Banking on Digital Growth
Banking on Digital Growth

Episode · 4 months ago

229) #ExponentialInsights - Viewing Open Banking Through a Lens of Abundance


As ease of access to big data becomes widespread, open finance is taking over the industry. 

But what exactly is open finance? And what does its implementation mean for banks, credit unions, fintech, and consumers? 

Jane Barratt (, Chief Advocacy Officer at MX, and Anne Legg (, Founder of THRIVE Strategic Services, both join us to give their valuable insight on open banking and finance. 

Join us as we discuss:

- Opportunities for financial brands to embrace open finance (6:05)

- The four dimensions of open finance (16:47)

- Thinking about the “who” before the “why” with open finance (34:33) 

Check out these resources we mentioned during the podcast:

-Jane Barratt Twitter (

Legg Twitter ( 

-Jane's St. Jude Fundraiser Link (

You can find this interview and many more by subscribing to Banking on Digital Growth on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, or at  

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for Banking on Digital Growth in your favorite podcast player.

Do you know what we want to see? We want to see better outcomes. We want to see someone spending their money and lending from, and banking with and putting the deposits into institutions that fundamentally see them better off. In Place A, this is placed B. you're listening to banking on digital growth with James Robert Lay, a podcast that empowers financial brand marketing, sales and leadership teams to maximize their digital growth potential by generating ten times more loans and deposits. Today's episode is part of the exponential insight series, where James Robert Lay interviews the industry's top marketing, sales and FINTECH leaders, sharing practical wisdom to exponentially elevate you and your team. Let's get into the show readings. In Hello, I am James Robert Lay and welcome to episode to twenty nine of the banking on digital growth podcast. Today's episode is part of the exponential insight series and I'm excited to welcome not just one but two guests to the show. Joining me today is Jane Barrett and a leg. Jane is the Chief Advocacy Officer of M X and a longtime champion of financial strength. In fact, in her role at M X, Jane Works with Government Regulatory Bodies, financial institutions and industry groups to ensure people have secure access to their financial data to improve their financial outcomes. And is the founder of Thrive Strategic Services and an award winning, internationally recognized Credit Union Leader who is leading change via the development of data transformation strategies. She is also the author of big data big climb and you can catch a conversation that I had with and going all the way back to episode twenty three. Y Ka at a times call for human centered design. I'm looking forward to today his conversation with Jane and and because we're going to be demistifying what open banking, open finance open data is, while also exploring some of the biggest opportunities available around open banking, open finance open data for your financial brand to create, capture or capitalize on. Welcome to the show, Jane and and. It is good to share time with you both today. Thank you great to be here. Before we get into talking open banking open finance, I always like to start off on a positive note and I'm curious what is going well for the two of you. I know we're all in good company here as marathon runners. And and on that note, I know Jane, you've you've been training to run the New York marathon with seven other m xers. But but this is not just another marathon right. This is not just another marathon. We many people in the tech industry. No, the CO founder of MX, Brandon do it very much a mission driven leader, an incredible person. He passed away in November last year. So we are running for his favorite charity, which is St Jude, and I'm hoping that anyone that is listening on can can join in sponsor any all of the runners. But we're all training hot, we're all in that very painful stage of ramping up miles. So everything hurts, but we're doing it for the best of causes. You definitely are, and having run marathons before, I do feel your pain and wish you and everyone else nothing but the best for this cause. And it is a good cause indeed. We're going to come back to that as we wrap up a little bit later on in our conversation. And what about you? What's positive in your world? Oh my gosh, this is pretty exciting. The book I wrote big data big climb is now going to be added to the America's Credit Union...

Museum. It's called her story and it's a permanent exhibit of women leaders who impacted the credit union industry. So it's it's a little mind blowing to think that the book I wrote turned into a textbook, turned into now a museum artifact and it's, I'm not gonna say, I pretty much over the Momon over that. It's it's pretty cool, that's awesome. That is and you have definitely had a tremendous journey, you know, over the past couple of years. I'm so excited to see the progress that you have made around the book and all of the other work that you're doing around big data and and I think that's where, you know, our our conversation comes today, because when you think about open banking, when you think about open finance, these are two big strategic topics. They've been getting a lot more buzz throughout the industry and I always want to set some context here for the dear listener to help them gain some clarity, because maybe they've heard the term or the terms open banking open finance, but it might they might be a little bit confused. What what is open baking? What is open finance? Jane? So it's far more simple than what it sounds. Right, data is a proxy for money. Right, you don't have a pile of money at your bank anymore, or you have is ones and Zeros in its data. And the idea of open banking open data is just the idea that people should be able to access and share that data with wherever they want to put their data. Like is it a budgeting up? Is it a loan application? Like the past, the way that the industry grew up was that there was pretty much walls around data. You wanted to get to your money or get to your data, you had to fill in a form, go to a branch and it was considered something that was pretty inaccessible. Now, with modern technology and modern connectivity, it's actually a much safer way for people to access and share their data. Think about where we've come from. May N six, yeah, it was actually N so one year before that, that was the day that Wells Fargo launched the first online banking platform. So we're coming up now on thirty years of online banking, which became mobile banking, which is now digital banking, which is now, you know, the conversation is shifting to open banking open finance. Why? I think the big why? Why would the dear listener want to think about implementing open banking, open finance, open data within their own financial brand? You know, considering the journey that we've taken as an industry over almost the past thirty years, what are the opportunities and that you see available for financial brands to either create or capture in the present moment, as it stands today? Oh my gosh, there's a couple and I kind of want to break them down into sort of the obvious and the not so obvious. And in the obvious part, you know, when we're thinking about having that much data, okay, we are now talking about the increase and the effectiveness of processes and access. Okay, so let's let's unpack that. What does that actually mean? Well, now, one of the big challenges many financial institutions face is how do I get that really quick loan? So I was called kind of the five second loan. You now have the ability to have the five second loan. All right, so that's gonna Reduce Time and all the associated costs. But also, if I have the five second loan. Then I've got and I can't see my finger because this is audio, but I'm doing the swipe and it's the swipe and switch. So now I can actually switch my financial institutions wherever I want, however I want. I'm in control, which allows then, you know, me as in the consumer, but also me as in allowing to have more access and be able to do more amazing powerful things. Specifically, let's talk about inclusion. So you're gonna be able to have additionally really rich data, you...

...know, sources, to provide insights, to be able to figure out how are you going to widen the access of financial products and services to undersplit markets? And then, of course, the final big reason that I can see from the real obvious list here is that to die for analytics. You're now gonna be able to see three sixty everything that's going on. You have the capability to but you're also be able to look up and look down and when you see that for that first time, being able to get that much inside, NASA spaceship looking down on the earth. You're going to be able to build innovations now we're kind of getting those non obvious, you know, benefits do new products and services, being able to understand the member's true financial health and not just in the spot they are right now and doing interventions and figuring how to just but helping them get to where they want to be. This is going to create a new levels of value. The value transactions are going to get very different. And then, on top of that you're now really looking at marketplace collaboration to fit scale and impact. I want to come back to a point and get your take on this, this chain because, and you mentioned something financial health Um and being able to see things different than how we might have been able to see them before, and that provides a lot of clarity for account holders into their own unique situation. And I think if we explore the past of where we've been over almost the past thirty years around online and mobile and digital banking to where we're at today, which which You provided some context for, Jane, as we look ahead towards the future, this idea of financial health, financial well being, financial empowerment, what are the opportunities there that we could consider in the present moment and really begin to create a path forward over the next orders, the next years to come to achieve that future reality. So that's a great question, simply because one thing we don't talk much about is the concept of data insecurity. Right. If your data insecure, it is a fundamental aspect of financial insecurity. You don't know how much money you're ow that you owe, you don't know what interest rates you're paying, you can't see who's reaching into your bank account and pulling out a, you know, a prepaid or a pre authorized bill. If you don't have visibility, then you are again considered data insecure. So at that very first step, especially for members of credit unions that you know, maybe they've had great relationships in the past, but the financial landscape got so complicated. And I love that you pulled out the sort of the well's online banking foundation date mint, sort of the granddaddy of fin techs, that was founded in two thousand seven right. So we're now going back. What's this? And the way that data would be put into mint was through screen scraping. If this was all technology where people would share their user names and passwords and that data would flow into mint, not ideal, not necessarily secure. People didn't have visibility to where their data was going. But people have been doing this for a long time, and so the sort of the latest iteration of data sharing, that is through open banking API s and moving towards open by finance, is a much more secure way and, frankly, going back to the idea of financial strength, which is the MX mission of impairing the world to be financially strong, if you can then get better visibility, you can use the tools that are actually working for you, then that is the path that we see towards a much better future. That's not just about like it's easy to feel good about financial inclusion of financial literacy. Do you know...

...what we want to see? We want to see better outcomes. We want to see someone spending their money and lending from, and banking with and putting their deposits into institutions that fundamentally see them better off in place a versus place B. and this is fantastic for credit unions. They have been so transparent over the years around the nonprofit model and just where the money goes. This is actually kind of ideal for credit unions to embrace this sort of visibility. I like how you connected data insecurity with financial insecurity and there's opportunity here to increase confidence. But but a person's financial confidence is really rooted more deeply into the clarity that they have into their overall financial picture. And and when you think about this idea of a lack of confidence and a lack of clarity that can lead to, particularly from from the Lens of Financial Services, banks credit unions, it leads to lack of commitment, you know, committing to a path, committing to a journey like this. What holds financial brands back from committing to take this path towards open banking, towards open finances, which can create an even bigger, better, brighter future for account holders? I think there's a couple of things, I think kind of just to boil it down, I think really one of it is that proactive position of strategy, understanding that this is strategy, this is a strategic capability you're building and that it has many tentacles. That goes through right. So when we think about this, we're thinking about if we're going to be strategic about this. We go hey, what do we want to accomplish for the member and Jane Just said, look, we want them to have a much better financial life in all aspects. You know, if you really want to save x or you want to achieve such dream like open your own company or what have you, we want to be there to do that. To do that, though, we've got to make sure that is a strategic initiative. That has got to be about my strategy, and when I do that, let me kind of explain those tentacles a little bit. In there, I also need to be thinking about how, as a culture and my consuming data. Where's my data confidence? How do I build in all of that gorgeous data capability because, as I said, you're gonna get these analytics that will give you such insights. But are you prepared for that? Do you have a roadmap and a pathway? So you've got to start out in that strategy first position, and then you've got to be able to prioritize what you can do with what you have. And, most importantly, how are you going to partner to be able to do this in that beautiful, you know, collaborative way to, as you said, make this better, improve our lives and do this? This isn't this is an enterprise play and this is the members and state that you're looking for. Digital growth is a journey from good to great, but sometimes this journey can feel confusing, frustrating and overwhelming. The good news is you don't have to take this journey alone, because now you can in a community of growth minded marketing and sales leaders from financial brands and fin techs who are all learning, collaborating and growing together. VISIT DIGITAL GROWTH DOT com slash insider to learn more about how you can join the digital growth insider community to maximize your future digital growth potential. Now back to the show. This idea of business strategy. It is a it has come up in a couple of conversations with financial brands that are in the banking on Digital Growth Training and coaching program that they're starting to, for lack of a better word, see the light, they're connecting the dots that this is not just um something that we pass off to technology. Because, back to your point, and when you have that strategic roadmap that provides clarity and a path forward beyond the present state. I want to stay just for a bit with you, Jane, on potential roadblocks, um potential challenges in the present moment that could in fact actually be...

...rooted in the past, that we're just not aware of right now that can hold financial brands back from from making progress going forward. I mean, and highlighted this beautifully, is that this often gets interpreted as a technology challenge versus a business challenge. And you know, we always talk about, and we have a whole team of people at mx who are experts and open banking and open finance, and they spent all day every day in boardrooms with whether it's digital bankers, whether it's a risk folk, whether it's a C suite, whether it's the board, and the conversation really kind of goes around four key dimensions. There is the technology side and honestly, that's often one of the biggest roadblocks. The smaller the institution, the more reliance they have on third parties, and those third parties have not necessarily been fast to the table with open banking solutions. So they're looking at a very hefty tech stack and, frankly, a very hefty tech bill, saying Oh, this is just one more thing that I've got to do, versus this is something that's transformative for the business. So that technology is the first to mention. The customer experience we talked about is the second dimension. In. It usually gets the digital bankers excited. It's like, oh, so it's not just about data out, we should be thinking about data in. And now we can see three sixty on both sides. Okay, that's cool. Um, there is the regulatory inevitability, and I'm sure we'll get to that, but this is not like a just we're all going to figure this out forever and take your time. At some point there will be some sort of regulatory oversight directly related to secure data sharing. So, carrodol stick, you want to move ahead of it and be strategic, but honestly, the piece where we get the most resonance and impact is on competitive advantage. If you have an old screen script methodology of you don't even like, all you know is that there's a ton of pressure on your system because all these pots are coming in and screen scraping you because you'reustomers or members are sharing their data. That is not like. That's five percent of it. Where the competitive advantages is, as Ann said, in insights, that you can see what's going on with your customers. It is going from what is a crappy dial up internet experience to a high frame via speed WIFI experience. For your customers. But best of all, like it's kind of a land grab ran the biggest institutions and, frankly, some of the smaller ones, have set up these what we call or Apis that are fantastic next generation technology and they're reaping the rewards already. And we have seen with some of our partners that we have data sharing agreements with. They are seeing retention go up, they are seeing deposits go up. The biggest fear to your question, is our customers are going to leave, if we make it easy for them to leave, our members will leave. Guess what we're seeing? We're seeing the opposite. We're seeing more digitally engaged people who are actually, you know, interacting with their money in a much more modern and positive way. Yeah, and it's that idea of we're scared that people are going to leave, that look you're you're viewing the world through a lens of scarcity, where the opportunity is to start viewing this through a lens of abundance. And I liked your your note on competitive advantage and your analogy about dial up, because if you think about, you know, may eighth, that's how we connected to the Internet back then. And then you flash forward to twelve years to two thousand seven, with your mit example, we were starting to get mass adoption of broadband. Um and, but, but I think the big transformation that happened at that point. What else happened in two thousand seven? Steve Jobs walked onto the stage and he launched the IPHONE. So now that was really the year that money became mobile. And when you think about this competitive advantage of insight back to and what you're sharing,...

...there's an opportunity to take a truly proactive stance in a person's financial life, to to move beyond being reactive and waiting for people to raise their hand and say I need help, I have a problem, because odds are it's probably a little too late at that point. But now we can provide proactive recommendations to guide them beyond where they're confused the complexity, the inherent complexity, the high cognitive load of money. And step by step, you know, for thinking about marathons here. How do you train for a marathon? One step at a time? You just don't. It's that it's that couch to marathon. It's couch to five K for a reason. Um, but I want to come back to something that you noted here. UH, Jane, you mentioned the Regulatory Front Um and I want to get your take on this and then pass it over to Anne. What are you hearing? What are you seeing on the regulatory front, because I think, like you said, it's a land grab. I kind of feel like you know, you know was web one point Oh. Two Thousand Seven was web two point Oh. We're on the precipice now of Web Three Point Oh. It's all everything's kind of like coming together at a certain point in time. But then there's this regulatory front that we have to be thinking about in financial services. What's your take on that, Jane? So convergency is absolutely the right word, because we could look at this in a narrow perspective. You know, there is dodd frank ten thirty three. That is specifically around data sharing, and the industry is argued about that for twelve years now as to what that is. So we expect the CEEFPB to be issuing a role next year that will provide more clarity and more guidance and we anticipate groups like ours will become under regulatory overside, which we completely welcome. We think that if you're entrusted with customers data, there should be overside. So but then, as you sort of widen the lens out that there's a lot going on in privacy, there's a lot going on in big tech. I mean we have been extremely fortunate in the US and that we have, we have built out an ecosystem of transparency and interoperability that it's actually much easier for the regulators to come in and look over a much broader view of the industry. Right the FD X standard, the financial data exchange. Anyone listening who wants to get involved, this is the industry group that works towards sort of long term interoperability. Um, we've built out an API aspect that actually already covers many dimensions of open finance. We are so much further ahead than, say, markets like Australia, as much as I'm pound to be Australia, Australia and the UK, where it was really just focused very narrowly on retail banking, like checking and savings account so we've gone all the way up to rewards points and investments accounts and like. Way Broader view of how data can be shared. So the regulators have both an easier and a harder job. Because what I just said about wealth data. Okay, is that Fenra? Is it SEC? Is it the CFPD? Is it the SEC? So you've got all of these different regulatory bodies that are going to have very strong interest. But where it will be regulated and how is also a pretty big part of this. So, you know, do we end up dividing dependent on what sort of the data is? Maybe, but it's it's complicated. I mean I'm very, very positive towards the staffers at the CFPV have been so deeply involved in this issue for so many years. Is that there isn't an educational health to climb like they know just as much as everyone else in the industry and it has been really great to just see the evolution of how they're thinking about this. Because is now...

...we've got angles like big tech. Right, do we want the big tech players to get access to a broad swipe of financial data? Should that be protected? Right? So there's there's a lot of nuance in this Um that the regulators are contemplating and we assume bringing into two roles that are coming out as fast. Yeah, and and on that note, like you said, there's so many different regulatory bodies that are in motion. When it comes to financial services, maybe there's a collaborative opportunity there as well. I do not that there's a collaborative opportunity when it comes to Fintech Um and, you know, incumbent or traditional financial brands to collaborate together. Once again, looking at this from from a view of abundance and collaboration out of scarcity and competition. What are you seeing and hearing on this through your work? And it's funny because, Jane, you just said such a you just, in like very few words, you just laid out this gorgeous, beautiful tapestry, and it is the tapestry because it's it's not where I just am looking at one icon. There is a lot going on in this beautiful tapestry and unfortunately we're not exactly where it's all gonna land. We are certain that there are going to be three things that we have to focus on to engage this and the first one, you just said, data security. Well, you know, credit unions are definitely focused on that and should be, if they're not already on that. Second one is the data privacy. Same thing. They're already doing this. The next pieces you talked about the screen scraping is where does the technology stand? You know, if we look at pretty much the other standard out there that's been regulation, as you pointed out, was UK. You know, UK started really open banking regulation again in that narrow lens in and the UK government is now saying that they expect to have, I think it's sixty percent of all of their banking consumers to be using Um um open making by next year. Right. So if we look at that and we can see, wow, there's a lot of proof points in there, specific typically around the loan processing, the speed of processing, the accuracy, the efficiency the approval. We look at that and we say okay, this is these are proof points. We know here in the United States, if we want to move forward, that we've got to take care of the big three. There the data security, privacy and where we are technology? We know we've got the two. We've been working in for a long time. Technology is where we get that collaborative partnership. That's where looking at our ecosystem, that's where we're saying, hey, how do we collaboratively and you know cooperatively, bring all these alments together, because that's where we're gonna have that beautiful scale and impact. We can't do this alone and if we're thinking we're doing this alone, we're very full hearty, I think. Just to to add, there's been kind of a single threaded conversation, which is from Bangkok Credit Union to FINTIC. Guess what the big biggest use cases? It's institution to institution and people sharing their data between covered uh financial institutions. So that's that's one thing to call out. There's also intermediaries like it's easy to say fin techs and all Fintechs. But like fin techs, I would say JP Morgan Chase is one of the biggest fintechs out there in terms of their investments in technology and their adoption of, you know, incredible next gent tool. So I think this is a false division between institution and Fintech. That's one. But we're also now seeing incredible adoption almost outside of what you would consider bank, Credit Union or Fintech right like I can mentioned rewards points. We're seeing insurance companies, we're seeing four O one K providers, we're seeing all of these like B two B, two B, two C S. let's just say employer Um solutions engaging with open banking. We're seeing medical providers, you know, standing up a h direct payments. So the horse has long lift the stable around this bank, Credit Union fintech triangle. Yeah, that's a great point and it opens up the entire ecosystem to where it's not just a bank,...'s not just a credit union, it's not just a Fintech. I think about lift, for example. Um, they offer banking services to their drivers. Um. And I think we're gonna see more and more, and it's been a big conversation Um on the podcast around the idea of quote unquote, niche banking, Um, and how retail brands could, you know, possibly open up banking. And I forgot what it was. A big yeah, a big fashion house, and I don't know, it might have been Gucci. I forget who it was, but someone had posted something on Linkedin essentially that, you know, Gucci could easily, you know, pull in over a billion dollars worth of deposits if they were to not just do the the traditional credit card play. But then they start taking start taking deposits and then you're like, why would Gucci have any just in doing that? Brand affinity, and then you're getting to the whole web three point Oh conversation of how does this all play out into other intangibles like N F t s in the metaverse, and I don't want to go down that rabbit hole, but it's just I think these are the things that we should be thinking about because I think brand affinity plays will play, a lot into where we end up, quote unquote, putting our money. But back to your point to start this conversation, that's just ones in Zeros. Money is now data. It's ones in Zeros. And I get this question a lot because because, you know, we've talked about like what is this idea of open banking, open finance, open data? We we've talked about why it's important to really be thinking and considering, not just from a technology since but really from a business strategy. The question that I get a lot through the training coaching I do is that's great, where do we get started? Because now it's like I see the opportunities, what do I do next? So, for the dear listener, Jane, where, where can financial brands get started with this, very practically speaking? So again, there are a number of experts out there and we would strongly recommend that people don't start at step one right. We're just going to contemplate and learn everything we can and talk about everything, because then it will be a multiple year journey. So we have done, and I mean we've done, an open banking readiness assessment which is on our website like that is a great way just to ask what are the questions? Um. Often it is and we've seen institutions go from zero to actually very active in a short amount of time because they've done the call things. WHO's in charge? Let's assign some resource, let's assign some budget, let's make sure this is on our strategic roadmaps, to tgit roadmap, not just the technology roadmap, Um, and then look at and and then look at what the options are. I think there's quite a few places jumping in, going Oh, such and such as a solution list. Just implement that when the options are I mean, there's always to do nothing option and wait for the regulation. We do not recommend that. Um, there are interim options and one of the ways that we engage with a lot of both our customers and other institutions out there is that we will whitelist ips. You're not ready yet. You really only have to whitelist the I P S of say, five six companies out there and you're going to get of your traffic and now you're going to understand, at least at the top level. It's going to into it, it's going to mx, it's it's going to yodally. Right, so you've got this. Okay, now that now we've kind of started to size it. And then you look at the API right itself. So are you going to build it from scratch? Many companies have. You don't need to do that anymore. Right. We have a product called M x access that...

...basically it gets institutions the way there, but this is on you, right. It's still for you as an institution to manage, to manage your on boarding and your labels and things, but you don't need to build it from scratch. Right. So, and there's other solutions out there that will get you again, further past step zero, but really looking at them as alternatives. I mean, obviously we're biased towards it, but we think that institutions should be the one holding the keys to the kingdom. We don't think this should be something you outsource. Yeah, you you mentioned business strategy once again in your thoughts, but as you're talking through, I also think there's a bit of a cultural transformation, that that there's an opportunity here for cultural transformation. I should say because you mentioned you could build it, you could buy it, you could partner on this. Now, Um and you and you touched on the because I think in financial services historically it's like we feel like we have to get to the pent before we're ready to launch it. But that's where this idea of iteration comes into play. We want to pilot, we want to get things out, we want to test, we want to learn, we want to optimize and and that does require a bit of cultural transformation. When we think about where we've been, you know, coming back to that nine example to today. Um M, we we can get stuck. It's like, okay, I'm with you, Jane, but how, how are we going to do this? And I think it's when we think how we're already limiting our potential future growth. When the in in this highly connected digital world, the opportunity is to think who, who do we need to collaborate with? Because the WHO becomes the how, and there's a fantastic book by Dr Benjamin Hardy Organizational psychologist and Dan Sullivan called who, not how, which was written from an entrepreneurial Lens, but I think that same concept of thinking who before how makes a tremendous amount of sense to make make this all reality going forward. What's your take on this end, this idea of thinking who before the how when it comes to open banking, open finance, open data, as a path forward? Absolutely, and I'd like to kind of pull in several threads here and bring them together, specifically from like the crazing space they're looking and always have looked at it should be, if they aren't, that member centric Lens. Right. What are we doing for the member? How are we doing this? And obviously, in in banking it's it's from that user. This is exactly the lens that you'd be thinking about, which is what's the friction your end user has doing business with you? That's something you're already focusing on. So bringing in that, hey, how do I shave culture? Hey, let's take on something you're already looking when I've look and see what is that friction my member or my my user has my customery house, it's going to be around process. So what I'm looking at that I need to say, well, what do I do and how do I fix process? And I'm and I'm now bringing in the threat of how do I need to make this laser focused, how do I make this very incremental and how do I make this doable? All right, so now I'm thinking about my use case and that's kind of where I was bringing all the threads and what am I trying to do? Regardless as an organization, what I'm trying to do is less in friction. So what are those pieces I need to do to do that? This is exactly an example to solve forign that and, as Jane said, if I say great, I want to figure out how less in friction and I opened up and I start getting more insight. I have now just shifted myself just slightly to be able to make those steps to do what to be successful, to be able to have data confidence and data capability in a way that I get it, that works for me as an institution, and that's that WHO and how all kind of... together in that use case. Everybody at the table has to say that's the friction we want to solve for and this is the how. So you've got the WHO, and the how and the use case, and there you haven't bringing it down into the yeah, that's all full circle right there. Because, you know, Jane, the way that that you really helped to frame this up is data insecurity leads to financial insecurity. And as financial brands, you know, if we're truly wanting to guide people beyond the financial stress of of today that they're feeling that's taking a toll on their health, their relationship there, their their overall sense of well being, and get them to a bigger, better, brighter future. Back to your point, and it's about increasing the data confidence that we have to connect it all back together to reduce friction, which you know, Jane. You mentioned your four tenants of technology, of C X, of regular worry and an also competitive advantage. This really does bring it all together as we wrap up here, as we wrap up, one final question, looking ahead towards the future. What are you feeling most hopeful, excited and optimistic about? Jane? You go first. Well, what still gets me up every day and has had for a long time, from founding a Fintech to being a financial educator on Linkedin, learning to know driving the mission at m x, is the fact that we have a what I would consider a once in a lifetime opportunity to reframe the way that people engage with the money and the way that, frankly, companies who in the past have succeeded based on products, sales and sometimes predatory interest rates right. We have a once in a lifetime opportunity to reframe this and if we don't as an industry, I guarantee there will be other players that can stand up and do it. So that's what I am excited and hopeful about. I think there's many, many brilliant people in the industry who have their hearts and minds in the right place in terms of customer outcomes. We just need to shift business strategy and technology strategy to ensure that we get there and we don't hold onto this old world of like share of Wallet is the mark of success, because it's not and it's not sustainable. I have been speaking about the days of the P F, I that idea of share of wallet. They've probably that a sunset. But if you come back to what you just said, you know, transforming the thought from product first to people first, putting the transformation of people over the commoditized transaction of dollars and cents. I'm right there with you. And what about you? What are you feeling most hopeful excited about looking ahead towards the future? Jane and I are getting up the same day and jumping in. I mean it was kind of like I'm like yeah, and yeah, but let me, let me just kind of say what she said. Plus, it's that whole connection and ability that finance has an impact on the human condition. You know, we don't ever think about finance being a first responder, but that is where we are and that is what the capability is, and that's what excites me most, is this impact to being able to say and measure and have the success of saying this is how the person has been better improved because of the abilities and capabilities that has been provided. Yes, and that just got Chris Clubs the the idea of the financial first responder is one that truly resonates because we do know the connection and correlation between a person's financial well being, will call it their wallet, and their physical well being, their financial well being and their mental well being, their emotional well being. It truly is all interconnected. This has been a fantastic conversation Jane, and thank you both for joining me. How can someone continue to the conversation with each of you going forward,...

...just to reach out and say hello? Jane, I know you mentioned to Um an assessment, but then also coming back to your marathon as well. How can they get involved with this too? I think that's very important. So either on Linkedin or twitter, and Jane Entiscobert on twitter. The links are in there and very accessible through social media. Pretty much my phone number has pasted out there as well. So I would love to see anyone who's interested in either getting involved on a marathon basis or especially getting involved from a how do we accelerate open banking across the ecosystem? The team of MX is always here to talk. Absolutely. Thank you, Jane, and what about you? Likewise, again, Jane and I are seemed to be attached to the HIP. Please me on either twitter and frive or Linkedin. And also, kind of getting back to the whole book points, we're doing promotion to fundraise for that permanent exhibit at the America's Credit Union Museum. So all books sales in the month of September, which is when they're doing and revealing this beautiful exhibit we're all going to go straight to contributing to the support of that, and you can find more information about that at Um and leg thrive dot com. Get the book, take the assessment, connect with Ann and Jane, Learn with Ann and Jane. I would even say run with Ann and Jane and we will all grow together. And Jane, thank you so much for joining me for another episode of banking on digital growth. This has been a lot of fun today. Thank you. Thank you. It's great to be here as always, and until next time, be well, do good and make your bed. Thank you for listening to another episode of banking on digital growth with James Robert Lay. To get even more practical and proven insights, along with coaching and guidance, visit digital growth dot com, slash inside to join a community of growth minded marketing and sales leaders from financial brands and fin techs. Until next time, be well and do good.

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