Banking on Digital Growth
Banking on Digital Growth

Episode · 5 months ago

148) #ExponentialInsights: Overdrafts: It’s Really Not About Fees (Really!)

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Let these numbers frighten you a little bit:

-6% of U.S. households are unbankable and 18.7% are underbanked

-The payday loan check cashing industry is about $32 billion

-9% of bank account holders pay 84% of the $11 billion in annual overdraft fees

It’s no wonder that overdrafts are the common enemy that financial brands need to vanquish.

In this episode, I speak with Joel Schwartz, Founder & Co-CEO at DoubleCheck Solutions, about the need to give consumers what they need (financial relationships) and what they want (financial flexibility and control):

Join us as we discuss:

- Why overdrafts are such a hot topic at this moment

- It’s customer control that’s the issue, not overdraft fees

- Digital growth opportunities for offering compassion

- Updating old-fashioned mindsets about banking services

- Why doing the right thing is good business

You can find this interview and many more by subscribing to Banking on Digital Growth on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, or here.

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for Banking on Digital Growth in your favorite podcast player.

...where are these americans going there? Going to pity a little letters and shed caches. So if credit unions and banks stop offering over drafted, they don't offer alternatives. They're going to go somewhere where it's going to provide that need. You're listening to banking on digital growth with James robert lay a podcast that empowers financial brand marketing, sales and leadership teams to maximize their digital growth potential by generating 10 times more loans and deposits. Today's episode is part of the exponential insight series where James robert ley interviews the industry's top marketing sales and fin tech leaders sharing practical wisdom to exponentially elevate you and your team. Let's get into the show greetings and hello I am James robert ley and welcome to the 148th episode of the Banking on digital growth podcast. Today's episode is part of the exponential insight series and I'm excited to welcome Joel Schwartz to the show, Joel is the founder and co chief executive officer at double check solutions, financial technology company, generating revenue for financial brands by giving consumers and small businesses more transparency and control by calming the confusion and chaos of non sufficient funds and overdrafts. Welcome to the show, Joel. It is so good to have you on today buddy. Thank you James, I'm excited to be here before we get into this great conversation and an important one that is impacting so many different lives. Doesn't matter if you're a consumer. It doesn't matter if you're a small business before we get there? I always like to start off on a positive note, what is one good thing that's been happening for you. What are you most excited about right now personally, professionally it is always your pick personally. My daughter just started at U. C. Irvine, my son's back in school enjoying life professionally, a patent issued it last month for our technology. So we get to own the sector has been incredible, incredible and company is doing extremely well. Have incredible team. That's probably if I had you both scores and give them both nines and you can get 10 yet is because you never know what's around before. It's exactly right. You always want to have that little bit of room to do something even better to optimize, to take it to the next level to grow from good to great. That's right. Make that night even stronger than What does that look like? What does that 10 feel like that even for that small moment. Turn it what what was it? Uh turn it up to 11. There was a there was a movie with the amP, we're gonna turn it up to 11 and it was it was kind of a parody. I can't, it was a rock n roll movie. I cannot think of what it was, but you want to, you want to crank it up to how can you crank it up a lot of than a 10 because you put in 11 on the amp and since you turn it up to make it a level 11. So let's create, let's let's exactly, let's crank it up today. Um When it...

...comes to the work that you're doing the important work the meaningful work. Because according to an american banker article, PNC PNC found that overdrafts have been the number one pain point. The number one aggravation for customers for consumers. And Vox reported between March 13 2020 and september 2021 account holders filed over 1600 complaints against various banks to the C. F. P. B. About overdraft fees. I'm curious. I want to get your take on this. Why are overdrafts becoming such a hot topic now? Maybe even a flash point. Let's created this environment. What's created this buzz? Yeah it's almost the perfect storm one is we've had a complete change in political climate. So what's the consumer protection side has never been larger and higher and more focused. And let's let's also look at our situation, we just came or still in covid actually but we're just coming off the higher coded where the government was giving up trillions of dollars just to keep people afloat. So the dollars, everything, every dollar that was being collected by whether it was the low to moderate income or individuals, everything has a bigger focus on. So it's not just the complaints what people are complaining about and then the complaints and that rolls over to the dollar numbers and the dollar numbers are well why are you charging so much? It doesn't really get to the root of it. It's 100% the perfect storm of events are taking place, which is why our technology has become so you know, it's always been needed out there, but it could never and has never been more reality. It is, it is the perfect storm. It's a lot of these different factors, elements hitting all at once. And we've been seeing some optimization around overdraft, you know, happening for the past few years in the fintech space for example, chime, they have spot me covers customers who overdraw, you know, as much as $200 past their mouth in there, A cow, we got varo varo who covers transactions up to $50 over users balance and both, you know, chime and some of these others they're targeting a millennial and a really a gen Z demographic when it comes to the pain of overdraft. What can we really be aware of? What can the financial brand, What can the dear listener be aware of when it comes to evolving customer expectations in this space here because there are things that are happening and moving pretty quickly. Yeah, well technology obviously alliance, all those china, you just mentioned office of technology advantage and there's the gen Z and what we're going after formal millennials I guess, but they want service and they want service particularly. Now time has said, we're not going to charge for certain ways we're going to give you an extra $50 we're going to pay it off. And even time it goes back to an overdraft. Initially started out the overdraft...

...intent was to pay a certain amount of items to cover it and rather than the item actually leaving them. So the expectation is how do I continue to give service the way my customer demands, I get my service. And if my bank, my local bank is going to give it to me the way I want it or as time gonna offer it and each one of them offers a unique benefit. And as it relates to overdraft, how do I get when I have a problem? And I know this is the whole topic of our conversation and we'll get over and over. How do I get the access and control that I want at the time that I actually want. Right, well, I think that's that's an important point. Let's dive deeper into that because I always find that if we can Number one identify number to name a common enemy, we have the ability to create a community around defeating that common enemy and in this particular case, the common enemy, the villain of our story today, our narrative is a overdraft. Yes. Mhm. What are the opportunities. But before we get to the, before we get to opportunities? I want to, I don't know where you're going with this by the way. I love love where you're going with this. I want to take it, take it a little bit of a different path before you to the opportunities because we're speaking about a common enemy, the overdraft. We're speaking about a villain. What is a common belief? Let's take an inside out point of view here from the mind of a financial brand leader. What is a common belief that a financial brand leader might have around overdrafts that you just disagree with? That is the biggest misconception that it's about. Maybe sometimes it's the cost of the, but they think it's about the future And when you realize it's not about that. So my history and I get a little bit of my background here too. I came from the banking industry and worked in banking for almost 20 years And how I thought of what double check actually does was hearing what my customers were actually yelling and screaming about and the misconceptions both I had to pay $35 or $70 and feast now that that really wasn't the problem if you really hurt but they're yelling, do you realize what just happened to me? You know I now have late fees. Uh my my mortgage company is nagging me, I took a 50-point hit on my credit because you didn't give me a call back and the customer was saying why didn't you let me know what was actually happening. So what they needed was they needed access, they needed flexibility, they needed control of what was actually happening. So when you see these institutions out there saying, oh, we're going to get rid of our overdraft fees, we're gonna we're not gonna do it. What are you really doing? What you're doing is you're exasperated. The problem. Right. I have a I think I thought of actually something earlier. It was a flight or...

...fight and the flight or fight of overdrafts and it's the first time I've ever meant it, which would be on this podcast. But I think we're gonna start using more often is what do you want to do as an institution? So you're the misconception. So I, well, we're charging thieves and what we'll do is we'll stop charging them all together. Okay, Well then that means that's the flight, you're going to leave your customers and you're going to see you know what we're going to send everything back, but we're not gonna charge you anymore. And we're going to turn our backs on. Who that should be saying is we're going to fight for our customers and we're going to give them the service, we're going to give them the control, we're going to give them the access that they want and that's the decision institution has to make. So if your perception is all we're just gonna get rid of overdraft fees. No, no, no, that's not what it's all about. So I think that's the biggest misconceptions about how about the fees? No, some institutions have lowered it and I give them enough that they should be doing because there could be an affordability aspect. Well and I think this idea of fight or flight coming back to this idea of a common villain here is when we think about overdraft and you look at the data it really disproportionately hurts the lower income consumer who really needs the protection the most. We look at a study from the center for responsible lending in 2020 and they found that 9% of bank account holders pay 84% Of more than 11 billion and overdraft fees collected every year. And and and now is the time like you said the perfect storm the common enemy? The villain. Why should financial brands be thinking about revamping overdraft policies now before they're forced to do it, say before Congress, you know enact something that you know forces the hand, makes them do it for them a little bit of is Congress going to really help the customer? Because you just said look who's using the overdraft and why are they using the overdraft? Another great number is 6% of U. S. Households are unbanked Herbal uh six and that's 14.1 million americans 18.7% are under back. Where are these american studies there going to pity a little letters and shed caches. So if credit unions and banks stop offering over drafted they don't offer alternatives. They're going to go somewhere where it's going to provide that need, that the customer is looking for and that just creates this vicious cycle because you know, let's come back to this common enemy. Money is stressful. Money is confusing. Money is frustrating, money is overwhelming and this stress, I'm telling you this stress, this financial stress is the nest, next epidemic that we're going to see. But it is going to be a silent epidemic because we're only going to see the results of what is coming from this TD bank did a study found that 85% of people now are feeling some sort of...

...financial stress and I forget the Fintech who did another, another study, People are feeling stressed within the last 30 days. They're literally losing sleep. I mean it is, it is, it's an opportunity to, to once again to rally together as a community. And I'm just curious to get your take on this. Why might combating this financial stress and overdrafts to play into this, this, this common enemy. Why could this be a way to inspire financial brands to really maximize their future digital growth potential by not making it about them, But by making it about other people, right? And you focus on digital growth and when we look at what digital growth is supposed to be, it's supposed to be truly give the customer in the digital age what they need and what they want this. Obviously there's two different factors that we just hit. Um, both of both of those factors, they need the financial, they need financial relationships. They need to be able to manage their accounts. We talk about deposits and withdraws, but there's a much bigger financial future to all of these people. So they have to have uh savings accounts checking accounts, retirement accounts loans and mortgages and everything else. And if we don't find a way for everyone to come together and all of this, you're gonna lose what the foundation of what our financial infrastructure was all about. Index come up because the banks or credit unions aren't supplying the needs vacuum. Right? All right. You're looking around saying this. I used to use the example and it's still one of my favorites is Ahmanson who was was home savings alone. Used to build these monument branches massive sizes because people felt safe when you walked in. Their their fault size was exactly the same size as everybody else. But why was it? Because this is what my money, This is my livelihood. This is how I feed my family. You don't find ways to provide the services that they're looking for the, the compassion through a digital age. How do you offer compassion through a digital age? And that's why if you can come together and find a medium, a place where we can come together, you're going to be, that's the most, the foundation of our industry will survive. And it will prosper in a little bit bigger and and it will get bigger because we're making the futures of other people even bigger better brighter. And we're seeing for example, Ally Bank, they've eliminated overdraft. PNC has this new low cash mode giving customers a 24 hour grace period to prevent overdrafts before fees are charged. Hunting the bank has launched standby cash to digital only loan product. What other movement are you seeing from, from financial brands to really position around eliminating or even what I would call optimizing the overdraft experience. And how are consumers responding to some of this? Because some of its marketing to...

...positioning right? Some of its marketing. For example, PNC is a limited account. You have to apply for it. You have to have to be in a certain sector of it. And once you're in that category, then you provided the service. Whereas, um, and even if even if it's difficult hunting some bank example, you still have to apply for. You have to be in a certain category. And you said it earlier. But look at the look at the people that are over drafting the most. Are they necessarily going to be in that category? We had a great conversation and I'll get to go back to the answer, but we had a great with one of the largest advocacy groups in the country and it was a consumer action and they said that low to moderate income people do zero budget, zero budget and are technically, I know it's our technology is life changing because it gives that act to them. So what am I seeing that's actually happening is that people are starting to say, okay, we're not gonna charge overdraft using or we're not going, we're gonna, we're gonna give smaller windows to a limited population problem about zero overdraft and sending everything back again. You've exasperated the problem. We're seeing that happen over and over and that goes back to the fight or flight. We're seeing a ton of flight. Very little fight. Very, very little fight and PNC that is a version of fight. Don't get me wrong. That is a version of fight. And we love that category because that flexibility. But what are we seeing other versions of fight? Not much to look at the headlines that you're seeing today, James, it's all about flight. We're not going to do this anymore. We're not going to charge fees anymore. Fine. Okay. We're gonna send everything back. Unfortunately, we don't see a lot. So let's talk about that. This idea because once again, the common villain, the common enemy fight or flight. What are the opportunities for a financial brand to fight alongside in the trenches with their account holders? What do you see some of the biggest opportunities from your perspective here, My biggest opportunity is providing the window giving the same services where people are seeking outside. So the payday loan check cashing industry, we just is about $32 billion 32 billion They anticipate. And we look at this I think was allied market research visit by 2030. It will be a 48 billion that speaks volumes as it says, where are people headed and they're headed? So we need windows, we need control at the institutions, here's how we take the common villain. The institution says, well, we're gonna we're gonna attack the villain together. We're going to take both, take a step back and we're going to say, you know what, how do you want to handle this? And we're gonna let you handle the way you want to be able to handle it. We're gonna give you the controls the mechanisms for you to do it once, once that aspect is put into the industry, once that control is out there, then the bank and the customers to your point, their shoulder to shoulder saying we got this together and no matter what you need, wherever...

...we go, we're going to have that. And then you also offered the access to it. So for example, if I don't have the cash, we can give you a loan on the spot. I don't know if I can give you a loan on this spot, I'll give you a little bit of better terms, the painting back, you've got to be able to say, you know what's the flexibility you need in order to accommodate the needs, as long as we're within our rights, as long as they're reasonable, you know, and we know we're gonna get our money back. We're willing to be there for you because that number for the payday loan check cashing history, which to your point is a common enemy with everybody, regulators, banks and customers alike because the rates are out of control. Digital growth is a journey from good to great. But sometimes this journey can feel confusing, frustrating and overwhelming the good news is you don't have to take this journey alone because now you can join a community of growth minded marketing and sales leaders from financial brands and fin techs who are all learning, collaborating and growing together visit digital growth dot com slash insider to learn more about how you can join the digital growth insider community to maximize your future digital growth potential. Now back to the show you mentioned before, it's not about the fee but I do know there might be some who are listening who have become, shall we say, somewhat addicted to the overdraft. It's a bit of a drug that they've gotten hooked on. What would you recommend for for someone who's listening there, like I agree with what you're saying but how do we empower, encourage them to let go of the past to create the future. This is gonna be a little bit self fulfilling James. So I will say this is a little bit self fulfilling for our double check. How do we take it from a fee to a customer control service charge. So for example if our technology, the customer can control what's actually happened. So for example if I have a stop payment and I lost my checkbook or something happened or I can go to my bank and I got to make a small charge. If I go to an A. T. M. I gotta pay a small service charge. The reason the customers okay with all of these because the customer is choosing to pay the amount of money that's available or whatever they want to do right? So with our technology falls just in line with that let take the we're going to tell you what we're going to charge you and you tell us what we are going to charge you by the service that we are providing to you. So I wanted that stopped paying and I have to pay a fee for a service charge for because I'm choosing even think about the word service charge. It's a service I'm providing you a service. You need something for me. I'm going to give you a service rather than a feat which is almost a penalty itself. But what I'm hearing two from a positive standpoint is control. We're giving people back a...

...sense of agency, a sense of control. They can make choices and I was you know, a kid of the eighties. Always love reading, choose your own adventure books? Oh my God, just brought that up. Yeah. Remember those books now? Here's the thing, dude, like my My kids, I have four kids. 11, 9, 7, 5. None of them. They like they like to read, but none of them like to choose your own adventure books. And I'm just crushed because those are like some even Oregon trail playing Oregon trail and the old Apple computers at school, you got to control the experience. And when we can provide that control, it is a sense of empowerment versus being penalized. Like I'm giving that control back. And so as you look forward towards the future and this has been a great conversation so far. What are you most hopeful for? What are you most excited about when it comes to optimizing, thinking around optimizing for overdrafts for both financial brands as well as for consumers. It's changing how you've always thought about it and choosing a different path. And before I try to look outside and understand the opportunity that's been made available, think outside the box and understand what your customers need and want. So if you I'm excited because the institutions are starting to get their heads around it and I will tell you, you know, there's a lot of besides the legislation that's going on in the world, there's a ton of litigation. There's a class action lawsuits are popping up right and left and they're going after them because they were saying to your point is that, yeah, you may have disclosed it. But were you really acting correct doing what's interesting? Yeah. Yeah. You said we're going to pay this. But did you really do what was the customer is going to want? And it's the thinking that I want to dig into just a little bit as a follow up to your perspective. Because what precedes the thinking like if we're looking at and and and this is a lot of the thinking that I'm doing around thinking for banking on change the next book that I'm writing. But there are, there's, there's some paths like, like predictable paths? It all starts with the belief like the belief system, the belief structure of the self, the, the team, the organization that then influences the thinking. The thinking that informs the actions. The actions then are are the habits and then the habits become the predictable future. And so literally everything. We roll it back to thinking and beliefs here. I'm always interested to know on the flip side of opportunities. What are the big roadblocks that the dear listener who is encouraged? Who is...

...excited alongside you needs to be aware of when it comes to bringing this type of thinking within an organization? What are the roadblocks? What are the challenges that they need to be aware of that they might have to overcome Now the road is the significant roadblocks is it's not just you. So if you're the leadership in your organization, you're thinking overall, you're thinking I've got customers, I've got my teammates. But there's a whole mid layer to your point that our old school that have done things exactly the same way they have done them for so many years. A lot of people don't even know why we've always done them for so long. A great story I have is I was given a task by my old but I was I was working for my old bank. It said one of the impediments that impede what impedes the sales process when opening up an account. It was taking almost an hour and a half to open up. Exactly. So I brought in a bunch of new accounts about managers that we all sat around the road and the first right out of the gate. One of the things of us, oh my God, it takes forever. We have to put in a in every open space. That's it. So if there was a signature, there was five signatures for them had to have all the empty dates, everything. And there was a manual that they had to enter this. So I said, why do we do that? And no one in the room could answer the question, Why do we do that? And that by itself was almost 40 minutes of opening up the account. Every signature card that they had to do. So I went back and I went back to back office, I asked it hope almost two weeks and no one had an answer and of course we eventually got rid of, we didn't have to put in a basin anymore. And that was because it was old thinking. It was the old mentality. Yes. And it's the same way that we've fallen. We don't want to be able to, we don't want to change things. We've always done them because we finally got used to doing something a certain way. So the robot comes in when your team the leadership is that leadership can push and say, hey we're going to do this. It's going to be, it may be a little bit challenging, it's going to change our way of thinking and but at the end of the day it's the right thing to do and that's how whether and by the way this isn't just apply to double check, this applies to every aspect of the banking industry and any business here, yep it and if it's the right thing to do, we can find out a way to make it into a good business which do the right thing is the number eight spot. It's in the number eight spot of what we call our eight elements for exponential growth here at the digital growth institute and do the right thing was inspired by my high school basketball coach coach Carlisle. He beat that into our heads, you could just do the right thing and you talked about change, you know, it can be hard, it can be scary.

It can be a little painful, but I want to get real with one final question here for you to empower the dear listener to Nate to, to take that next best step forward so that they can make progress. And because all change begins with a small, simple step, it's that this massive transformation that happens all at once. It's, it's momentum. It builds. So what is something small, something practical, something simple that they can apply back at their financial brand to move forward to make progress with confidence. This is what our technology in general in general when it comes to overdrafts and thinking about the customer customer experience. The first step is start the conversation about what's right and then engage is this where we're going with engages. So have let's have the conversation. One of the first things we have is we always, we do our demo and we started, we sort of give an outlet. And the first question we always get back as the ancient thoughts that they've had to date now. We start to work through them and say, well, what if we change it? And of course they start going back to where And I want to, I know we're going through the last 20 last questions but overdraft if you think about it creates case for items that are going to be returned or sent back or was it going to happen and when you and I eat some years ago and assess an overdraft and they still are in crimes in every single state, but it was a penalty. It was almost you were you were perceived as not a good customer. Now today you're perceived as an extremely profitable customers. So the whole change of thought is, let's see how we can change how we think about these customers also. And this goes back in the history. So, well that's hardwood floors. If you have hardwood floors were considered in the 19 twenties, you were considered to be poor, carpet was rich. Now look today, carpet is hardwood floors are considered rich and carpet lobster used to be a poor man's. Now it's now it's considered a wealthy food when you used to go to the theater. If you sat below, you are considered to be part of the commoners and the upper people. Now it's all stopped. So we start to change how you see things and how they perceive you realize, oh my goodness! Is the value really down below in the theater? Or is it really up about? Because I really want to see the show. I want to be closer to it. What's more important to the person actually seeing the show. So at that open that conversation up. It's been that way for a long time. Let's open up the conversation to see, wait a second. We've always done it. We can think of in a different way. I really like that because in my mind I'm visualizing a glass or a bottle and through these conversations you can take someone and remove them from being stuck inside the bottle, walk them around the outside of...

...the bottle, ask probing questions. And so you know, in these types of conversations, what should the questions they ask? What should they be asking? What should they be thinking about? Two to just look at things from a different light from a different lens, from a different angle. First I'm gonna say, I'm like a time if you've got branches don't stop, don't start and stop at corporate, bring in your front line and then ask the questions. How do your customers feel when this is because we always go call your tellers, go call your supervisors, go call the people that are touching your customers every single day and involve them into the conversation. I'm gonna I'm gonna add on to that thought because once again, I I hear patterns from so many people, I'm predicting that 2022 I like to give themes two years because themes give meaning 2022 is going to be the year of collaboration and what I mean by collaboration collaboration, internally collaboration. Externally. But from an internal perspective collaboration comes by going on and I think I learned this. It was from Derek Sutton, over at auto books and I've even heard Geoffrey Kendall over at Nimbus, go on a listening tour, go on a listening tour to talk to your people, talk to the front lines who are in the trenches, fighting the common enemy alongside your account holders, your customers, your members and you do that by going all in asking good questions, listening and then also learning through observation. So what are the questions that that that the dear listener, very practical, that they may be one or two questions that they can just take and have these conversations around here? One question is, what is the biggest if, what would be if you had your ideal situation? How would you handle as it relates to overdraft. NSF, what tool would you like to be able to provide to your customers because of the way they consider their customers. What tool would you like to provide to your customers, what would they like to be able to have? And by the way, this is just a small business and consumers. I know we talk a lot about consumers, but small businesses as well as their huge what tools would you like to be on that? What's your what's your biggest pain point as it relates to dealing with these situations. So part of our technology empowers to tell it. So he tell her what I felt I was in banking is that there was an overdraft on NSF event took an hour, an hour and a half. What is your biggest payment? I gotta call supervisors, supervisors that are called back office. Back office has to give me the, okay I have to give it time. I have to imagine you're taking that much windows. So what is the biggest pain point? What tool would you want to have in order to relinquish yourself of that pain point? What can I provide to another question is what do you, how do you feel every time you go...

...through one of these experiences feeling is incredibly important. If you meet somebody they may not remember, they may not remember what you said but they will always remember how you made them feel. What is that feeling like? Not just on your customer cycle. What is your tell her what is your team? What is your what's the morale when something hits it And I will tell you it will it first your soul because they empathize one way or another on that other side they're feeling oh my goodness, that could have been me. That could have been that situation. Anyway, so that's what I that's what I asked. How do you feel when these things happen, Joel. I really appreciate the thinking here because I literally just posted this this morning and I'm reading verbatim. This is a reply to Renee Newman and we were having a conversation on linked in and I've been doing a lot of thinking and a lot of riding around what I call heart centered thinking, heart centered thinking because that is key to what I call human centered growth otherwise and I think you know when you think about the banking space it's got a lot of really smart left brain driven analytical people, what is all about the numbers, but then you, you step outside of that, you go into the right bright brain of the consumer people shop, they buy with their heart and you're right, people are going to remember how you made them feel and that is key to every single experience, Joel, I appreciate your knowledge, your perspective, your passion, if someone is listening, they want to continue the conversation, the collaboration that we begin together today, what is the best way for them to reach out, say hello to you me personally, Joel Schwartz, Joel, J O E L dot Schwartz, S C H W A R T Z at my double check dot com and of course our website is my double check dot com. That's the easiest way to get a hold of me and this was incredible. We have gone on for hours about this, we definitely welled up about, I love the customers, I love the financial institutions, I love the industry that we get to work and I love what you're doing. Well, Joel, thank you for the kind words and you know we do, we work, we have such a noble calling I believe as an industry and it doesn't matter if you work at a financial brand, a bank or credit or are at a Martek sells tech fintech or you're you're an advisor. We're all working to fight this common enemy of financial stress that is taking a toll on people's lives. So Joel thank you, thank you for your passion. Thank you for your perspective. Thank you for joining me for another episode of banking on digital growth. Thank you very much for having me. I appreciate as always until next time be...

...well do good and make your bed. Thank you for listening to another episode of banking on digital growth with James robert leg to get even more practical and proven insights along with coaching and guidance, visit digital growth dot com slash insider to join a community of growth minded marketing and sales leaders from financial brands and finn tax until next time be well and do good. Yeah. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah.

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