Banking on Digital Growth
Banking on Digital Growth

Episode · 1 month ago

148) #ExponentialInsights: Overdrafts: It’s Really Not About Fees (Really!)

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Let these numbers frighten you a little bit:

-6% of U.S. households are unbankable and 18.7% are underbanked

-The payday loan check cashing industry is about $32 billion

-9% of bank account holders pay 84% of the $11 billion in annual overdraft fees

It’s no wonder that overdrafts are the common enemy that financial brands need to vanquish.

In this episode, I speak with Joel Schwartz, Founder & Co-CEO at DoubleCheck Solutions, about the need to give consumers what they need (financial relationships) and what they want (financial flexibility and control):

Join us as we discuss:

- Why overdrafts are such a hot topic at this moment

- It’s customer control that’s the issue, not overdraft fees

- Digital growth opportunities for offering compassion

- Updating old-fashioned mindsets about banking services

- Why doing the right thing is good business

You can find this interview and many more by subscribing to Banking on Digital Growth on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, or here.

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for Banking on Digital Growth in your favorite podcast player.

...where are these americans going there?Going to pity a little letters and shed caches. So if credit unions and banksstop offering over drafted, they don't offer alternatives. They're going to gosomewhere where it's going to provide that need. You're listening to banking on digitalgrowth with James robert lay a podcast that empowers financial brand marketing,sales and leadership teams to maximize their digital growth potential bygenerating 10 times more loans and deposits. Today's episode is part ofthe exponential insight series where James robert ley interviews theindustry's top marketing sales and fin tech leaders sharing practical wisdomto exponentially elevate you and your team. Let's get into the show greetingsand hello I am James robert ley and welcome to the 148th episode of theBanking on digital growth podcast. Today's episode is part of theexponential insight series and I'm excited to welcome Joel Schwartz to theshow, Joel is the founder and co chief executive officer at double checksolutions, financial technology company, generating revenue for financial brandsby giving consumers and small businesses more transparency andcontrol by calming the confusion and chaos of non sufficient funds andoverdrafts. Welcome to the show, Joel. It is so good to have you on todaybuddy. Thank you James, I'm excited to be here before we get into this greatconversation and an important one that is impacting so many different lives.Doesn't matter if you're a consumer. It doesn't matter if you're a smallbusiness before we get there? I always like to start off on a positive note,what is one good thing that's been happening for you. What are you mostexcited about right now personally, professionally it is always your pickpersonally. My daughter just started at U. C. Irvine, my son's back in schoolenjoying life professionally, a patent issued it last month for our technology.So we get to own the sector has been incredible, incredible and company isdoing extremely well. Have incredible team. That's probably if I had you bothscores and give them both nines and you can get 10 yet is because you neverknow what's around before. It's exactly right. You always want to have thatlittle bit of room to do something even better to optimize, to take it to thenext level to grow from good to great. That's right. Make that night evenstronger than What does that look like? What does that 10 feel like that evenfor that small moment. Turn it what what was it? Uh turn it up to 11. Therewas a there was a movie with the amP, we're gonna turn it up to 11 and it wasit was kind of a parody. I can't, it was a rock n roll movie. I cannot thinkof what it was, but you want to, you want to crank it up to how can youcrank it up a lot of than a 10 because you put in 11 on the amp and since youturn it up to make it a level 11. So let's create, let's let's exactly,let's crank it up today. Um When it...

...comes to the work that you're doing theimportant work the meaningful work. Because according to an american bankerarticle, PNC PNC found that overdrafts have been the number one pain point.The number one aggravation for customers for consumers. And Voxreported between March 13 2020 and september 2021 account holders filedover 1600 complaints against various banks to the C. F. P. B. Aboutoverdraft fees. I'm curious. I want to get your take on this. Why areoverdrafts becoming such a hot topic now? Maybe even a flash point. Let'screated this environment. What's created this buzz? Yeah it's almost theperfect storm one is we've had a complete change in political climate.So what's the consumer protection side has never been larger and higher andmore focused. And let's let's also look at our situation, we just came or stillin covid actually but we're just coming off the higher coded where thegovernment was giving up trillions of dollars just to keep people afloat. Sothe dollars, everything, every dollar that was being collected by whether itwas the low to moderate income or individuals, everything has a biggerfocus on. So it's not just the complaints what people are complainingabout and then the complaints and that rolls over to the dollar numbers andthe dollar numbers are well why are you charging so much? It doesn't really getto the root of it. It's 100% the perfect storm of events are takingplace, which is why our technology has become so you know, it's always beenneeded out there, but it could never and has never been more reality. It is,it is the perfect storm. It's a lot of these different factors, elementshitting all at once. And we've been seeing some optimization aroundoverdraft, you know, happening for the past few years in the fintech space forexample, chime, they have spot me covers customers who overdraw, you know,as much as $200 past their mouth in there, A cow, we got varo varo whocovers transactions up to $50 over users balance and both, you know, chimeand some of these others they're targeting a millennial and a really agen Z demographic when it comes to the pain of overdraft. What can we reallybe aware of? What can the financial brand, What can the dear listener beaware of when it comes to evolving customer expectations in this spacehere because there are things that are happening and moving pretty quickly.Yeah, well technology obviously alliance, all those china, you justmentioned office of technology advantage and there's the gen Z andwhat we're going after formal millennials I guess, but they wantservice and they want service particularly. Now time has said, we'renot going to charge for certain ways we're going to give you an extra $50we're going to pay it off. And even time it goes back to an overdraft.Initially started out the overdraft...

...intent was to pay a certain amount ofitems to cover it and rather than the item actually leaving them. So theexpectation is how do I continue to give service the way my customerdemands, I get my service. And if my bank, my local bank is going to give itto me the way I want it or as time gonna offer it and each one of themoffers a unique benefit. And as it relates to overdraft, how do I get whenI have a problem? And I know this is the whole topic of our conversation andwe'll get over and over. How do I get the access and control that I want atthe time that I actually want. Right, well, I think that's that's animportant point. Let's dive deeper into that because I always find that if wecan Number one identify number to name a common enemy, we have the ability tocreate a community around defeating that common enemy and in thisparticular case, the common enemy, the villain of our story today, ournarrative is a overdraft. Yes. Mhm. What are the opportunities. But beforewe get to the, before we get to opportunities? I want to, I don't knowwhere you're going with this by the way. I love love where you're going withthis. I want to take it, take it a little bit of a different path beforeyou to the opportunities because we're speaking about a common enemy, theoverdraft. We're speaking about a villain. What is a common belief? Let'stake an inside out point of view here from the mind of a financial brandleader. What is a common belief that a financial brand leader might havearound overdrafts that you just disagree with? That is the biggestmisconception that it's about. Maybe sometimes it's the cost of the, butthey think it's about the future And when you realize it's not about that.So my history and I get a little bit of my background here too. I came from thebanking industry and worked in banking for almost 20 years And how I thoughtof what double check actually does was hearing what my customers were actuallyyelling and screaming about and the misconceptions both I had to pay $35 or$70 and feast now that that really wasn't the problem if you really hurtbut they're yelling, do you realize what just happened to me? You know Inow have late fees. Uh my my mortgage company is nagging me, I took a50-point hit on my credit because you didn't give me a call back and thecustomer was saying why didn't you let me know what was actually happening. Sowhat they needed was they needed access, they needed flexibility, they neededcontrol of what was actually happening. So when you see these institutions outthere saying, oh, we're going to get rid of our overdraft fees, we're gonnawe're not gonna do it. What are you really doing? What you're doing isyou're exasperated. The problem. Right. I have a I think I thought of actuallysomething earlier. It was a flight or...

...fight and the flight or fight ofoverdrafts and it's the first time I've ever meant it, which would be on thispodcast. But I think we're gonna start using more often is what do you want todo as an institution? So you're the misconception. So I, well, we'recharging thieves and what we'll do is we'll stop charging them all together.Okay, Well then that means that's the flight, you're going to leave yourcustomers and you're going to see you know what we're going to sendeverything back, but we're not gonna charge you anymore. And we're going toturn our backs on. Who that should be saying is we're going to fight for ourcustomers and we're going to give them the service, we're going to give themthe control, we're going to give them the access that they want and that'sthe decision institution has to make. So if your perception is all we're justgonna get rid of overdraft fees. No, no, no, that's not what it's all about. SoI think that's the biggest misconceptions about how about the fees?No, some institutions have lowered it and I give them enough that they shouldbe doing because there could be an affordability aspect. Well and I thinkthis idea of fight or flight coming back to this idea of a common villainhere is when we think about overdraft and you look at the data it reallydisproportionately hurts the lower income consumer who really needs theprotection the most. We look at a study from the center for responsible lendingin 2020 and they found that 9% of bank account holders pay 84% Of more than 11billion and overdraft fees collected every year. And and and now is the timelike you said the perfect storm the common enemy? The villain. Why shouldfinancial brands be thinking about revamping overdraft policies now beforethey're forced to do it, say before Congress, you know enact something thatyou know forces the hand, makes them do it for them a little bit of is Congressgoing to really help the customer? Because you just said look who's usingthe overdraft and why are they using the overdraft? Another great number is6% of U. S. Households are unbanked Herbal uh six and that's 14.1 millionamericans 18.7% are under back. Where are these american studies there goingto pity a little letters and shed caches. So if credit unions and banksstop offering over drafted they don't offer alternatives. They're going to gosomewhere where it's going to provide that need, that the customer is lookingfor and that just creates this vicious cycle because you know, let's come backto this common enemy. Money is stressful. Money is confusing. Money isfrustrating, money is overwhelming and this stress, I'm telling you thisstress, this financial stress is the nest, next epidemic that we're going tosee. But it is going to be a silent epidemic because we're only going tosee the results of what is coming from this TD bank did a study found that 85%of people now are feeling some sort of...

...financial stress and I forget theFintech who did another, another study, People are feeling stressed within thelast 30 days. They're literally losing sleep. I mean it is, it is, it's anopportunity to, to once again to rally together as a community. And I'm justcurious to get your take on this. Why might combating this financial stressand overdrafts to play into this, this, this common enemy. Why could this be away to inspire financial brands to really maximize their future digitalgrowth potential by not making it about them, But by making it about otherpeople, right? And you focus on digital growth and when we look at what digitalgrowth is supposed to be, it's supposed to be truly give the customer in thedigital age what they need and what they want this. Obviously there's twodifferent factors that we just hit. Um, both of both of those factors, theyneed the financial, they need financial relationships. They need to be able tomanage their accounts. We talk about deposits and withdraws, but there's amuch bigger financial future to all of these people. So they have to have uhsavings accounts checking accounts, retirement accounts loans and mortgagesand everything else. And if we don't find a way for everyone to cometogether and all of this, you're gonna lose what the foundation of what ourfinancial infrastructure was all about. Index come up because the banks orcredit unions aren't supplying the needs vacuum. Right? All right. You'relooking around saying this. I used to use the example and it's still one ofmy favorites is Ahmanson who was was home savings alone. Used to build thesemonument branches massive sizes because people felt safe when you walked in.Their their fault size was exactly the same size as everybody else. But whywas it? Because this is what my money, This is my livelihood. This is how Ifeed my family. You don't find ways to provide the services that they'relooking for the, the compassion through a digital age. How do you offercompassion through a digital age? And that's why if you can come together andfind a medium, a place where we can come together, you're going to be,that's the most, the foundation of our industry will survive. And it willprosper in a little bit bigger and and it will get bigger because we're makingthe futures of other people even bigger better brighter. And we're seeing forexample, Ally Bank, they've eliminated overdraft. PNC has this new low cashmode giving customers a 24 hour grace period to prevent overdrafts beforefees are charged. Hunting the bank has launched standby cash to digital onlyloan product. What other movement are you seeing from, from financial brandsto really position around eliminating or even what I would call optimizingthe overdraft experience. And how are consumers responding to some of this?Because some of its marketing to...

...positioning right? Some of itsmarketing. For example, PNC is a limited account. You have to apply forit. You have to have to be in a certain sector of it. And once you're in thatcategory, then you provided the service. Whereas, um, and even if even if it'sdifficult hunting some bank example, you still have to apply for. You haveto be in a certain category. And you said it earlier. But look at the lookat the people that are over drafting the most. Are they necessarily going tobe in that category? We had a great conversation and I'll get to go back tothe answer, but we had a great with one of the largest advocacy groups in thecountry and it was a consumer action and they said that low to moderateincome people do zero budget, zero budget and are technically, I know it'sour technology is life changing because it gives that act to them. So what am Iseeing that's actually happening is that people are starting to say, okay,we're not gonna charge overdraft using or we're not going, we're gonna, we'regonna give smaller windows to a limited population problem about zero overdraftand sending everything back again. You've exasperated the problem. We'reseeing that happen over and over and that goes back to the fight or flight.We're seeing a ton of flight. Very little fight. Very, very little fightand PNC that is a version of fight. Don't get me wrong. That is a versionof fight. And we love that category because that flexibility. But what arewe seeing other versions of fight? Not much to look at the headlines thatyou're seeing today, James, it's all about flight. We're not going to dothis anymore. We're not going to charge fees anymore. Fine. Okay. We're gonnasend everything back. Unfortunately, we don't see a lot. So let's talk aboutthat. This idea because once again, the common villain, the common enemy fightor flight. What are the opportunities for a financial brand to fightalongside in the trenches with their account holders? What do you see someof the biggest opportunities from your perspective here, My biggestopportunity is providing the window giving the same services where peopleare seeking outside. So the payday loan check cashing industry, we just isabout $32 billion 32 billion They anticipate. And we look at this I thinkwas allied market research visit by 2030. It will be a 48 billion thatspeaks volumes as it says, where are people headed and they're headed? So weneed windows, we need control at the institutions, here's how we take thecommon villain. The institution says, well, we're gonna we're gonna attackthe villain together. We're going to take both, take a step back and we'regoing to say, you know what, how do you want to handle this? And we're gonnalet you handle the way you want to be able to handle it. We're gonna give youthe controls the mechanisms for you to do it once, once that aspect is putinto the industry, once that control is out there, then the bank and thecustomers to your point, their shoulder to shoulder saying we got this togetherand no matter what you need, wherever...

...we go, we're going to have that. Andthen you also offered the access to it. So for example, if I don't have thecash, we can give you a loan on the spot. I don't know if I can give you aloan on this spot, I'll give you a little bit of better terms, thepainting back, you've got to be able to say, you know what's the flexibilityyou need in order to accommodate the needs, as long as we're within ourrights, as long as they're reasonable, you know, and we know we're gonna getour money back. We're willing to be there for you because that number forthe payday loan check cashing history, which to your point is a common enemywith everybody, regulators, banks and customers alike because the rates areout of control. Digital growth is a journey from good to great. Butsometimes this journey can feel confusing, frustrating and overwhelmingthe good news is you don't have to take this journey alone because now you canjoin a community of growth minded marketing and sales leaders fromfinancial brands and fin techs who are all learning, collaborating and growingtogether visit digital growth dot com slash insider to learn more about howyou can join the digital growth insider community to maximize your futuredigital growth potential. Now back to the show you mentioned before, it's notabout the fee but I do know there might be some who are listening who havebecome, shall we say, somewhat addicted to the overdraft. It's a bit of a drugthat they've gotten hooked on. What would you recommend for for someonewho's listening there, like I agree with what you're saying but how do weempower, encourage them to let go of the past to create the future. This isgonna be a little bit self fulfilling James. So I will say this is a littlebit self fulfilling for our double check. How do we take it from a fee toa customer control service charge. So for example if our technology, thecustomer can control what's actually happened. So for example if I have astop payment and I lost my checkbook or something happened or I can go to mybank and I got to make a small charge. If I go to an A. T. M. I gotta pay asmall service charge. The reason the customers okay with all of thesebecause the customer is choosing to pay the amount of money that's available orwhatever they want to do right? So with our technology falls just in line withthat let take the we're going to tell you what we're going to charge you andyou tell us what we are going to charge you by the service that we areproviding to you. So I wanted that stopped paying and I have to pay a feefor a service charge for because I'm choosing even think about the wordservice charge. It's a service I'm providing you a service. You needsomething for me. I'm going to give you a service rather than a feat which isalmost a penalty itself. But what I'm hearing two from a positive standpointis control. We're giving people back a...

...sense of agency, a sense of control.They can make choices and I was you know, a kid of the eighties. Alwayslove reading, choose your own adventure books? Oh my God, just brought that up.Yeah. Remember those books now? Here's the thing, dude, like my My kids, Ihave four kids. 11, 9, 7, 5. None of them. They like they like to read, butnone of them like to choose your own adventure books. And I'm just crushedbecause those are like some even Oregon trail playing Oregon trail and the oldApple computers at school, you got to control the experience. And when we canprovide that control, it is a sense of empowerment versus being penalized.Like I'm giving that control back. And so as you look forward towards thefuture and this has been a great conversation so far. What are you mosthopeful for? What are you most excited about when it comes to optimizing,thinking around optimizing for overdrafts for both financial brands aswell as for consumers. It's changing how you've always thought about it andchoosing a different path. And before I try to look outside and understand theopportunity that's been made available, think outside the box and understandwhat your customers need and want. So if you I'm excited because theinstitutions are starting to get their heads around it and I will tell you,you know, there's a lot of besides the legislation that's going on in theworld, there's a ton of litigation. There's a class action lawsuits arepopping up right and left and they're going after them because they weresaying to your point is that, yeah, you may have disclosed it. But were youreally acting correct doing what's interesting? Yeah. Yeah. You said we'regoing to pay this. But did you really do what was the customer is going towant? And it's the thinking that I want to dig into just a little bit as afollow up to your perspective. Because what precedes the thinking like ifwe're looking at and and and this is a lot of the thinking that I'm doingaround thinking for banking on change the next book that I'm writing. Butthere are, there's, there's some paths like, like predictable paths? It allstarts with the belief like the belief system, the belief structure of theself, the, the team, the organization that then influences the thinking. Thethinking that informs the actions. The actions then are are the habits andthen the habits become the predictable future. And so literally everything. Weroll it back to thinking and beliefs here. I'm always interested to know onthe flip side of opportunities. What are the big roadblocks that the dearlistener who is encouraged? Who is...

...excited alongside you needs to be awareof when it comes to bringing this type of thinking within an organization?What are the roadblocks? What are the challenges that they need to be awareof that they might have to overcome Now the road is the significant roadblocksis it's not just you. So if you're the leadership in your organization, you'rethinking overall, you're thinking I've got customers, I've got my teammates.But there's a whole mid layer to your point that our old school that havedone things exactly the same way they have done them for so many years. A lotof people don't even know why we've always done them for so long. A greatstory I have is I was given a task by my old but I was I was working for myold bank. It said one of the impediments that impede what impedesthe sales process when opening up an account. It was taking almost an hourand a half to open up. Exactly. So I brought in a bunch of new accountsabout managers that we all sat around the road and the first right out of thegate. One of the things of us, oh my God, it takes forever. We have to putin a in every open space. That's it. So if there was a signature, there wasfive signatures for them had to have all the empty dates, everything. Andthere was a manual that they had to enter this. So I said, why do we dothat? And no one in the room could answer the question, Why do we do that?And that by itself was almost 40 minutes of opening up the account.Every signature card that they had to do. So I went back and I went back toback office, I asked it hope almost two weeks and no one had an answer and ofcourse we eventually got rid of, we didn't have to put in a basin anymore.And that was because it was old thinking. It was the old mentality. Yes.And it's the same way that we've fallen. We don't want to be able to, we don'twant to change things. We've always done them because we finally got usedto doing something a certain way. So the robot comes in when your team theleadership is that leadership can push and say, hey we're going to do this.It's going to be, it may be a little bit challenging, it's going to changeour way of thinking and but at the end of the day it's the right thing to doand that's how whether and by the way this isn't just apply to double check,this applies to every aspect of the banking industry and any business here,yep it and if it's the right thing to do, we can find out a way to make itinto a good business which do the right thing is the number eight spot. It's inthe number eight spot of what we call our eight elements for exponentialgrowth here at the digital growth institute and do the right thing wasinspired by my high school basketball coach coach Carlisle. He beat that intoour heads, you could just do the right thing and you talked about change, youknow, it can be hard, it can be scary.

It can be a little painful, but I wantto get real with one final question here for you to empower the dearlistener to Nate to, to take that next best step forward so that they can makeprogress. And because all change begins with a small, simple step, it's thatthis massive transformation that happens all at once. It's, it'smomentum. It builds. So what is something small, something practical,something simple that they can apply back at their financial brand to moveforward to make progress with confidence. This is what our technologyin general in general when it comes to overdrafts and thinking about thecustomer customer experience. The first step is start the conversation aboutwhat's right and then engage is this where we're going with engages. So havelet's have the conversation. One of the first things we have is we always, wedo our demo and we started, we sort of give an outlet. And the first questionwe always get back as the ancient thoughts that they've had to date now.We start to work through them and say, well, what if we change it? And ofcourse they start going back to where And I want to, I know we're goingthrough the last 20 last questions but overdraft if you think about it createscase for items that are going to be returned or sent back or was it goingto happen and when you and I eat some years ago and assess an overdraft andthey still are in crimes in every single state, but it was a penalty. Itwas almost you were you were perceived as not a good customer. Now todayyou're perceived as an extremely profitable customers. So the wholechange of thought is, let's see how we can change how we think about thesecustomers also. And this goes back in the history. So, well that's hardwoodfloors. If you have hardwood floors were considered in the 19 twenties, youwere considered to be poor, carpet was rich. Now look today, carpet ishardwood floors are considered rich and carpet lobster used to be a poor man's.Now it's now it's considered a wealthy food when you used to go to the theater.If you sat below, you are considered to be part of the commoners and the upperpeople. Now it's all stopped. So we start to change how you see things andhow they perceive you realize, oh my goodness! Is the value really downbelow in the theater? Or is it really up about? Because I really want to seethe show. I want to be closer to it. What's more important to the personactually seeing the show. So at that open that conversation up. It's beenthat way for a long time. Let's open up the conversation to see, wait a second.We've always done it. We can think of in a different way. I really like thatbecause in my mind I'm visualizing a glass or a bottle and through theseconversations you can take someone and remove them from being stuck inside thebottle, walk them around the outside of...

...the bottle, ask probing questions. Andso you know, in these types of conversations, what should thequestions they ask? What should they be asking? What should they be thinkingabout? Two to just look at things from a different light from a different lens,from a different angle. First I'm gonna say, I'm like a time if you've gotbranches don't stop, don't start and stop at corporate, bring in your frontline and then ask the questions. How do your customers feel when this isbecause we always go call your tellers, go call your supervisors, go call thepeople that are touching your customers every single day and involve them intothe conversation. I'm gonna I'm gonna add on to that thought because onceagain, I I hear patterns from so many people, I'm predicting that 2022 I liketo give themes two years because themes give meaning 2022 is going to be theyear of collaboration and what I mean by collaboration collaboration,internally collaboration. Externally. But from an internal perspectivecollaboration comes by going on and I think I learned this. It was from DerekSutton, over at auto books and I've even heard Geoffrey Kendall over atNimbus, go on a listening tour, go on a listening tour to talk to your people,talk to the front lines who are in the trenches, fighting the common enemyalongside your account holders, your customers, your members and you do thatby going all in asking good questions, listening and then also learningthrough observation. So what are the questions that that that the dearlistener, very practical, that they may be one or two questions that they canjust take and have these conversations around here? One question is, what isthe biggest if, what would be if you had your ideal situation? How would youhandle as it relates to overdraft. NSF, what tool would you like to be able toprovide to your customers because of the way they consider their customers.What tool would you like to provide to your customers, what would they like tobe able to have? And by the way, this is just a small business and consumers.I know we talk a lot about consumers, but small businesses as well as theirhuge what tools would you like to be on that? What's your what's your biggestpain point as it relates to dealing with these situations. So part of ourtechnology empowers to tell it. So he tell her what I felt I was in bankingis that there was an overdraft on NSF event took an hour, an hour and a half.What is your biggest payment? I gotta call supervisors, supervisors that arecalled back office. Back office has to give me the, okay I have to give ittime. I have to imagine you're taking that much windows. So what is thebiggest pain point? What tool would you want to have in order to relinquishyourself of that pain point? What can I provide to another question is what doyou, how do you feel every time you go...

...through one of these experiencesfeeling is incredibly important. If you meet somebody they may not remember,they may not remember what you said but they will always remember how you madethem feel. What is that feeling like? Not just on your customer cycle. Whatis your tell her what is your team? What is your what's the morale whensomething hits it And I will tell you it will it first your soul because theyempathize one way or another on that other side they're feeling oh mygoodness, that could have been me. That could have been that situation. Anyway,so that's what I that's what I asked. How do you feel when these thingshappen, Joel. I really appreciate the thinking here because I literally justposted this this morning and I'm reading verbatim. This is a reply toRenee Newman and we were having a conversation on linked in and I've beendoing a lot of thinking and a lot of riding around what I call heartcentered thinking, heart centered thinking because that is key to what Icall human centered growth otherwise and I think you know when you thinkabout the banking space it's got a lot of really smart left brain drivenanalytical people, what is all about the numbers, but then you, you stepoutside of that, you go into the right bright brain of the consumer peopleshop, they buy with their heart and you're right, people are going toremember how you made them feel and that is key to every single experience,Joel, I appreciate your knowledge, your perspective, your passion, if someoneis listening, they want to continue the conversation, the collaboration that webegin together today, what is the best way for them to reach out, say hello toyou me personally, Joel Schwartz, Joel, J O E L dot Schwartz, S C H W A R T Zat my double check dot com and of course our website is my double checkdot com. That's the easiest way to get a hold of me and this was incredible.We have gone on for hours about this, we definitely welled up about, I lovethe customers, I love the financial institutions, I love the industry thatwe get to work and I love what you're doing. Well, Joel, thank you for thekind words and you know we do, we work, we have such a noble calling I believeas an industry and it doesn't matter if you work at a financial brand, a bankor credit or are at a Martek sells tech fintech or you're you're an advisor.We're all working to fight this common enemy of financial stress that istaking a toll on people's lives. So Joel thank you, thank you for yourpassion. Thank you for your perspective. Thank you for joining me for anotherepisode of banking on digital growth. Thank you very much for having me. Iappreciate as always until next time be...

...well do good and make your bed. Thankyou for listening to another episode of banking on digital growth with Jamesrobert leg to get even more practical and proven insights along with coachingand guidance, visit digital growth dot com slash insider to join a communityof growth minded marketing and sales leaders from financial brands and finntax until next time be well and do good. Yeah. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah.

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