Banking on Digital Growth
Banking on Digital Growth

Episode · 5 months ago

170) #NewStartsNow The Dangers of Becoming Obsolete: Discussing Necessary Risk w/ Financial Brands

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

A lot of financial brands don’t take on certain risks for fear of diminished return. But that might not be the best perspective — sometimes risk makes sense when becoming obsolete is the alternative.

To learn more about the necessity of risk within financial institutions, I talk with Joel Swanson, Chief Member Experience Officer at VyStar Credit Union, about playing the long game with the member experience, partnering with fintech, and advice for the audience.

Join us as we discuss:

- The conversations around digital 4 years ago at Vystar & what’s changed since then

- How the member experience has changed most through a digital-first lens

- How purpose has guided thinking around digital strategy & fintech partnerships

- Overcoming roadblocks within your organization when leading change & hope for the future

You can find this interview and many more by subscribing to Banking on Digital Growth on Apple Podcasts , on Spotify , or here.

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for Banking on Digital Growth in your favorite podcast player.

Enjoy the stages that you're in. Learn as much as you can from each dage, as you're going to build upon that. You SKIPP through too quickly, sometimes you can't build the foundational things you do need later on. You're listening to banking on digital growth with James Robert Leigh, who believes there is no better time than now to educate and empower financial brands to gain a fresh perspective around future growth opportunities. That's why today's episode is part of the new starts now series, brought to you by Nimbus, who offers a complete set of tech tools and services, all designed and engineered to empower you and your financial brand to maximize your future growth potential. Greetings in Hello, I am James Robert Laigh and welcome to the one hundred and seventeen episode of the banking on digital growth podcast. Today's episode is part of the new starts now series and I'm excited to welcome Joel Swanson to the show. Joel is the chief member experience officer advice or credit UN, the thirteen largest credit union in the United States, and he is passionate about driving positive change that makes a real impact in the lives of those he serves. Welcome to the show, Joel. It is so good to have you on today. Yeah, thanks for having me excited to talk before we get into this idea of, will say, digital strategy and Fintech collaboration, which is an area that I know you're personally passionate about. What has been going well for you? What's good right now? Personally, professionally, it's always your pick to get started. Oh Man. On the personal side, my daughter's a cheerleader and they're they're crushing it going to competitions. That's fun. Living in Florida's fun. We just...

...had winter for two days. So yeah, remove on that. Professionally, I don't want to talk about it, but which I'm just having so much fun. We're taking necessary risks to really grow and be different than, I think, most other credit nuns and a lot of a lot of banks as well, and so it's just we're having a lot of fun. I like the way that you frame that. We're taking necessary risk to grow and there's that old adage big risk, big reward, but maybe we frame that necessary risk, necessary reward. What do you feel the difference is, like, like why take this? Maybe maybe risking the wrong word. I mean it's risk. The risk of not doing something as greater than the risk of doing something right. Living Life is risk, but a lot of people then kind of close down and don't change because they're worried about the risk. But by doing that you are actually accepting the risk of becoming obsolete, right, and so that's how I look at that. What holds people back? Like you said, they go inside, they kind of shut down. But what's the difference? Like the way that Y'all are operating at Vistar? I think the difference is that we feel it's necessary. MMM, like we have this is something we have to do to stay relevant, to compete, and I think the other ones feel like, you know, what if it goes wrong? That that's a fear, right, what if it goes wrong? And I know what I'm doing now and what that world is, and that's safe, for in the fuel and that's just human nature, right. But that feels safer, whereas we're more of the frame of mind across our border whole management team of this is this is a necessity. Yeah, yeah, and and, and what I want to do? I want to go back a little bit. Yeah, that the stage of how we got to this point today, because four years ago you were just joining vi star as the chief digital officer, and I'm curious to know, four years ago, at that time, what did digital look like? What were the conversations that were going on four years ago? You know what I when I came in into that role, I hypothesized and recognized the need for something but didn't know how to solve for it yet, and that need was simplifying technology. Right, every bank...

...can credit us doing things the same way, and we all this Penstein piece together software vendors from, and I'm not I'm not naming names to be critical, is just one of its five serve FIS, Jack Henry. You know, the list goes on. Everybody had a different version of those and then within those companies, different products and everyone thought their unique flower. And we're trying to put these things together and I recognize that when you have that kind of a disjointed internal experience, that creates a disjointed external experience. Right, and I counted at by start, and I'm not this was not you unique to hear every banker crediting like this of our sizes that way. Twenty seven different experiences that a member would interact with US digitally when they came to our website with different out and single sign on that sort of stuff. And then our employees at twenty seven different systems to MENA, see the stress of that. They make more mistakes, it's harder to learn it all. I mean it's just it kind of everything starts to fault part and then all right, department takes longer to roll things out because it's so co complicated. Right, you accidentally, you know, knock a card down, the whole thing comes down, right. And so how do we simplify that? And my hypothesis was we need to find a bank in a box. We need to May it. We need to stop thinking that we're unique on the core things that we provide and find a vendor that's created banking from the ground up. was, at the time, two thousand and eighteen modern technology right from the ground up. That says, Hey, every banker crediting you needs to do the same things. Let's create that in one ecosystem. And I started going out and asking around and I was hand a really hard time finding it. That's kind of what was going on in my mind back then. Yeah, and so if we flash forward and to where we're out today, what do you feel is change the most, just on your journey that you've taken, and Covid cannot be an answer. I mean it's that's kind of obviously the given. But what has transformed the most? You know, two thousand and eighteen to two thousand and twenty two. You know there are now. I think so I wasn't unique. You know I'm every time I think I have a unique idea and I go research I find out that I'm not the first person out it. Once I got bast that realization. You know, there's there's just now banking as a service concept and and these platforms that are coming out...

...that are trying to solve exactly that need. And so the difference for us between then and now is we have picked a partner to start on this journey, and so we're no longer talking about it, we're doing which is and so we are implementing right now the first piece of that with a company called Nimbus, where we are influenting their digital platform. And for us of our size, we don't want to do the Big Bang and go all in at once because of our complexity. I don't think we're quite ready for that and we're starting with one piece at a time. But now in our journey we can start to evaluate things. A Hey, can we fold that into the same platform? One of the things I'm glad you touched on this was we had twenty seven experiences on the member side externally. That then impact of twenty seven experiences internally, and I'm a big believer that. You know, when I wrote banking on digital growth, I was all focused on the DX, the digital experience in the Ahex, the human experience. That's great, but what I learned through the whole covid experience was I kind of forgot like the most important piece of the puzzle, which is the ex the employee experience, because a positive employee experience will yield a positive human experience that can be multiplied through a positive digital experience. Yep, as as your role has evolved, or you know, chief member experience officer, in simple if the CATION has been been a bit of goal here, how has the member experienced transformed most for VI star? Really through what I would call a digital first or a mobile first Lens. Yeah, so we we are on that journey still right and our goal, again to your point, is mobiles where everything is at. And we also have in place today still a disjointed digital experience where someone goes in their mobile APP, they can't do everything that they can do if they log into desktop and just like again a lot of providers out there, nothing tells them that the feature isn't available and to go online. It's just nonexistent. So it's really a disjointed experience in that perspective. And so with our strategy with Nimbus, we will now be offering a mobile first. That's...

...where all of our designs start. Feature will be available there. So we're not we haven't launched it yet. From a member experiencetandpoint, we're still kind of in two thousand and eighteen technology. But because of this journey of not just trying to we could have flipped over to any number of digital banking providers a lot sooner, but we were trying to think about this more holistically and long term. I got a lot of time left in my career and I don't want to be in this next best of breed thing every time, as if you replace one software solution with the next best thing for that one software solution, in a decade I'll be right where I am today. So trying to think through more holistically a long term. That right there, I think, is such a key. It's playing the long game because otherwise, if we keep playing the short game, we're only putting band AIDS on really a gaping wound, to where when you play the long game it changes the whole perspective. It gives you a sense of almost peace that hey, we've got time because we're playing a much longer game. I think the other thing that I find interesting just the way that y'all are thinking, the way you're positioning is really rooted in purpose. It's which is a big part of the whole digital growth methodology, because when you put purpose at the center of your thinking and a purpose that encapsulates people, it's a way that can be the North Star for us going forward, and I appreciate and really connect with the purpose of a vice starts simple. You exists to do good for members and for communities. I'm curious how has purpose really helped guide some of the thinking when it comes to digital strategy and maybe even this idea of fintech collaboration? It's all connected. I'll pause part way during it if you need to. But you know, if we if we do right by our employees, our employees live in the communities that we serve and they then help those communities. If we do write by the community, that helps our employees and then our members are our community. And so that's why it's all cyclical, from our members to our employees to our community in that focus. And so that's why we just kind of boil it down to do good, bank better. Right. Is that that's it's all connected, that to do good and to do the most good, we have to operate as efficiently as possible, because that maximizes...

...our ability to give back to our communities, to our employee than our members. Right. That's a credit unsmission at its core. Right, we are thrive really, really trying to lean into that to say, okay, how can we become the most efficient? Well, through growth scale, right, and then also through better digital delivery, at better self service option. And so that's why those two things are so important for us, the growth and the digital delivery to make it so that when members come in to our branches or they call us who we still believe in branch delivery is a very important pillar to this. When they call it come in, it's because they want to and they need that consultation, not because they have to. And a lot of times right now they're calling because they had a problem right the calling that they were forced to come in, or there's kind of coming because they're forced to do that. I mean that we want to make it sure that it's really additive and not because there's an issue, and then that allows us to even add more into that and continued in the growth and scale. That's a great point. It's we know people want to versus a have to, and I think that's a key distinction of the the legacy model. It's almost that approach of choose your own adventure. I want to come in because I want to come in. I don't have to, but now I want to, and that's where this idea of I think if we try to do it all ourselves, it's going to be a challenge because, because you back to your point about growth, growth is a journey. All right, about this. I speak about this like I coach about this. Growth is a journey. Is from good to great. We want to be even better and it is a journey that it takes time and it's often one that we can't do alone. I think in today's world, if we're going to take this as kind of a rugged individualist approach, it's going to be a struggle along the way. And so I want to come back to this idea of of Fintech, of partnership, of collaboration. I know this is a personal passion area for you. You're on the board of Circle. And back to your point on Nimbus. What's your take here on Fintech partnerships and collaborations? where,...

...where might there be opportunities to to not do it alone but to do it even better together? Yeah, that's a really, really good question and really good points. So also prior you to hear your other question on two thousand and eighteening hold what was going on back then? It goes right into this too. Write where we realized that, when I say we, it really is a team effort at the whole leadership team, at by stars aligned and really work together on definding a strategy together. I cannot take credit for it's an amazing team, but we realize that what's happening in the thin text face is changing the industry. Whether you like it or not. Back to the risk conversation. Right, changing it and I Brian Lower at law firm that we use. He said it he may have got from someone else, by love it. He said every Fintech is falls into one of two camps, those that want to eat your lunch for those with you. Right. Well, we want to find those, findeck partners at want to have lunch with us, that want to partner with us so that we can compete against those that are trying to eat our lunch. And the other thing is that we literally cannot compete with the fintech innovation happening because we have a fiduciary responsibility to maintain positive net worth for our members and our share insurance fund and all those things that we have. So we can't do what these fintex terms do, which is a grace capital, and have negative earnings for years to best in right you probably not. We can't do that. So recognizing those two things, the first two most important things to realize that it's a necessary thing to partner with and you cannot do it on your own, literally in no way. So the way you have to do it as partner with those Finntex well, O good. No, I was gonna say where might there be opportunities that, you know, we might not be thinking about right now? It might not be top of mine and might not be in the line of sight for many, because you've been thinking about this for the last, you know, four five years? What might we be missing here when it comes to this idea of collaboration? Because I like that point that you made. You know, they're either going to eat your launch or they want to eat lunch with you. Let's go find those that we want to eat lunch together, because it's a much kinder conversation. Yeah, well, well, that that leads into the next steps, which is okay, how do we partner with...

...them? That's exactly what I ask ourselves. Right and when you are a customer of a Fintech, that's one way a lot of people do it. Well, we'll go out and we'll research good fintech offerings and will provide that to our members and will join their customer advisory groups and will help help build their product that way. But that would be great, and that's what most people were doing back then and what a lot are still doing today. What we realize is that to have a true seat at the table and help drive their innovation road map to match what our vision is and what our members need is you have to have a seat at the table and the only way to do that is your true partnership. That comes with investment. But that's what we kind of realize, is that we need to find ways to invest in these fintex and be on boards with them and help and help them, but also help them help us and our members and the entire industry. But back then no one was really doing that. There were, there's a few. I don't say no one was. It was very rare to have creditings investing in fintext and so we announced a ten million dollar fintech investment fund to announce the market the hey, credit means are in this business. We want to partner with you in a real and meaningful way. But what that did that we didn't realize is it really deputized everyone at by star that was working with fenders to ask the simple questions are you open for investment? And the amazing thing happens when you ask that as even if they're not raising capital or open to investment, they think of US differently. HMM, wow, these guys are. They're asking if they want to bet. No one's asked us that before. You know that. From a crediting perspectively, that's that's amazing. Yeah, let's talk about that, right. And so what we found is people that we want to use as a as a vendor for by star members, but also that are open to investment and then getting on their board and driving that road map. And I could go on with all pause. Today's episode of banking on digital growth is brought to you by Nimbus, who believes in creating even better financial services for all that are access, better experiences, better value, all while supporting the entire customer journey. And how do they do this? Offering end to end niche banking solutions that you can buy or build, providing accountability beyond the technology and prioritizing and pack full intentional innovation,...

...instead of chasing features, ready to transform what is and create what's next. Learn more at nimbeszcom. That really transforms the entire way of thinking, because what happens? It's really kind of three things. You begin to see things differently, and when you see things differently, that transforms the way that you think about something, and the that that new thinking than drives new behaviors, new opportunities, even even new habits, and and so I'm fascinated with this. What have been the big lessons that you've learned through this type of an experience, because it's one that I think, you know, we could all benefit from. It's really kind of where one plus one has the potential to even equal eleven, because there's an accelerant to it, there's a multiplying factor. What have been the big lessons from this experience, that's that that you've gained along the way here? Well, I think the first lesson is that it's a necessity and everyone should be doing it right. If you're going to partner with the vendor to offer solutions, you got to really make sure that you're maximizing your value. You've got to find a way to really partner with them and find ways to invest in text. Every credit and community bank should be doing this. Put some skin in the game. Put some skin in the game. Yep, and what? And then the thing that we rail recognize out of it is the cyclical benefit that happens right. So you if you set up for a customer contract the vender, that's great. They go to market, they tell everyone and everyone's like, okay, that's great, the h invest in them. Not. Now you're as invested as they are and growing their brands. So now you're going to be much more likely to talk to people when you're out at at conferences about them. We're going to take those reference calls, you're going to talk them up. Also, it shows that not only do you care enough to be a customer of theirs, but you care enough to invest in them. That then sends the market like wow, it's a stamp of approval on that vendor. So that then helps them sell more customer contracts, which helps your investment. And then the more surprising than that we found. We hoped this would happen, but it did, is that we were able to go to them, and this at all. Youse pay varis is a great example. Right. We went from and...

...say hey, we think there's an opportunity to solve a problem for our members, and they said, ah, we see that, but it's not really where our focus is. You know, that's not something that we see quite as well, but because of our partnership they're like let's talk about it, and it was great. And then, as we looked at it more together they said wow, that's a huge market opportunity for us and you. We didn't realize you're spending that much on that solution. Yeah, we should go build that and solve that for you. Now that rounds out their product mix and adds another product they can sell to their current customers. It makes them more competitive to selling that the next customer because their product offering is more robust and solves more real problems. It gets them more income, which helps our investment and helps our members. That whole cyclical nature of that is probably the biggest lesson learned. Is maybe the wrong thing is. We went in with that hypothesis and hope that would occur, but it really does occur. One of the things is a pattern here. Investment leads to alignment. Alignment leads to advocacy because we're all working on the same page and we're all working towards the same goals, and that advocacy than leads to continued growth. Back to your point, and it's cyclicle. Just repeats the cycle again. You know, I'm listening to this conversation, I'm excited about the potential opportunity. Maybe I'm at a financial brand or I'm at a fintach and I'm like this is what I need to hear, but I don't have that same type of buying an alignment internally within my organization. What might be some ways to overcome that, to overcome some of those hurdles, to overcome some of those road blocks and maybe just facilitate, I think just facilitate a conversation, because I think that's where it all begins. We have to overcome the fear of the unknown and the fear of change. And maybe it is dialog, maybe it's discussion, or maybe I'm just entirely wrong with that thinking there. How would you recommend someone start these conversations internally within their own organization? And that's one thing I love about being here at Bistar Creditian is that I didn't have to do that. Our Board of directors and and our CEO were already bought into the need to change and then need to be aggressive in this area. So that's...

...that's a very fortunate to have that. But I will say they think as we went out as part of the Circle Fund and talk to a lot of credit nuns about forming that fun and joining in on that together, was really helping people realize, and I think it's happening more and more where they're seeing what's happening in the space with apple and and, you know, the big brands Google. So the big brands coming into our space and I think it's much more widely accepted now that there's a neat right that there is out there, and so that's I think the first step is understanding. Right. The first step in any recovery is is first recognizing you have a problem. Right, so we have a problem. I think that's the first things. And you don't have that, then you need to make sure people realize and I think the best way is to just focus on the threat. Look at those vintexts are trying to eat your lunch and show people how they're doing that. Already they're already eroting. It's interesting you talk about the awareness piece and showing I can't tell you how many times I've worked with a financial brand and I'm like and they philosophically know the competitive threat, but then I ask have you ever opened an account with them? Have you ever experienced on boarding? Have you ever applied for a loan, and just what does that feel like? Because you we can sit here and philosophically talk about it all day long, but until you get that mobile phone, pick it up, go through the experience yourself. I think that to me, that's what I've seen the biggest light bulb moments go off. Is Like Wow, I've heard about this, I read about in the trades, I've never seen it with my own eyes. Now I do. Now it becomes real. I think that is is a great way to kind of bridge that gap of really kind of having the awareness and really making it real and a self actualizing what that is internalizing and to your point, you've been very fortunate to have that alignment, to have that that awareness throughout the organization board, CEO, senior level. When you...

...think about just kind of your peers here, what might be some road blocks that you're hearing that holds people back in this area? And then I think every time that we think about a road block, my mind always goes, okay, fine, we have these road blocks. Opportunity, opportunity to overcome those road blocks there. So maybe what's a road block, a big one that you see in the will talk to, an opportunity to help others. I think I think being first is the biggest road block I see people have a fear of being first and you'll hear terms like fast follower right, but the moment you say you're a fast follower, you're what you're really saying is we plan to be behind. That's what you're saying. Whether not realize it or not, it's reality. There's no debating that. I'd love to talk to anybody that thinks they're fast follower, because they're wrong. You're behind your lagger if you're saying that, if you're not willing to at least be at the forefront of something and be leading change for what you need for your organization, driving on your vision, Your Road Map, then then you're never going to get there. And so I think that's the first thing peo need to get around is it's okay to be first sometimes as you do it in a way that's understandable, and do your good diligence and make sure that you again have us the table, because right within our company a department might have an issue, but it's our company. We have to fix that. If you're invested in a findeck, they're now part of you. If there's an issue, you have to fix it. There's no longer there's one will to switch vendors, go over here, right. They'll then write the ship at some point and you just won't be part of that anymore. Like you just have to realize that you're invested now and the lines get blurred between customer and vendor because you own part of them. Yeah, you get over that fact of it's okay to be first sometimes. Yeah, and I think that it is okay to be first. That's leadership and I think leadership it requires some courage. It requires courage and it requires commitment and and that's something that I'm writing about in banking on change the second book. It's an acronym which is, you know, if we must act for growth, and it comes back to the point that you're making before. Awareness, but awareness plus commitment. That's...

...to see, awareness plus commitment. That's where the big transformation happens, because we can have the awareness in the world, but if unless we're fully committed to take that knowledge and apply and do something about it, and then we say in the same exact place we were before. We can have commitment, but unless we're committed to the right things, then we could just be, you know, going into a circle and spending our wills and ultimately we tire out and then we go back to the Cave of complacency and throw our hands up in the air and say, yeah, that wasn't worth it. So many people are focus on the awareness only, but they don't they're not doing anything about it. Yeah right, they're just going. They're just going to the next vendor and they're there. I got this this content looaster core or digital. I'll go and find the next best to breed. And they're just in this pattern. There not, they're not thinking about it differently. I think of one organization right now that has been in our program last five or six years on the marketing side. Tremendous progress, tremendous growth, and then they're going to go out and a lot of it is because of the simplification. Back to your point to start this conversation. They've taken a lot of tools and have simplified it down into one particular platform and then they're talking about going back out and almost unwinding things and restarting over and it really has me puzzled and curious as to why. And so you start digging into that why, and it's because of alignment or lack of alignment. Different parts of the organizations have different needs, and I think this comes back to this idea when you're driving forward on purpose, that alignment really can help solidify. That's that's where the whole idea of north star comes back into play, because it's that North Star that, when things get tough, we can fall back on, that, when things get challenging, we can fall back onto the North Star and and to your point, it's it is it is doing good. It's doing good for members, is doing good for communities. I want to get your take on this. If you could go back, and we'll just use...

...the horizon of two thousand and eighteen and the journey that you've taken, if you could go back and just do one thing differently, knowing what you know now, what would that one thing that you could do different what would that be? If you could just get a Redo? Oh Gosh, you know, I don't. I don't spend a lot of my life thinking that way. So it's hard for me. It's hard for me to go back and think through that because the the partners that we have now and the journey that we got to. We got to because of the process. Yeah, right, and actually they weren't ready for us back then. So if we had gone back last year and worked with some of these partners and try to do some of the things we're doing now early, it wouldn't have worked. In fact, we may have failed. Right, we may have thought a failure and then and then realize that the joke by going through the journey that we did and and making sure the vendors were ready for us and they growth that they went through to get ready for us. I honestly can't think of a single thing that I would have done differently, other than, you know, at one point picking a vendor before Nimbus that we then cut ties with to move to Nimbus, but again at the right time for them being ready, as that added some some difficulty in the middle and it was a legacy. It was a legacy player on one of the things. So that would probably the one thing. But sometimes the process has to be followed and, you know, you end up at the spot that you're at. Man. You know, I think that right there is such a key takeaway for the dear listener is what you said. I don't spend a lot of time thinking about that it's always interesting when I when I do ask that question from time to time, and I don't ask a lot, but it's for those that say I don't don't really spend a lot of time thinking about that. It's those are the ones who are really kind of experiencing the greatest level of growth and satisfaction. And I mean twenty years into doing this myself, people ask me, you know, what would you do differently, and I'm like, I don't really know, because everything that I've done is got me to this point and it's part of the process, part of that's and that's career advice. Right. We're old enough now where, I'm sure at some point in our twenties, at least for me and after I got to school, I want to be to Seeeo tomorrow. Right. And My fatherin law gave me the greatest advice, which is, hey, enjoy the process. Yes, enjoy...

...it. It is a process. You is not a sprint, it's a marathon and enjoy the stages that you're in. Learn as much as you can from each stage because you're going to build upon that. If you skip through it too quickly, sometimes you can't build those foundational things. You do need later on, and I like in that same thing for our digital journey. Yes, and our burney. Enjoy the process. Enjoyed the ride. On that theme, what has been the most enjoyable part for you? Oh Gosh, being first. Yeah, it's so fun. It is so fun to be first and to have a CEO, a management team and a board that wants us to be first and that will tolerate some version of our level of mistakes that may occur along the way. To know that you have that backing, but then to be able to have this fun and be first and go do things that are truly different and unique. Oh my gosh, it's a ride. It's so fun. Well, I mean you're blazing trells at that point. It's like, and I think we're the same generation, it's like playing organ trell right. You're little out on the front and you're getting to explore and experience new things and New Territories. I want to do a little trail blazing with you as we begin to wrap up, and this has been a lot of fun today. So I appreciate that. The thinking if we look out as just keep keep the horizon line short, because I used to say like three years and then I started making eighteen months. Let's make it twelve months. If you look out of the next twelve months, what are you most hopeful and excited about with the work that you and the team are doing, the experience work that you're doing over, advice are what are you most hopeful excited about in a twelve months is a very short horizon. Suff that's the easier yeah, I thought you'RE gonna say ten years. I was about to get a was about to get there on that. But the next twelve months for us, as we are in March moving over to our next Gen digital platform. That really gives us the foundation by which to build really fun experiences on top of right, we're truly going out with minimal viable product, which is still going to be a huge, huge upgrade for our digital...

...for our mobile first digital delivery. But now we can start doing the fun stuff. Right, we can stop trying to replace what we have today, and I expect I remembers, and really start building on top of that and starting to connect experiences together and make all of our journeys just a seamless experience. And back to your comment. You know, part of the part of your comment on going and opening up accounts with some of these findex or applying for loan system and how easy it is. We are so uniquely position because our members already have an affinity to us, they trust and they like us. We don't have to beat those guys, we don't have to even be as good as them, but we've got to be at least close enough where it's not a negative and a barrier by which they go. You know what, I'm going to go over here because it's just that much easier. Right, we we can win without being as good as those guys from digitally now I want. Do I want to be a hundred percent? Do I have the two billion dollars to invest in the Erica product? That be evated? No, I do not. Right, and so we don't have to beat those guys. We just got to make sure that we're not creating conflict or you know, that that barrier in between. Yeah, yeah, that's a great point. It's and I like the idea of the MVP because I think, you know, it's so easy to try to like achieve this level of idealism and perfection, but that has its own expense and costs associated to it, because every one, yeah, exactly, you'll never launch and and and we get it to the eighty percent or the eighty five percent. We launch it, we learn, we grow. I want to leave the dear listeners we wrap up today, Joel, like something practical, something that can help them move forward make some progress on their own journey of growth. Ring maybe they're on the financial brand side, maybe they're on the Fintech side, but what would be a recommendation, something small that, that you could make for them, because all transformation that leads to future growth begins with a very small, simple step. What would that be for them to move forward? When it comes to this idea of collaboration, of working together to make something even better, you know from that perspective, I would just say find a way to get equity in a FANTEC and some way, shape or form, even...

...if it's starting with a fund that then does the investing for you. If that's not your expertise, which is understandable, right to have the due diligence teams necessary to make sure you're going through that individually can be tough and daunting. The find a way to get some version of equity in a Fintech and some way, shape or form, just to start to experience what that's like. Great Point. Great Point, and I think that's right there. To experience what it's like and then learn from those experiences and just continue to apply and reapply that knowledge going forward. Joel, thank you so much. Great Conversation. If someone wants to connect with you, reach out, say hello, continue the dialog that we started today. What's the best way for them to do that? Yeah, I'm on Linkedin all the time, but a lot of sales calls come to their so Swanson Jay at five star Ceu Dot Org is the best, best way to get ahold of me. So connect with Joel, learn from him. Joel, thank you so much for joining me on another episode of banking on digital growth. This has been a lot of fun, buddy. Thank you very much as always, and until next time, be well, do good, make your bed. Thank you for listening to another episode of banking on Digital Growth with James Robert Leigh, brought to you by Nimbus, who is on a mission to bring the people, process and technology together to create new roots to growth for financial brands and enable them to deliver outcomes. To learn more about how you can collaborate with Nimbus to maximize your future digital growth potential. visit www dot nimbuscom. Until next time, be well and do good.

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