Banking on Digital Growth
Banking on Digital Growth

Episode · 1 year ago

109) #ExponentialInsights: Predicting FinTech & Strategies to Stay Relevant

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

With all the emerging FinTech, it’s important to reflect on what is currently working in the industry to predict where the space is headed next. Only then can an organization restructure itself to welcome the new technologies.

Alex Sion, Managing Director, Head of Venture Incubation, Global Consumer, Citi Ventures at Citi, joins the show to discuss his experience with the finance industry and preparation strategies for emerging growth.

What we talked about:

- Alex’s Journey and Transforming Banking

- Reflecting on the Financial Industry to Move Forward

- Trends, Patterns, & Purpose of D10X

- Roadblocks within Emerging Growth to be Aware Of

- Jobs to be Done Theory Explained

- The Opportunities of the “Intrepreneurship”

- FinTech VS. The Incumbents

- Recommendations for Risk Aversion & Personal Growth to the Dear Listener

Check out this resource we mentioned during the podcast:

Alex.sion@citi.com

To hear more interviews like this one, subscribe to Banking On Digital Growth on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your preferred podcast platform.  

...within the terms of future growth and the dynamics that are changing. I think it's absolutely essential to be spending a good amount of time reflecting on that. Mhm. Yeah, You're listening to banking on digital growth with James Robert lay a podcast that empowers financial brand marketing, sales and leadership teams to maximize their digital growth potential by generating 10 times more loans and deposits. Today's episode is part of the exponential insight series where James robert interviews the industry's top marketing sales and fintech leaders sharing practical wisdom to exponentially elevate you and your team. Let's get into the show greetings and hello I am James robert, ley and welcome to the 109th episode of the Banking on Digital Growth podcast. Today's episode is part of the exponential insight series and I'm excited to welcome Alex See onto the show, Alex is the global consumer banking lead for the D 10 X program which incubates new products and businesses designed to generate new organic growth for city. Before joining Citi Ventures, Alex was the General manager of Mobile for jpmorgan Chase. In addition to co founding, moving the world's first neo bank in 2012, Alex brings a tremendous amount of experience and insight around innovation and banking, which is exactly what we're going to talk about today, to educate, to empower to elevate you the dear listener as you continue to move forward and make progress along your own digital growth journey. Welcome to the show, Alex James, thank you for having me before we get into it. What are you excited about right now, personally or professionally, in this this new world that we're navigating through together. I am excited in, you know, I think the fintech world coming out of Covid and the pandemic period has really accelerated beyond anybody's estimations, so if you kind of remember When when the pandemic 1st started, there are a lot of boardrooms in the banking universe that had assembled with the assumption that the Fintech kind of phenomenon was going to go by the wayside and that it was a great opportunity, frankly too large incumbents to to harvest, you know, kind of the roadkill right from the Fintech highway. So there was a lot of boardrooms that were kind of preparing capital and plans to basically do just that. And as we all know that that didn't happen like not by a long shot and many of the underlying trends that we're kind of behind the phenomenon that we know it's Syntex just accelerated beyond anybody's estimation. So I'm really excited that, you know, the kind of the vision of the world that I believed in, Why did I believed...

...in for decade plus, it's really coming to fruition now, which I think creates just enormous opportunities, you know, pretty much everywhere throughout them, all the finance. So I think it's a really exciting time to be engaged in the space. Well, you speak about, you know, this belief that you've held for a decade plus and all of the opportunities before we dive into some of those innovation opportunities available financial for financial brands to either create or to capture. I want to, I want to go back in time with you is As as you've had a very interesting journey along the way, are passive cross indirectly when you were co founding moving with Brett King 10 years ago in in 2012. And and it was that movement started by moving as well as simple 10 years ago that really helped spur on this beginning of innovation in the banking space in the Fintech space that's continued to Increasing speed over the last decade, even really more of the last 15, 18 months, thanks to COVID. So when you think about just this past decade, where you've been this journey, what has been the biggest progress that you've seen in regards to innovation when you reflect back at the macro level? Yeah, no, that's a great question. James. So, and I've been doing a lot of reflection day just to get my head around, you know, where the world is heading next. But I think it all started when when wet and I kind of began the moving journey. The catalyst really was the, the iphone, right? You know, the, the introduction of the iphone um as well as kind of what was going on in social and what was emerging in payments and digital payments at the time. And we saw the combo of the three really starting to coalesce In kind of that 2007, kind of time playing like the colonels were kind of laid back then. And at that point, what we saw was kind of an inevitable journey like where, you know, the things that were happening with the mobile devices and the advancements there would inevitably plus kind of social and what that did to behaviors like relative to digital and then what was happening kind of in the payments will, which actually was going back decades and decades. Kind of the advancement of digital payments. We saw kind of a world emerging where all of these things would inevitably combined and what that would do it was is that it would fundamentally re architect the nature of, Of commerce right in general. And we tied sort of commerce back to essentially banking and money. And it struck both of us at the time that this kind of inevitable path that we kind of saw happening even in 2008 would essentially break the bunking model like, you know, famously according the term of breaking banks in his, his kind of own show, but that really was the kind of the thesis was that where the world heading with the social behaviors,...

...these technology that was kind of under enabling things would render the banking model as we knew it in almost every way you can think of as insufficient to kind of support the the needs of commerce, which which is what banking was founded to do in some ways. So we, we saw, you know, what I guess I'd say is that summarizing is that I think that it's really the event was 2008, right? Like you know, and it was really just this, you know, to me, to me I'm almost like a predictable past that has had infection points along the way. But it hasn't really been any surprising things. I would say maybe the advent of digital currencies, which we kind of thought about a little bit like it was kind of a key kind of unexpected, you know, kind of black swan and when everything that could really kind of change everything eventually. But, but I don't know if we've really been surprised by anything other than maybe the speed and the capital right now sitting upon it. I've gone through over the past decade or so various iterations on whether or not I think Syntex win will win, or incumbents will win or end up being partnership models. I think that's another area where I I'm still thinking a lot about whether the jury is still out on that and it slipped my opinion a couple times over the past couple of years. But but I actually think that nothing has really been that surprising. It's really nearly 2000 and we just got to kind of look, look out and see where the ball's inevitably get along too right. And you you said a couple of key points that I want to dive deeper on just from a personal perspective, because you mentioned that you've been doing a lot of reflection, You've been doing a lot of thinking how important is it at a we'll just call it a a leadership level out of financial brand to create that space and time to break free from the doing of whatever it is. Because I think if you get stuck in doing when it comes to innovation, that's a very dangerous place to be because otherwise, you've got a wave of transformation and change happening at an environmental level, happening at a cultural level of society level. Technology level all coming up behind you. How important is it to create that space and time to just stop to pause to review, to reflect, to learn to think so that you can do even better going forward. And how do you apply that just within your own personal methodologies here? Yeah, no, I I think it's fundamentally critical like and I think you really starts with reflecting and really coming to terms with the idea of future growth and what it will take to continue to sustainably grow. I actually don't even like the word innovation much these days. I would rather kind of use the word of emerging growth of future growth is a better way to think about it. So I think every executive task disband, I mean they're...

...the charter is to continuously drive drive growth like for their organization and in pursuit of that. You've got to be coming to the recognition these days that that the old tricks of how you grew are diminishing returns and that there are thin tex out there who are essentially running new new tricks and and at this point you've got to come down to that, you know capitulation that ain't these some of these new tricks are working all right, the fundamentally working. And if you just reflect spend time reflecting on that not within the context of new ideas or you know what I call the shiny trinkets mode of innovation, the you know idea generation but think of it very practically within the terms of future growth and the dynamics that are changing. I think it's absolutely essential to be spending a good amount of time reflecting on that. And then to the second part of your question organizationally, I think that what that does is if you think about the world in that way that kind of like old group playbooks and new growth playbooks, you will inevitably come to the recognition that that those new growth playbooks are counterintuitive, like the math doesn't work upon how you think about the world today, like the business cases won't add up and so therefore you by your organization of design in your DNA are almost inevitably going to reject, oh leave growth strategies. You know, you've almost got a fundamentally come to terms with that and just say look that can't be the answer right? It can't be the answer that we keep exploring these ideas and at the end of the day they just never add up because they're adding up for other people. So you know figure that out and then that usually requires a different organization structure, permission, process, whatever it is, but you can't do it from your existing playing field. And that's one of the things that I've been in, the advisory and the coaching work that I do have been just encouraging so many, like Covid is just a preview. It's just a preview. It's the warm up of what is to come and to really use this experience as a way to just get comfortable feeling uncomfortable because what's going to happen over the next 5 to 10 years because if we go back, I think 2008, it's a great time period because like you said, The launch of the iPhone, the rise of social media, you know, YouTube coming online. I think back to whenever I got into this space, it was 2001 2002 and built uh almost essentially early social network called Bear Swamp, which was at Baylor University. And it was a way to bypass the bookstore that was ripping students off at the time. And so we connected students with students to do some type of commerce exchange.

And we were going to take that and license it and bring it to other universities. And then a guy by the name of Mark Zuckerberg had a much bigger vision of connecting people online and we were just looking at a small microcosm of it. But it was a great learning experience. And so when we leap ahead to the present moment and the work that you're doing as head of venture incubation through the work of D 10 Acts, what's the purpose of D 10 X and and what will be some of the trends and patterns that you're seeing through that work that you're doing right now as a team when it comes to. And I like that. It's not just innovation, it's really about growth at the end of the day. Yeah. And I think that is the evolution of that I've seen in my climate city with D 10 X is when I first kind of arrived at city, there was there was an emphasis on culture change in ideation, right? Like, you know, as kind of the crux of innovation and what I've seen is that more very much into what I would call the emerging growth strategy, right? Looking very being very aligned with the business in their growth objectives and focused on exactly the same metrics and targets that they're focused on. But looking at it from what we call, you know, this challenger lens, you know, their business kind of partnering very closely with the business to essentially run parallel almost a B testing of different ways to go about, quote, right? So, you know, everybody wants to grow and as a target of growing by X percent, it's just like how would you do it? And then how would how would we do it if you can. X. And, and often that creative tension with, you know, thinking about growth and segments and, and marketing and value propositions very differently. You know, more like an unencumbered startup, I think challenges and raises the time for everybody. So what we're doing these days is spending a lot of time deeply embedded and partnered with the business in their growth strategy pursuits and then really kind of using essentially a different frame of reference, the Challenger frames of reference and some of the methodology that you would use in the start up world to essentially be risk high potential growth concepts in a different way. We're just applying those principles to the growth objectives that city is already pursuing and I think it's been a great kind of great partnership and really done wonders for the you mentioned the startup world, which in my mind just immediately jumps to more of an agile like methodology. Learning from experiences applying those new new insights going forward and essentially taking what we call the four digital growth operating environments of you can be learning, you can be thinking, you can be doing, you can be reviewing and the fastest you can cycle through each one of those environments, the faster that growth will happen. And when you think about the idea of emerging growth strategy, I'm curious...

...to gain your perspective and insight for the dear listener what holds people back from really leaning into emerging growth? What are those roadblocks to be aware of in the mind? More so than anything? I think? Yeah, I think a lot of it, I've spent a lot of time reflecting on the fundamental business construct of terms that are have identified a clear profitability model and it's been working for the past century plus, Right? And what that essentially does is it kind of hard wiring this great strategy path to the point at which it can be and rightly so, incredibly efficient and mechanical, right and prescribes. And that's not a bad thing, Like it's not a bad thing. But at the same point in time, I feel like what's happened in digital is that it is upended some of the laws, you know, kind of the laws of physics, like my my boss, Vanessa Colella, the head of innovation for city often talks about the difference between theoretical physics and applied physics. Like uh and and wants us to be much more in the applied physics land. And so we've got this thesis, the pin text got these faces. But essentially the rules of physics for the banking business model have changed and therefore, you know, you can talk about it all day long like in that theoretical zone. But how do you actually get out there and then basically challenges fundamental notions of what is the right segment to go after? What is the right business model? How do you monetize like the customer relationship in very different ways. Again, in ways that will see like to the banking business models lost lead very risky, operationally prohibitive. Right? But you but you gotta get out there. And so I think that the only way to do that is to is to be out there, right? um because the cost of entry gets incredibly more expensive, right? As these texts get more legs under them, because a lot of money to buy into a new paradigm, once it's already set, technology has transformed our world and digital has changed the way consumers shop for and buy financial services forever. Now, consumers make purchase decisions long before they walk into a branch, if they walk into a branch at all, but your financial brand still wants to grow loans and deposits, we get it. Digital growth can feel confusing, frustrating and overwhelming for any financial brand, marketing and sales leader, but it doesn't have to because James robert wrote the book that guides you every step of the way along your digital growth journey, visit www dot digital growth dot com to get a preview of his best selling book banking on digital...

...growth Or order a copy right now for you and your team from Amazon inside you'll find a strategic marketing manifesto that was written to transform financial brands and it is packed full of practical and proven insights you can start using today to confidently generate 10 times more loans and deposits now back to the show and when you're talking about profitability models and almost disrupting yourself, I can't help but think of the story of netflix and how netflix they had. You know, going against Blockbuster, they tried to for an acquisition with Blockbuster that was denied. So then they went direct to market and built that up and then they took their DVD model and then transform that into streaming and then streaming and now they're really a production house. And so it's this continuous evolution and and when I think about new revenue models to I think about the work that joe policy has done has been a guest on the show. He was the founder of the Content Marketing Institute and he has this whole philosophy of content ink and how content can fuel these different business models. So I think there's a lot of of ways of just rethinking how we generate revenue by creating value for account holders and that opens up whole new possibilities. But it does come down to that one word of practicality applying this that actually creates, it's not just so theoretical and you noted previously almost like an A. B. Testing methodology and you've written about this when you think about running these kind of two parallel business models, these patterns when we're thinking about this. One of the things that you noted in this article was something that I'm and I'm grateful to see this, I'm hearing more and I would say it's probably on the fin tech side of things. But what Clayton Christensen writes about, which is this theory of jobs to be done because it's such a new idea in this space. Could you just unpack briefly at a high level of what our jobs to be done and what value can they create when thinking about these new profitability and revenue models for emerging growth? Yeah, well, the way I think about jobs as a product person, product entrepreneur is what I'd say very different than the way I try to articulate jobs to kind of sea level stakeholders who are allocating capital. Right? So let me try to take, let me try to explain the first part like that product octagonal jobs is pretty straightforward in that it is really what is the fundamental value proposition that you are delivering to the customers, like what are you helping them to accomplish? Not the service you offer, but essentially the solution, the problem that they are trying to solve and really kind of deeply to understand that. So for products and services, that sounds like very, very simple, straightforward language, but where it gets complex for large incumbent organizations is that...

...that can be extolled at the, you know, kind of at the product level, the US level all day long, people will agree, but it's that it's the construct above it. And we were just talking about like the capital allocation, how the C. Level people think and how they process it. What I would change when I'm talking to them. What I try to talk about is the fact that behavior change in technology are opening up these essentially different playbooks, right? That that will feel illogical and just kind of grant yourself that they are logical, like you'll never make the business case work in your head. But if you can recognize and at least reconcile the volatility right? And just admit to yourself that it's a volatile time, then what I like to say to C level executives is how would you if your assets allocating assets like your job is to allocate growth capital right across the business in the appropriate ways, how much capital have you allocated towards this new playbook? Volatility fundamentally. How much like what's the dollar amount? And I guarantee you if they went through the math that they would find is there probably it's de Minimus right? It's not a relevant level of allocation. Given or appropriate level of allocation, given the volatility, given the risk that this voluntary represents. So it really is, it kind of elevates the conversation and say, look, you don't have to buy what I'm saying in terms of jobs or kind of admit to yourself that you're not customer centric or whatever creates all these problems, but you can at least, you know, kind of admit that as a capital allocator, right? And a growth capital allocator that you are under hedged? Yes, right? Like you are under hedged, and if you can do that, then you can at least set aside this appropriate risk rising investment to explore What then will become jobs right at the end of the day, you know, so I think it's two different ways to explain it on the product level, it's pretty straightforward, but the more complex one that I think is really the hardest thing for the industry get is that other side, Yeah. And you've touched on this idea, you mentioned the word entrepreneurship earlier, My mind then goes to the other side of the spectrum of what are the opportunities, if any, from an entrepreneurship when it comes to looking at emerging growth? Because when you think about entrepreneurship, it's looking for opportunities putting people at the center of all of your thinking, all of your doing human centered design, human centered growth for example. But what are the opportunities for, let's just call it entrepreneurship to bring that capability into a financial brand, to spur further emerging growth opportunities here. I think it's essential to organic growth, right?...

Like so if you're frankly you're at a at a place now in banking where, you know, J. P. Morgan Chase today just acquired another finn tack in the DSG space right? Like there's there are gonna be more acquisitions happening in right? And it organically to pivot business models. The problem with inorganic growth is that it's expensive, especially when you have no kind of inhibitors to scale and you've got such, you know, kind of intensity on the private and adventure market side, beating up prices. It's expensive, it's going to be expensive way for them to come back to turn around. So to your point, entrepreneurship becomes them essential, right? Like you've got to be, you know, organic growth is the best way to do it. It's the cheapest way to do it. And then what do you need for that? Like we need to kind of unplug people from the matrix. You need to kind of have that, you know, ability to kind of have people inside who frankly are best positions to understand both the business model and the growth objectives and the strategy of the firm and the customer is all those things. If you can you can do the work to provide them with the lane to play a different way and to think a different way. I actually think that's the most efficient way to drive transformation. But it's hard, it's hard. I'm not trivializing that path, but I do think if you just kind of stay back and just look at it from a pure she global economics perspective, you would rather do that than to uh, you know, to enter to organically do it correct? And as as you're talking about this idea of organic growth, I want to play for a moment and I've had this conversation twice this week alone with Fintech since a couple of them are actually just trying to get started up and I'm a Fintech. Let's just assume I'm a Fintech and I have two choices. I can go direct to market B two C or I could go B two B, two C. And then look to bring my capability into an incumbent financial brand and probably get faster scale because the incumbent has the eyeballs, they have the audience. But then the Fintech has the capabilities and the technologies. What are the opportunities there? Because you mentioned this to begin our conversation of, is it going to be the fintech that wins? Is it gonna be the incumbents or is it gonna be a blended world of two? Where's your thinking here? Right now? At this point in time with, with with the right to to change your mind? Yeah. James, it's a great question and I had over the over the decade, no less than three conversions on this thesis, like, like uh along the way. And I to be honest, like, so would I not anticipate, you know, forget, and I anticipate cut early on in the movement days, some of it was the extent of how quickly and how massively...

...the private markets would embrace thin tag. I mean, we kind of all knew that it was such a massive space and it was just a matter of time, like when we were trying to raise money for moving in the early days, people don't even know what we're talking about. Like it wasn't, there wasn't the word sent back to describe it right? Or much less the benchmarking tables on Fintech fundraisers. But I had, it continues to blow my mind the amount of private capital being driven into this space. So that's kind of one factor that I look at an o'clock relatives who can win. But I think it's difficult to argue now to say that insect that has achieved some kind of differentiation in the market does not have the access to capital to go against the biggest companies in the world. I think that that's definitely, you know, they're now right. It maybe wasn't at a point in time when I had slipped on the other side. The other thing is really the consumer behaviours, right? So I clocked out a lot and obviously money is a very sensitive topic and, and trust is a huge part of it. Absolutely, you know, and there's so, so much ingrained in human behaviors, so it's that bet on human behaviors and how far will they really index? And again, like there have been points in time where I was just like, it's maybe not going to go as far as as Bitcoin wanted to go right, you know, but I've been proven wrong on that, right? And I feel like now that's another in a dynamic right, where the consumer behaviors are continuing to go further than I had anticipated in the world of money, like than I ever thought it could the last bit, which is really kind of that, I think the biggest X factor of all is governments, like, and, you know, the non financial players who have the ability from governments to the retailers to the Congress players, if they don't want to play right, they can shut this all down, they can they can figure out a way to shut it all down. And again, that's an area where I was more cynical in the past, and I really didn't event, you know, I thought they were like, you know, some of the large retailers would end up reinforcing some of the old relationships with banks, maybe that would shut the system down, some of the government's would step in and shut things down, but that's not happening either, right? Um, and I, and again I continue to be, you know, amazed by the deals, right? Like that some of these early stage context, private companies are able to strike with massive commerce players, right? And um that just they rival, you know, they exceed those of what large, for example super regionals in the U. S. Could achieve, for example, like that's just the stuff that I would never thought would have happened and it's happening. So I guess that's a long...

...winded web saying, I do feel like it's it's we're now at another place where it's anybody's guess correct. Um And it might even be leaning towards a greater sense of urgency incumbents to really really really take this seriously now. Well, you know, you you've touched on this a couple of times in our conversation this idea of digital currency Bitcoin, crypto. The way that I look at this like in 2021 Is almost where the Internet was in 1996, There's a couple of like Good Morning America style shows where they were making fun of email and what is email and how does it all work that you can find on Youtube. And I'm almost like that's where we're at right now with crypto and digital currency. And I understand like that's creating a lot of angst and anxiety at the leadership level because that really is where things are going to get transformed. I mean NCR just did that deal with and I forgot who the brand was but it's a it's a gas station somewhere like on the east coast so that you can pay in Bitcoin. And when you think about all of this change happening in the speed of change changes, hard changes, scary. Change is painful when it comes to a just being a financial brand leader. What are your recommendations to others? To the dear listeners so that they can just deal and overcome some of this change in this risk aversion so that it does not become an expense or cost going forward into the future. Yeah. Yeah. I really think the conversations that need to be happening needs to kind of go in some ways need to take a step back and away from what I'll call product level conversations like so so top, stop talking about feature function. Stop talking about customers interest city stop talking about widgets. Yes. And then now elevate the conversation and talk about strategic risk and capital allocation. Right. Right. And how you are investing, you know the capital of the firm talk about that and if you kind of like if you just raise it up to that level, and it becomes a rational discussion on the dynamics of volatility when I was mentioning before, and at the end of the day, it's very difficult to conclude that there was no risk out there, you'd be crazy, like, and then then you can price that risk, right? Like that's what banks do, like that's what financial services firms do. And if we price that risk appropriately, then it becomes something we know how to do, right, It's mechanical and so if we can do that, and then you get to the conversation on features, functions and blah, blah, blah, or frankly, don't don't, you know, just make out take the capital and just and just set the strategy going. But I do feel like maybe we've been focused too long on the wrong thing, which is kind of the,...

...the widgets, the feature is the customer and we've convinced ourselves that this is not a big deal that we can copy, you know, kind of what's going out there and react fast enough. And we're missing really the whole point, which is this is the business model. It's this it's this kind of like the page that they're operating from. It's just different, making decisions day in and day out very differently than we make them within large banks. And we have to come to terms with that. Yes. And and that's where, you know, I think about what what I call and I wrote about this in the book, banking on digital growth. But you have what I have have coined the purpose statement pyramid at the foundation of that is the what this is what we do. And you mentioned there's a lot at the product level that there's a lot of R and D. And and it's not research and development, it's ripping off and duplicating what others are doing. Then you have the level next level up. It's the how, it's it's the experience that you bring to bear through the what, then it's the who getting really clear of who are you creating this value for. And then at the pinnacle it's and I see a lot of Fintech probably thinking about this more than anything. It's the why, it's why are we doing this and tapping into that? And then letting, inform the why, letting the why inform the who, then the how and then ultimately the what and then it trickles down all the way from that, that higher order thinking or the higher level of of purpose. This has been a fantastic conversation Alex and and and I'm grateful for all of the knowledge, the insights that you've shared with, the dear listener here today. As we wrap things up, you talk about practicality and I always like to end on a very practical note. What is one practical recommendation when it comes to? And we're not going to use the word innovation back to your point, we're going to use the word growth or emerging growth. How can they capture some emerging growth starting small because all change. All transformation begins with a small, simple step, a small action, a small commitment. What would be that small action, that small commitment that you would recommend that they could take going forward on their own journeys of growth here today? Yeah, I I would actually, the practical stuff I recommend is have your finance team do the analysis on that allocation of growth investment capital and identify the numbers that you truly believe is being spent on emerging growth, like at a hedge, yep, right to that risk, you know, identify that number, walk around when you identify the number, make sure the board knows that number, like raise it to that level, that that should be a known number, you know, I don't at all kind of the sea levels of any bank restitution out there. To me that's a very practical first step is do the financial work to identify how your allocated relative to your growth investors. Absolutely, well, Alex, thank you so much for all of the knowledge today, if anyone wants to just connect with you to say hello, what's the best way for them to reach...

...out and do that? Sure, absolutely. You can reach me at city Alex dot S I O N at city dot com. Excellent, excellent. Reach out to Alex say hello, thank him for all of the knowledge that you shared today and thank you Alex once again for joining me on another episode of banking on digital growth. This has been great man, awesome. Thanks. James appreciate it as always and until next time be well. Do good and make your bed. Thank you for listening to another episode of banking on digital growth with James robert, ley like what you hear, tell a friend about the podcast and leave us a review on apple podcasts, google podcasts or Spotify and subscribe while you're there to get even more practical improvement insights visit www dot digital growth dot com to grab a preview of James roberts, best selling book banking on digital growth Or order a copy right now for you and your team from Amazon inside you'll find a strategic marketing and sales blueprint framed around 12 key areas of focus that empower you to confidently generate 10 times more loans and deposits until next time, be well and do good.

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