can tell you as a customer, changing banks no fun at all. Right, it's just it's a huge hassle. And so for you know, four out of ten customers to say, you know what, I would change banks if I didn't feel like my bank shared my societal values. Yes, wow, it look I am, and I am now a old person. Right, I've been doing this for thirty years and I come from an era where the one thing a financial services company didn't want to do is take a stand, because you would cost yourself potential customers. Right, why would you trunk a your potential addressable audience or your potential customer base by taking a stand on anything? The playbook has always been, well, let's let's sponsor the Little League and sponsor the Fire Department and sponsor everything and will be the one brand in town than everybody likes because we got all the money. And now you know, you think about brands like Patagonia and Nike and so many others that have taken a stand on different issues for years and years, or my pillow, what have you. You've had a lot of brands who have taken stands on issues, but to see that also impact financial services I find remarkable and something that we're not talking about enough. In order to grow a bigger audience, you have to now target a narrower audience, and I think that is truly unprecedented, at least an American business, isn't it? There's a bit of irony to this because it's almost like, and we've talked a lot about this on the show, but it's good to get your perspective. It's the old adage of the riches or in the niches, and you know, you mentioned eastern bank as an example of this in banking on digital growth. I wrote about aspiration. Up in your neck of the woods in Indiana, Sintier Bank is doing some purpose driven work. They've just literally have defined a purpose statement that is going to become their north star to guide them forward. Tropical financial out of Florida is doing this with get beyond money, and I'm curious. You mentioned the not wanting to take a stand. But you say that going broad is flawed. In Two thousand and twenty two,... of the opportunities to overcome some of the limitations that have held financial brands back around planting the flag, taking a stand, focusing in on a smaller audience or community, but creating far more value, creating form or impact. Well, it's like any other kind of brand. If you have a brand attribute that's disproportionately important or attractive to a specific segment of the overall customer base, then that segment is much more likely to become your customer, to change banks, to move their financial services business. Now it's hard to model that and this is the challenge, I think, for a lot of financial services companies. I think it makes sense intuitively. The world has changed. It is more polarized and Balkanized in tribal and we know all that, all the way back to stuff cooden's book, tribes. Yep, it's all true. But to say as an organization we're going to do this, it's hard to model it on a desktop exercise. Yeah, you can focus group it and you can do a customer advisory board. It's mother things. Every kind of nods and smiles in the conference room, but to actually sit everybody down and say here's our value statement and we're going to bake this into all dynamics of this business and we're pretty sure it's going to work. You know who doesn't like that? Boards of directors services companies, because you know, to say we're pretty sure it's going to work is a scary read sentence, and that's why it's difficult. Sometimes, unless the brand itself really and truly eat, sleeps, breeze whatever, this perspective is right, if it's in the DNA of the organization, it's a lot easier to say this is what we're doing and we'll let the chips fall where they may. If you're doing it because, like well, we need to have a hook, we need a stick, we need an angle and we don't necessarily believe it, but we got to believe in something. So what would be a good thing to believe in? That's a little trickier. Yes, and in this idea of purpose does help to inform decisions. This is what we're going to do, this is not what we're going to do. Fidelity Bank is doing this right now. They actually have something called life design banking. And this is all framed around care, clarity and confidence, and I think these words are important to queue in on because they provide a sense of hope. We know financial services inherently it's a very complex subject matter, but they've even taken this idea of care and if baked this into a process, they've baked this into an experience where care stands for connect, analyze, recommend execute, and so now it's like you've got a process in a methodology that's being informed by the purpose. That's making me feel more confident that this is not just something kind of you just coming up with in its marketing speak. This is really something deeper. We're opportunity to connect a purpose even deeper into experience, kind of like Fidelity Bank... done here in this example. What you're thinking? I think the first way to identify your purpose is to just make your bank easier to deal with. Yeah, right, I mean, you know, reduction of friction is such a huge part of the overall customer experience equation. Now, one of the things I've discovered in the last, you know, couple of years is when everything is hard in life, you don't know whether you should wear a mask or if you're going to get sick or if your kids are going to go to school or not. When everything is hard, nobody wants any extra hassles in their life period, in any context. And the challenge that a lot of financial services companies have is that, frankly, they're not very easy to do business with. MM. Now they think they are, but really they're not. And and it's not that long ago, and you know this probably better than anybody, it wasn't that long ago that customers would literally say, you know what, that's a pretty good experience for a bank. MMM. Nobody says that anymore. You no longer get a pass based on the fact that you're in financial services. You don't get graded on a curve anymore. The reality is, and the DAD on this is seventy five percent, three and four customers will have an experience with one business and hold all other businesses to that standard, regardless of industry. Yeah, so your customer experience competition is not to a bank across town. It's Amazon. Yep, it's Uber. It's the greatest customer experience companies in the world and that, to me, is the gap. Our banks better today at customer experience and they were three years ago. Very much so in many cases, but are they good enough? No, yeah, and I think that's a key takeaway, because the experiences and, more importantly, the expectations that come from experiences of others, that becomes our new baseline. It's basic change psychology. Once you see something new, you cannot go back to seeing things how they were before. Once you experience something new, you can't go back and experience something different, unless that that wasn't all that great, because it's a really comes down to experience, but, more importantly, expectation setting. Like you said, when things are tough, when things are confusing, with things are complex, we don't want to see we don't want to feel surprised, which is a story that's you share that I found quite comical was it was a mey Joe Jacobs Thirteen Birthday party that you attended and it was a little how much homework you do for this show is so it is hilarious and refreshing. Thank you. Most hosts don't and I appreciate the effort. Well, no, absolutely, because, I mean this is what makes for a really good conversation, because now we can get deep into your story here, because when I read this about Amy Joe Jacobs Thirteen Birthday Party, I'm like wow, wow, so tell me tell the adience what happened, because it was definitely a surprise...

...and a lesson of expectations setting, maybe what not to do. Yeah, it was surprised, not necessarily delight and let me just frame this up by saying I could not agree more that expectations are the molecular level of customer experience. In fact, customer experience doesn't actually exist, like there is no such thing as an inherently good or bad experience. It is only driven by expectations. Customer experience is the difference between what customers think will happen and what actually happens. And that's it. That there is no difference. So like if you thought your sweater was going to come in three days, Yep, and it came into your pumped. If it comes in five, you're bumped. Same sweater. It's just how it was versus your expectations. And it's important to note like this idea of expectations setting, particularly through the Lens of Financial Services, at the most important point of the entire journey, which is the moment of truth, it is the application. I apply now. What if you could just at least give set the expectation of what those next best steps are? You're going to make me feel better. You're gonna give me feel even better if you know over deliver on that make it even faster, because I expectations are set in the eye of the beholder, the receiver. I've learned this the hard way through marriage. You know, when expectations are fulfilled, everything's great. When expectations are under fulfilled or they are not met, well, that's where the conflict comes from, and it was a conflict that you experience with Amy Joe's Jacobs Thirteen Birthday party, because you had an expectation going to the party. Things just didn't go as you thought they would. If I feel like when you're thirteen you've got a pretty good sense of how birthday parties go. Now, I will say I grew up in Lake Havas city, Arizona, which is on the Arizona California border, small town in the desert. It's, you know, it's out there a bit right. This is not a a well developed urban environment, especially in those days. I also remember it clearly because Amy Joe's party was the first time we ever had like a boy girl birthday? Yes, it was like, Oh, we're inviting both genders to this. That's progressive, right. I mean, you know, you're in middle school, it's a little awkward, you know. And so we go to her party and she's lived kind of on the outskirts of town and you know, it's standard thing and there's, you know, hats and cake and stuff, and we're they're not long, I don't know, twenty minutes or something, and all of a sudden masked gunmen burst into the party, right ski masks, Holding Rifles and shotguns. Everybody get down on the ground. Whoa what is happening? So everybody's face down. People are screaming, freaking out, and they like Zip Thai people's hands and you know, I don't know, there's two thousand and twenty five kids there, something like that. March us all out and load us up in a pickup truck man and they're screaming at us and like, you know, pushing us and all this onto the tracks of people are losing their minds, right. I mean people are generally scared, including me. People are crying and they say it's take off and rocks and tire squealing and and she again lives...

...towards the end of town, who's not very far. A couple of turns that were in the desert and again, it's hard to explain if you haven't been in that part of Arizona, but I mean when you're in the desert, you're in the desert. There is, yeah, nothing, there's no there's no stop sign, there's no telephone pole, there's a lizard and a snake and that is a mountain. That's it. Nothing. I mean it is remote. It was one of those deals where they'll never find the body, but they're taking us into the desert, like we're going to the desert. People are like, you know, a man has been great to know you other thing. You know, it was definitely a hey, this is this is how it all ends. Zip tied with my middle school friends and we're out there and we go around the mountain, around the corner, and we see like some balloons and a stage and we hear some music, live band. Surprise birthday part where they kept all the attendees as hostages for a time, but which was not how I expected it to go and was also not at all how the parents of the kids who were there expected it to go. Amy Joe left town not long after that, and I don't think that's an accident. Yes, you know, it's a great anecdote, because how many times this financial brands do we hold our account holders and our prospects hostage? Maybe not to the degree of the experience that you had, but when it comes to a lack of clarity into what happens next in the experience, because your life might not flash before your eyes, but we do who know that people are hesitant to apply for a loan, particularly even more so on the small business side of the house, because they're scared of whether or not they're going to get approved. And so they finally built up all of this courage, they commit, they apply and then it's like, what happens next? And so this is where I think it's key. With another story that you had shared recently about some work that you needed to be done on your pond in this House that you're moving into, it's speed of trust, the speed of responsiveness. You might not necessarily have the best experience, but speed is key here. Right. Yeah, for a couple of reasons. One, nobody likes to waste time and we talked about how expectations have changed, and I would argue that speed expectations have changed more than any other dimension of consumer expectations. Right, what was fast three years ago is commonplace today, and it was fast five years ago is slow today. Yeah, so there's always a pace of change, but I think speed changes the most aggressively and one of the challenges with that is you talked about this kind of lack of clarity and not knowing what comes next. Next. I call that the uncertainty gap, is the distance between what you know is going to happen and what the customer knows is going to happen, and one of the best things you can do is close that gap. Yep, there's two ways to do it, either to communicate more comprehensively and effectively and or to communicate more swiftly so that you don't have this gap of time and where you're like, I...

...don't know what's going to happen, because when people don't know what's going to happen, it creates friction and dissonance in their mind and that friction and dissonance keeps their money in their pocket. Right, they just they don't they're just you get paralyzed right paralyzed by uncertainty. So we've got this house we just spot, we're moving in in a day and a half, and it's got this why you don't even know how to describe it. It's like a water features, like a pond, but not really a pond. If it's a pond fountain, it's a pountain. I guess it's very nobody really knows what to make of it. It's cool, for sure. The house is designed by the architect we bought it from. It's a neat thing, but it's unusual and nobody, weirdly, in my town, Bloomington, Indiana, actually works on ponds. But the next count up there's a pond man and I did a bunch of googling to locate pond man and so I phoned him up and I left a voicemail and I said, Hey, I know I'm not even in your service territory, but I got this weird water thing and I don't even know how to turn this sucker on, much less take care of it. It would be amazing if you could come down here get it ship shape, at least teach me the basics, because I got literally no idea. He gets back to me within the hour. Wow, it says, Hey, I'm actually on a job right now and another part of the state, but I wanted to let you know that I've received your voice mail and I'm going to call you back tonight when this job is done. And I was like, wow, that's amazing, because now it's all of my mental checklist correct. I know that he's going to call me back, I know he has received the message, I know I don't know if he's gonna be able to help me, but at least I know he's on it and that could not be more important. It happens all the time. If actually, I'm actually doing a national research study to put some math around this, because I know it's true. You know it's true, we all know it's true. If you've got three vendors and you contact them, how often is the one who called you back first going to get your business, all else being equal, or even being unequal, in almost every case? And why is this true? Because today we have trained ourselves so that speed is interpreted as caring. Digital growth is a journey from good to great, but sometimes this journey can feel confusing, frustrating and overwhelming. The good news is you don't have to take this journey alone, because now you can join a community of growth minded marketing and sales leaders from financial brands and fin text who are all learning, collaborating and growing together. Visit Digital growthcom slash insider to learn more about how you can join the digital growth insider community to maximize your future digital growth potential. Now back to the show. YEA speed is carrying, speed of trust. And what are the greatest opportunities that I see here, particularly through the Lens of financial services, is automation, not from the Lens of robot but from the Lens of humanizing digital experiences through automation, because it that...

...automated email doesn't have to come from no reply at financial brandcom. It can come from Jay dot bear at financial brandcom. Even though it's automatically generated. We don't know the difference on the other side, but it's coming from a person. Just that alone you set up a positive experience. We see this all the time through the digital secret shopping studies that we do, and we then do comparative benchmarks against other local brands and then national competitors and even fin tech and Fintech lenders and it's fastening to see. I back to your point that this uncertainty gap and then it's like they're very simple things to do to close that gap. It's not rocket science. What, in your mind, are some of the greatest opportunities from your own experiences to to help financial brands be even better in these experiences and really around speed. I think the best thing you can do is actually talk to account holders, potential account holders, and really have an open ended conversation about the journey. This doesn't work as well in a survey format. It's much better in a oneonone kind of conversation where you say, all right, so when you submitted the application online, how did you feel? In a day later, how did you feel? And a couple days after that, how did you feel right and you start to gage there their uncertainty, their fear, their discombobulation and when you start to kind of pick up on some of those magic words that indicate dissatisfaction. What you have then as a Claret and when those red flag clarity warnings go up, what you should be thinking as a financial services company is, okay, if that red flag goes up, how can we make that a green flag. All we've got to do is communicate at that point. I'll give you an example, and there's a story of mine that you may not know. It's a moving company in Texas called square cow movers, owned by Wade Lombard, Really Smart Entrepreneur there in Houston, Dallas, San Antonio, Austin, I think, the big Texas cities. They run a good business right, and that's not always the case for moving company. Some moving companies are little like you know whatever, but these guys really have it together. Operationally, solid organization. Despite that, they were getting a whole bunch of next customer complaints. He was like, Huh, this confuses me because I know we're a good company, yet we've got all these unhappy customers. What's up? Did a smart then. He analyzed all those complaints. He talked to customers, he looked at the ratings and reviews, he transcribed some phone calls, he printed out some emails to their customer Support Team, kind of laid it all out on the floor that you know, and said Huh. Well, turns out most of the complaints weren't about moving, not really. It wasn't like you broke my piano where you scratch my wall or, you know,... broke the hinge of my refrigerator. It was all this peripheral stuff like, oh, I didn't know I had to trim that tree. Bransh I couldn't. I didn't know my cat shouldn't be there, I didn't know how to pack the dishes this particular way, didn't know what time the truck would come. And Wade said, well, that's all so bizarre because we already told them that stuff. See, when you book a move at square cow, you get a welcome kit in the mail and then you like a week out, I think, you get an email that reminds you of some stuff. In the night before you get a text message reminder and he's like, man, we already told them this stuff. But then he had an epiphany. He realized that one hundred percent of his customers are moving and, as I can tell you firsthand, when you are moving you are a crazy person, you're totally stressed out, you get a million things on your plate, and so what he understood at that moment was his customers were either too busy to read the stuff or read it and it didn't sink in, because there are two stressed out. So he had a simple solution and I think this can absolutely work for many financial companies. They just doubled all yes, the communication. That as in a onewelcome kid. They get too. Is it as in a one email? They get too. So it's in a one text message. They get to spaced it out, etc. And I asked him the question that everybody is listening right now is thinking. I said, Wade, doesn't that annoy your customers? And he told me something I will never forget and I hope you'll never forget it. He said, Jay, since we started this program and all the complaints went away, I've never had a customer say please stop informing me. So let me tie this back into financial services, because we did a secret shopping study looking really post conversion what was happening during the onboarding experience for a Community Institution and then we bench mark that against Chime and what we found is chime scent between fifteen to, I want to say, twenty five emails, depending upon the workflow and who the person was, within the first thirty to forty five days. The financial brands same thing. That's a lot of emails. Were people annoyed by all of that? We would never do such a thing to our account holders. Eighty five, eighty eight percent of people, as part of the exit conversation, shared no. That made me feel good because they told me exactly what I need to do next. They weren't putting everything up front. It's like you're here now, you are here, you're here, here's where you go next, and they pretty much broke it up piece by piece, step by step. Bye, bye bye, instead of putting everything all up front, like a lot of financial brands tend to do when it comes to on boarding a new account, which is then you can get into the whole point around retention challenges, which you know, I've had a fantastic conversation with Joey Coleman,...

...who I know. You know as well. Never lose a customer again, and and then also, coming out of that, back to the moving company example, which I want to move into here just a bit, the role of ratings, referrals and reviews, because what you do in the present moment around experience, it's like dropping a rock, it's like the butterfly effect that will reverberate for sometimes years to come. If you're not aware, and I was just having this conversation earlier this week with a financial brand of the making on digital growth program and we are talking about which is the our ratings, referrals in reviews, it's the are of the banker's strategy, circles, the methodology that we teach. And they're like, we can never do that. We have so many negative reviews right now, and I'm like, well, that's a problem, like let's figure out what's going on and why don't we address that? And you've written prolifically around this. You wrote talk triggers, you wrote Hug your haters. What do we do when we're struggling with haters, because we can't escape the fact that the experience of the present moment does reverberate into the future. I mean, first of all, if you've got a bunch of onestar reviews, there's probably a reason for that. It's not an accident. And the Mass on this has been proven time and I'm again across many academic studies really for decades, which is that for every one hundred dissatisfied customers, only five will actually complain, and that's across the totality of complaint mechanism. That's a negative review that's facetoface, that's talking to somebody in the branch, that's an email, it's a hostage note, it's you know whatever, five out of one hundred, which means if you've got ten negative reviews, you actually mathematically have a hundred and nine unhappy customers, right, because it sort of one than nineteen and twenty. One is the ratio typically. So you should not ignore those and say, well, those are weird, unusual circumstances where we had an unhappy account holder. It's like, no, that's probably more common, but you would think so. That's the first thing is to analyze that negativity and say, is there something specific and consistent that we are doing that people believe we are falling short? Now, if it's everyone's totally different, completely random, that's a different set of problems. But if it's always kind of the same issue, maybe you should just bus that issue right. And Amazon has this incredible thought exercise that they use, which of course is impossible in the real world, but I love it as a challenge, and it goes like this. Amazon believes they should never get the same complaint twice because if they do their job, they get a complaint, they fix it. They should never have somebody else complain. That's...

...kind of how they go about their business, I which I think is remarkably awesome. It's something to really strive for. If you've know that customers have an issue, then why, yes, you address that and then worry about kind of how to. It's a great point on Amazon. You know, out of some of those thought exercises we have the frustration free packaging. People were getting cut up and I was one of them, you know doing battle when I would buy something for my kids and it would come in this you know, clam shell plastic and it was just a beast to get into. I did speak on the point of the impact of one bad review strategies for improving the rating systems. Experience episode one hundred and six and some of the research that we found around this is for every one negative review, it takes forty positive red reviews to undo that damage. So there is an exponential effect here. We've talked about purpose. We've talked about how purpose can impact and guide experience and expectation setting. We've given a lot of really good practical examples from both inside the industry and outside the industry. As we begin to wrap up the conversation here together. Jay, I want to get a little bit personal with you because you got, you have some interesting things coming down the pipe and I think there's some lessons to be learned here for, I would say, more so, lender's leaders, branch managers, those who might not necessarily be in the marketing and experience space directly, even though they do play a direct impact into this. But you're going to be talking to Quila pretty soon. It's a little personal passion project. Give us a preview into that and then where might there be opportunities to take some of this passion project work for lenders, for leaders, into their own work within their own communities? Yeah, I have been a Tequila fan for a long time. I grew up in Arizona, as you remember from the Amado Jacob Story, so I went to school in Tucson right near the borders. Have always been a fan of a got a spirits and it's really an underappreciated, understudied part of the spirits where all there's a lot of nuance to it, lots of different brands. I find it really interesting in some a licensed Tequila catador, which is equivalent to a Somalie and can do tastings and all those kind of things. I'm going to start a tick tock channel. It's Tequila Jay, Tila DA J. that's coming up soon, and a new instagram account which is Tequila Jay bear. Both of those will be launched in the next few days and the goal is just to essentially help people who are interested in Tequila and a god the spirits but don't know the questions to ask. I want to close the uncertainty gap around Tequila. There's lots of Tequila influencer, if you will, content out there that essentially talks to other Tequila nerds right. So there's a lot of people out there making tick tock content for me, people who already love Tequila and drink very specific to Quila and collect Tequila and all that. There isn't a lot of content out there for people who don't know anything about Tequila but would like to, and that's what I'm going to set out to do. I just think it's going to be really fun, so excited it to get that rolling. And I would say two things for leaders and...

...managers and exacts, and I've said this for a long, long time, your personal life is infinitely more interesting than your business life like, unless you're a professional athlete or an astronaut. Whatever you like to do as you're a passion, is way more interesting, far more memorable and, if you do it consistently, will actually likely get you more new customers then whatever you do inside the walls of your bank. Right. So the fact that you're the banker who also grows prize when he roses. I'm gonna remember that. A lot more of them to remember your current Helock rate or whatever. Right. I mean it just like lean into it, and it's so common that people, especially in financial services, like taboo right to sort of combine your personal and professional brand, and it's such terrible advice, like get out there and tell people what you love. I seen this and I've been starting to have more and more conversations and it's so great to be and have the opportunity to be where we're at today, to capture all of this so that five years from now we can reflect back and where were we on the right path and where might we have been a little bit off? I'm predicting over the next three to five years, particularly through the linds of financial services, the micro has the potential to be the macro the the the micro brand of the lender, of the leader, of the branch manager has the potentially even out when the macro brand, through social through content. That's going to require a massive transformation of hearts and minds internally within the organization to help build their confidence to begin to commit to do exactly what they're doing in the real world, which is educating, which is guiding, which is helping people in the communities that are serving. Is just simply lifting that up and applying it through the different Lens. Jennifer Beaston is already doing that. She's a nation's top one percent mortgage lender doing a fantastic job really kind of niching around va mortgages. Paul long out of the northwest, he's doing that as well. He's actually as it as an individual commercial lender solo. He is bringing together and he's been doing this. I think this is two thousand and fifteen. He's bringing together two hundred businesses out of the northwest for a conference and he's bringing speakers together and I'm like, if people are doing this now, what can you do over the next three to five years to massively create value at scale? Then what you're doing here in the present moment. It's really about bringing the future into the present and it comes from just transforming hearts and minds, which I hope we've been able to do together here today. Jay, thank you for your thinking. I want to get really practical at the end. One last question, because all transformation that leads to future growth begins with a very small and simple step. What would be that small, simple step that you would recommend for the dear listener to take today to continue to move down their path towards digital growth with courage, with confidence? One small, simple thing.

From your perspective, there's a reason why you're not doing the things that we talked about today, and it's because you're scared of something. Grab a piece of paper and a pencil. Works better when you do it Longand as opposed to on a keyboard, and just genuinely write down what you're scared of as specifically as possible, because when you give your fears shaped this form and dimension, in many cases you realize that it's not really worthy of those fears. It's just sort of an amorphous dread more so than something that you should actually be scared of. And sometimes wiping that away will give you them. That's such such great advice and you know from my own personal experience, particularly over the last ten years, when this organization made a massive transformation, because I was on the edge of losing my marriage. I was not balanced at all and had to call in some outside help and we did some of these exercises and it was through the riding that it begin to calm the monkey mind. And I think in this world of digital there's a lot of distraction, there's a lot of noise. I always say attention is gold in this digital economy. We can do everything possible to calm that monkey mind and sometimes it's going back to the analog get the pin, get the pay for and just let it come out. Right it out. Jay. This has been a great conversation, great way to wrap things up here. What is the best way for someone to connect with you to continue the conversation we've started here? Gay bearcom is my main website and my newsletter which comes out every two weeks, including birthday party stories, customer experience lessons, book reviews occasional Tequila reviews. It's called the bear facts. You can go to the bear factscom and sign up I'd love to have you, the bear Factscom, be aeer correct. Yes, sir, be a Er Factscom, the bear factscom. Connect with J, learn from J, grow with Jj. Thanks for joining me for another episode of banking on digital growth. This has been a lot of fun today. Thanks as always an until next time, be well, do good and make your bed. Thank you for listening to another episode of banking on Digital Growth with James Robert Leigh. To get even more practical and proven insights, along with coaching and guidance. This it digital growthcom slash insider to join a community of growth minded marketing and sales leaders from financial brands and Finn Tax until next time, be well and do good.

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