Banking on Digital Growth
Banking on Digital Growth

Episode · 6 months ago

151) #DigitalGrowthJourneys: How Marketing Can Lead Your Digital Growth Journey


In a world that’s changed so much in the past couple of years, one change is good news for those invested in digital growth:

Marketers are finally getting a seat at the table and being seen as proactive strategic partners.

Today’s guest, Patrick McCarthy, SVP, Head of North America Marketing and MarTech at City National Bank, has seen that change first-hand in his digital growth journey, which he joins the show today to share.

In this episode, we discuss:

- How marketers can be a proactive partner

- The buy-in and change management needed to pull of digital growth

- How marketers need to respond to impending cookiepocolypse

You can find this interview and many more by subscribing to Banking on Digital Growth on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, or here.

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for Banking on Digital Growth in your favorite podcast player.

...its content. Everyone knows its content and its trying to create that journey. Keep people interested. Mhm. You are listening to Banking on Digital Growth with James Robert Lay, a podcast that empowers financial, brand marketing, sales and leadership teams to maximize their digital growth potential by generating 10 times more loans and deposits. Today's episode is part of the Digital Growth Journey series, where James Robert uncovers and explores some of the industry's biggest digital marketing and sales stories of success. Let's get into the show, Greetings and Hello, I am James Robert Ley and Welcome to the 151st episode of the Banking on Digital Growth podcast. Today's episode is part of the Digital Growth Journey series, and I'm excited to welcome Patrick McCarthy to the show. Patrick is SCP head of North America Marketing and Martek, a city national bank, And he's leading a team of more than 50 colleagues in New York and Los Angeles who are responsible for developing and executing the company's brand marketing, content development, digital marketing, direct response and social media campaigns. In addition, Patrick is also overseeing the newly formed Client Insights Group as well as the Salesforce and adobe teams. Welcome to the show. Patrick is so good to have you on today, buddy. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. Before we get into your own digital growth journey where you've been, where you're at, where you're looking forward to going next. I always like to start off on a positive note. What? What are you excited about right now? What's good in your world? Personally, Professionally, it's always your pick. Yeah. You know, I'm excited that I feel like, you know, there's a semblance of our world coming back to normal. And, um, you know, we've seemed to have dealt with the Delta variant pretty well, and I'm excited to be back on the road. I'm on a work trip right now, meeting with my team. I think part of the pandemic and the result of how we interact has been really positive in terms of digital adoption and acceptance. But we've lost some of the importance in person interaction that define teams, and I'm sure we'll talk about it later. But it's been really nice to see some of my team face to face for some important brainstorming. Things like that. You and me both. It is good to get back out on the road. It is good to see people Dare I even say hug people because I wasn't I wasn't much of a hugger before the pandemic. But I'll tell you, I'm I'm giving more hugs now than probably ever before just because it's, uh, you know, we need that human connection. We're social creatures and when you you you stay apart for so long. But I'll tell you for me personally, I think the travels with more intention now, like what can be done remotely or a synchronously what do we need to get together and actually sit down? And Powell, and that's where I want to take this. You know, you've been on this journey, particularly at city national,...

...going back to 2019. Let's hop into the time delivering of your mind roll the clock back. What has really transformed because, I mean, it was right before kind of before the pandemic. And then you've you've you've journeyed through this. Now what has that experience been like looking backwards? Where have you been? Yeah, it's it's it's a great, great question and, you know, we took some pretty deliberate steps early in 2019 to transform how we, as the marketing organization sort of took our took our products, services, lines of business to marketing. And traditionally it was a pretty analog organization, given the fact that we had a business model that was focused very much on interpersonal relationships and referral based marketing. So the marketing group sort of acted as a lever that used analog channels to drive awareness. There was very little in the way of sort of digital acquisition because there wasn't the right infrastructure rules set up that that sort of allowed the marketers to go to market. So when I came in, you know, we made a really deliberate effort to lean into Salesforce and Adobe, a sort of our two key partners. Adobe, for our public facing marketing activities and sort of salesforce is the backbone of our connectivity. Two lines of business. And once we had that right foundation in place, we, you know, took a full formal approach to digital marketing from awareness, use digital to build audiences and then all the way down to acquisition, reaching out and testing into legion campaigns where, you know, we're still cognizant of the fact that we're a relationship based bank. We're never going to be a mass market bank that's leveraging sort of digital on boarding all the way through. But how do we leverage digital to help our bankers build their business? And it's been an evolution. And you know, thankfully, we took a lot of steps before the pandemic because when the pandemic happened and everyone went digital, we had sort of already set up the right infrastructure website was where it needed to be. We had set up the right processes, but the lines of business to facilitate sort of lead to an activity. So in my mind, what I told my team is we were already pivoting right in the pandemic. Sort of allowed us to take a much harder right as an organization. Yeah, you've got that jump start and when you think about the progress that you're making there on that journey you hit on a couple of key points were relationship bank. But now we're using technology to empower our bankers to build even deeper relationships to do even deeper level work and even from an acquisition, I was just talking with the CEO of another bank multiple billions in assets. And they're actually hiring a chief digital acquisition officer. And I think it's a really unique role because it's almost taking the playbook out of banking on digital growth and applying it back to your point. Full funnel awareness, consideration, purchase and technology is the tool to connect those different dots together.

I want to come back to the to the banker side. Here, you mentioned sells force kind of powering some of the stuff behind the scenes the backbone. But digital growth is more than just technology. What role has culture the people side of this played internally on the journey that you've taken, you know, throughout the entire organization here? It's a great question. And, you know, traditionally, marketing and sales have been pitted against each other. Right? Marketing. If you're a salesperson, marketing is trying to take my job or do my job better if your market or you know I can't achieve my goals because I need sales to finish the final, and it takes Number one senior leadership on the sales side that are willing to sort of take this leap with you. Invest in change management if they're not exactly seeing returns yet. And number two, it takes collaboration, and City National has a culture that is very entrepreneurial. We were started by entrepreneurs many years ago, and so, thankfully, we have a culture that allows innovation and change. And we met a lot with the bankers across sort of all the lines of business. Took them with us on this change showed how we really are our successes and extra strictly linked. I can't succeed without them. They can better succeed with marketing. And so it's been a shift in mindset and thankfully, you know, we've had some time. It didn't happen in a day, you know, you have to test in We we started sort of this Digital legion capabilities with a small test in one region showing value. Then we went to two regions that we went to all of our all of our markets, multiple lines of business, And that's how you do it. If you came in and came in sort of day one in 2019 and said, I'm going to we're going to change the entire way that we support your business. I would be fired. And so it was it was. It was important to sort of again. It's sort of when I say to my team is just like turning the Titanic. Right, my boss, About a long time ago, right. You don't you don't take a hard right, right? You give it. And you And then all of a sudden, two years later, you look back and you say, Oh, my God, we are different organizations that we were two years ago, right? Small little changes across your entire marketing organization. It's what I speak to so often the idea that progress is greater than perfection. Because if you do say we're gonna come in here, we're gonna change. Everything changes hard changes, scary change is painful. And you're gonna get a lot of, uh, negative reaction to that. You you mentioned a couple of things where a culture of change where a culture of innovation where a culture of collaboration. So we're all working together. But I like the point that you made of, of testing, piloting iterating, learning in a smaller area and then moving that to the next and then to the next and then to the next, because that helps to build the courage to commit to move forward even further with confidence. So I'm curious, you know, looking back and really to help the dear listener...

...because so many right now are struggling with what we're talking about. You've got a jump start. How do you gain the buying? And how do you gain the support of others to come on this journey with you? You mentioned, you know, executive buying. And there's the entrepreneurial built into the culture. But I know not every financial brand culture is like that. So how do you gain? What recommendations could you make for others to to bring others along with them? It was interesting. I am. You know, early on, in my tenure here, I spent a lot of time with sort of the senior management within each one of the groups. And that's important, right? Because you're trying to change vision, you need to spend time with them. I had an epiphany about a year and a half ago that I needed to go a couple levels down and actually went and did what I called was like a listening tour. And I met with the branch manager in each one of the regions and have the conversations with them and brought them along and said, This is what we're going to do together And this is how I'm going to help you reach your quarterly yearly goals, right? But I need I need you to follow up on leads that I send you with an excellent amount of time. I need you to be putting inputs into Salesforce, that we can be more effective on our side and how we go about and how we target via media. And that is what really has really changed the conversation. And, you know, I think it's important to find people that are hungry and for what you're trying to achieve. So in a given division, I would be lying if I said that everyone sort of immediately saw sort of the promised land, right? There are early adopters, they're laggards in every organization. And so find those early adopters that and really make sure that we're funneling the leads to them in the beginning and then sort of casting a wider net as we show adoption and prove value to the heads of the lines of business and show them this really can be sort of the growth throughout before you. I like the idea of a listening tour. This is something that I've heard echoed from Jeffrey Kendall's. We've been spending a lot of time having these conversations, and I know the team over at Nimbus has been doing a lot of listening. But to take that idea internally, go to the different lines of business, sit down, have these conversations I talked about going all in externally, which is about asking, listening and learning through observation with external market segments. The same is true here. You've gone all in. You ask this and learned observed internally. I'm curious to you mentioned, You know, you've got the natural early adopters, what I call the growth agents, the neutrals and then some of the detractors. How does training education did you have to do any training? Did you have to do any education just to help the unaware become aware of what some of these opportunities are to begin with? Because we only know what we know. And then, you know, how do you overcome some of that lack of awareness, which is really kind of rooted, rooted in fear of the unknown? Oh, for sure, and... goes back to your point around testing. When we first did the initial pilot in the small market, we were going out with a few different products. And as we were passing the leads to the bankers to be a sales force, we were getting all types of questions like, I didn't know how to steer this conversation. I didn't really know what to reach out with. And it was It was training that came in and said, If if a lead comes from this Media because we're out there with 1618 different pieces of creative, different call to actions, testing different and the bankers on their side didn't have any of that, they got a lead. And so we started passing that information. This lead came from social and was talking about X products. So when you reach out to the prospect, they're gonna expect you to lead with that product. And that was all stuff that we learned along the way, right? How do we make it that it's a journey and a process for passing as much information as we can to the bankers? You also you know, people don't necessarily understand what we do as marketers, right and especially in financial services. But I think in most industries they think that we sit around and pick out a lot of pretty pictures all day. But having them understand why it's so important that we get feedback on a lead if it doesn't work, because then we can be better partners to you. When we're passing the next lead to you, right? We're optimizing our media, so helping them understand how we make decisions as marketers what their input means to me and my team. It's all important, right, and you can't just top down gets you there, you know, 60% of the way, but to get the rest of the 40% you need understanding on the bankers part and that part of it, it's, you know, the campaigns lasted three months, right? But there was seven months of me meeting with the bankers, getting them excited, showing them the creative walking through the process, what we need from them, what they're going to get from us. And it's, you know, change can be, you know, tough work, but it's pretty rewarding. If you get it right. You hit an interesting point about the misunderstanding of marketing. How has the role of marketing transformed over? And we're going to create a shorter horizon line? Let's just say, three years, two of them really kind of being pandemic related. And what might others might not understand about marketing? Because you have you have, you know, financial brand leaders who are listening. You have obviously marketers who are listening sells team members, ops, lendings, listening. I've got a good mix of audience here. So where might there be misunderstanding that you can help clear up for others? You know, I would say that, and especially the last few years, you know, marketing can be a proactive partner for you and how you're going to drive your business right. We have insights through media partners that can help us decide what products we're going to design based on client or prospect intent. We were able... provide through a partnership with Google early indications on SP A loans which which was exploding early in the pandemic, right? We can be that front end strategy partner, and I think it's a shift in mindset from marketing can be my reactive partner to market marketing can help me decide where we're going to go, who we're going to prioritize, really, you know, on the front and on the business side. And I'm lucky here at nationals that I have partners that allow me to sit at the table and have a voice based on what I'm seeing in the market. What's resonating And the other thing I would say is Mark, you know, marketing, especially in financial services where you know each different line of business can sort of march towards their own goals. Marketing is an enterprise wide in most organizations and enterprise function. That is a rare part of the organization that sees all the different initiatives and can help connect dots and help scale campaigns across different groups, because the needs of a small business are different than the needs of a commercial business right. But there are similarities between them that you can leverage from a marketing perspective. And so I'd say even more sort of reason to have a marketing partner at the table early on, and I think the pandemic has helped that as we've gone digital, the marketing insights become even more important in Howard designing products. How how we're developing sort of campaign solutions for and client. And so hopefully, marketing and other organizations has has had that seat on this at the strategy table. Digital growth is a journey from good to great, but sometimes this journey can feel confusing, frustrating and overwhelming. The good news is you don't have to take this journey alone, because now you can join a community of growth minded marketing and sales leaders from financial brands and fin techs who are all learning, collaborating and growing together. Visit digital growth dot com slash insider to learn more about how you can join the digital growth insider community to maximize your future digital growth potential. Now back to the show. That's a great point marketing, you know, transforming from being a reactive element to being a proactive element. And the only way that's gonna happen is if the if marketing is included in the conversations earlier and often even down to product design. Because I know so many stories and was even facilitating a conference in the Middle East over to buy a couple of weeks ago, and one of them was, They shared that they launched about 300 products never did any kind of real world market research, which was so different he was a chief marketing officer said this was so different. He came. He came in from CPG consumer packaged goods. And it's all about that early market research to provide that guidance, that direction. And then it's a collaboration that comes back Thinking about your own journey, where you've come from really, once again, kind of this this horizon line 2019. If... look back, what would one thing that if you could do just one thing differently? What would that one thing be? I think I probably would have moved a bit faster and been more deliberate. I think, um, You know, Hindsight's 2020, you know, and I think I didn't expect, given our relationship model, how many people were open to having sort of a digital relationship with a relationship bank. And, you know, I heard early on, you know, analog, analog, analog an analog will always be important, right? Especially when you look at a clientele like cars that have very specific needs for not sort of a mass market financial institution. I was surprised how willing people were to talk to us that would that fit our sort of the business model we were trying to get after. And so I think we've We've done the testing and we've shown value and and we're sort of scaling it across the B two c and B two B. Um, but I probably would have Would have would have been a little bit more deliberate early on. Uh, this is a very tactical question that I'm about to ask, but it's one that I know so many struggle with, um, getting people to use the CRM, getting that data entry, that data input on the other side. How have you been able to effectively do that? Because I know so many organizations. They bring CRM, and it doesn't matter if it's a cell's force or the flavor doesn't matter. It's the It's the fact that that is not being utilized. There's a cultural conversation. How have you been able to effectively do that? To get the actual use of the technology to get to reap its full benefits? I'll tell you, what doesn't work is sending around sort of dashboards that show logging over the past two days and using a scare tactic, right? Get L O V s to log in because you're sort of putting a Band Aid over over So we would send that around and logins would spike right before we send it to our management team, and then it would go down. And I think that that's sort of where we were early on. I think it's sort of where I was getting at with. My comments is trying to sort of mask the real problem. And then what we did is we developed programs that were critical to bankers and how they do their business. So when I think you know, you and I have discussed PVP and and the enormous burden that put on our organization, and We originally decided to build something ourselves that facilitated repayment and then for PPP. two that facilitated applications and it was better than what we had done before, it was fast, it was more customizable. It was on brand, and it transformed how this organization thought about our CRM system and it went from you need to do this too. I have this other process. I do kind of be in this system, and that's now where we are as an organization is, You know,...

...a backlog of 300 requests to put into our crm platform. I'd say it almost killed the team that does salesforce for me and the gentleman who leads the practice across Adobe and Salesforce. Joakim, really, you know, took a gamble and said, I can do this. My team can do this and we can build this internally and we can We can transact over $2 billion salesforce for this and it was a risk, but it paid off and we are in a completely different frame of mind. Across those forced adoption rates are up across some of our some of our lines of business have gone from 40% to 80%, and that's real adoption. Um, so it's been transformative. Well, when you have people who are coming to you with requests, you know that the mind has shifted, the mind has transformed because they're seeing things in a whole new light, and it creates that what I call that backlog or not, the backlog. I call it the innovation jar. Make a deposit into the innovation jar, and we're gonna revisit this thing, like every 90 days we're gonna re prioritized and move things around. And then it's this whole new energy that's being brought into the organization As you look ahead towards the future, really, the next 2-3 years when it comes to marketing within financial services, what's one thing that you're just most excited about based upon where you've been, where you're at and then where you can continue to grow going forward? Yeah, and I think I think it's the continuation of how do we? It's really two things. It's how do we continue to look at the client burning? And I'll talk about sort of my part of financial services specifically across the B2B side? I think we and financial services have done a pretty poor job in understanding the beauty side of our business and how it's a unique monster. And But B two B marketing, you're still marketing to a person, so you can take what you do on the B two C side. There's longer sales cycles. There's more decision makers involved, but you can take what you've done in the digital infrastructure. You have set up leveraging paid digital understanding the client journey developing unique content. You can apply it to the B two B side, so I am extremely excited. A lot of our work the last 2.5 years has been modernizing the DC side of how we go to market. I'm excited to take all that And unique on the B- two B side. Leveraging salesforce, leveraging adobe unique insights we can get and and transforming outside of the business. You talk about the B2B space, and that was actually a prediction of mind going all the way back to January of this year, saying that B2B small business growth commercial growth is an untapped opportunity, digitally speaking, and your point about the buying cycle to me. B two B It's almost like a sash, like a... as a service buying cycles. You know, 6 12, sometimes 18, 24 months, where there's multiple touchpoints, multiple conversations along the way and be able to to reference and store all that together once again. More of a tactical question here, but I'm just curious to get your take for the dear listener. As you look ahead, marketing channels have transformed you know over the years, going from analog to digital, even in digital marketing, channels are still continuing to transform. What's maybe the big marketing channel that we need to be paying attention to? Maybe maybe it isn't the b two b space of just a way to gain people's attention, hold their attention. Educate help. Where's your mind in regards to marketing channels? I mean, we are right now transforming our own digital external facing property on the beat of the Assad, infusing as much content as we can. And ultimately, I think what's important and something we're thinking through. And I love your point of view on this is where is that sort of delineation between when we start collecting first party data on our because we all know sort of the cookie list future. And what do we provide to anybody? When do we start asking? When does that sort of value exchange switch? Someone's willing to give us that first party data because to your point, we're not going to get a cell with someone rooting a single white paper, be a white paper and then an invitation to an event and then follow up on the event right and creating sort of a journey on the B two B side is going to be important. But I think it has to start with, you know, the owned properties you have integrating content, integrating thought leadership that's unique in whatever vertical ization you're going into, because that's sort of where the B side of the business is going is less so. A one size fits all on the commercial side. But how do you develop unique, creative or unique content or unique solutions for my specific industry or industry vertical? I love the question. I'm glad you're thinking here because you're right. The future is going to be cookie list, and that's gonna create a lot of blind spots for marketers. Even in the inbox. I predict that in three years the inbox of what we have known is not going to look like it is in three years. IOS, 15 is showing their leading the way if we follow the pattern with IOS 15. What Apple's doing around data privacy what they did in Safari, for example, Google probably follow in Gmail Three years, 2-3 years from now. So what does that leave us with that leaves us with content in that first party data. And so I would say that the big opportunity is to look at operating more like a media first organization to where content is the fuel of the engine. Um, I've been doing a lot of advising around podcasts, for example, and video content. I mean, that's one of the reasons we're upgrading, you know, investing a lot of money into the studio here as a small business, but it is leading by by what you do not buy.

Just what you say, because I'm really predicting that if we can do transfer this knowledge into other banks all the way down to the first person level of a lender of a banker, that's a marketing channel of one. It's a micro influencer who I really believe that over the next 3 to 5 years in marketing, it's going to be the micro influencer. It's going to be the lender of the banker who might have more power than the corporate brand. That's a very scary proposition for some, But if it's done with education, if it's done with training, if it's done with respect, it's a multiplication factor because back to your point in a relationship banking, people trust people. People do business with people, people bank with people. Technology is just the medium, the exchange right there. And so from a marketing standpoint, I see an opportunity to really provide a lot of, like, knowledge transfer into bankers lenders Celsius. However, you want to frame it to basically become little thought leaders who then can influence their book of business and the people that they know and they're digital sphere. So that's my take. What do you think on that? I think we're completely aligned, right? And you know, thankfully, my organization is part of Royal Bank of Canada, and so we have access to amazing thought leadership from them in our minds. It's How do we take that dog leadership in that unique perspective that Royal Bank of Canada has as one of the leading global financial institutions and provide that to our clients? Um, but you're I think you're spot on its content. Everyone knows its content. Um, and it's, you know, trying to create that journey. Keep people interested and at the right opportunity, you know, engage the bank or the relationship manager to say, You know this person is showing interest in X Y Z right? But you can't get there unless you're showing value thought, leadership, unique content in the space. And I think it's going to be unique content, especially in the B two b side, thinking about vertical ization. So industry specific content and not necessarily sort of brought, you know, technology specific content is where is where we're thinking of going. It's that idea of vertical or niche ng down, you know, not necessarily building but communicating expertise within a certain vertical. I'm right there with you. What's gonna hold? What's gonna hold us back? What's gonna hold the dear listener back? What's gonna hold others back from moving forward on this journey? What are the roadblocks or the challenges that we either a need to be aware of or be we might need to eliminate altogether? What's that in your mind? I mean, I think the roadblocks are if you think about financial services, you know, Number one is, I think we talked about sort of the calculus future, and that's something that me and my team are...

...spending a lot of time thinking about. And how do we leverage first party cookies, we're gonna lose the ability to generally use some of our status that we have now. How do we get as much first party data as we can? And I think the second is. And and everyone has this issue, too. But sales cycles are really long on the B side, and so it's harder to say this is working. Stay the course, keep investing, keep developing this new content. Give me your best people's time to develop new content if you're not showing value. And so um, and I think that's the problem. You know that's not so. The National Bank on the B two b side. Any anyone knows that, that's that's an issue. And so getting people to stay the course, saying We're investing all this time, money resources into this side because we'll pay off. Yeah, yeah, it's It's the old challenge of what marketing was that idea of direct marketing. We do X. We immediately get why. But was that even true? Or was that some fudging of the numbers even back in the day? But now we have this consideration stage in the middle. It's messy, but but we're able to get a lot more clarity around engagement around, activity around response, attendance of events, etcetera, that we can put together modeling that brings all of that together. What are the patterns that we're seeing throughout that consideration stage? And that's where the technology comes back into play to provide that clarity, the pattern matching that we just can't do otherwise at scale. Patrick has been a fantastic conversation. I want to get real practical here at the end. For someone that's listening, they're energized. They're inspired. Where can they take the next step to move forward? Because I do believe that all change begins with a very small, simple step. Not a big one, but a small one so that they can just make progress. What would your recommendation be for them? Just one small, simple practical step to move forward with confidence on their digital growth journey. And we're assuming they've read your book, right, because that would have been number one. Well, maybe, Maybe, maybe, maybe they haven't read it, but But we'll definitely we'll. We'll we'll take another. We'll take another reader, So amazon dot com, baking on Digital Growth, grabbed the book. But let's assume. Let's assume that they read it. I would say the most important thing I did that helped in the early stages was set up a client insights or, you know, we call them clients Customer Insights Division because it helps validate a lot of your hypothesis. So using data, external data using client data, if possible, we have a gentleman that stood up a client advisory board. We can ask clients what we're doing, and we, as marketers know we're going down the right path. But in terms of the thing that will derail us, change management and having data on clients or prospects that helps validate the...

...assumptions you're making allows everyone to sleep a little easier at night when you're trying to make big changes. So I would say it has to be data driven and, you know, standing up a client insights team within within. My group at City National was sort of that transformational that stops focus groups of one and allows allows you to be the change agent that you want to be. I like the idea of a cab, a client advisory board that you meet. Let's just say quarterly, you've got a key group of clients, and this would be really helpful, I think, on the B to B front. Um, and it's a great way of bringing the collaboration you're doing internally. You bring the collaboration externally. Now you've got some influencers to possibly in the marketplace who can be a part of this journey. You're building something together. So the idea of a cab, because it does, it takes the focus group of one, and it just expands it. Now it's conversational, and it's a journey that you're taking together really, really great practical inside as we wrapped up great conversation today to Patrick, If someone is wanting to continue the conversation that we just started here, what's the best way for them to reach out? Connect with you? Say hello, Happy for anyone to reach out on LinkedIn, Patrick McCarthy and happy to have any conversation? It's something I'm incredibly passionate about. I don't have all the answers, I'll tell you when I don't have the answers. But I'm happy to tell you sort of mistakes, that fate along the way because there's probably been a few of those. Well, you know, that's that's a great point. I think We're all learning together on this journey, and the more that we can learn and transfer that knowledge to each other, the more that we will help each other grow together. A rising tide does raise all ships, and if we can work together to help people move beyond where they're at financially, get them to a bigger, better, brighter future. We're all just gonna get better. So Patrick, thank you for joining me on another episode of banking on Digital growth. There's been a lot of fun today, thank you. So appreciate it as always. And until next time be well, do good and make your bed. Thank you for listening to another episode of Banking on Digital Growth with James Robert Ley To get even more practical and proven insights. Along with coaching and guidance, visit Digital growth dot com slash insider to join a community of growth minded marketing and sales leaders from financial brands and fin techs until next time, be well and do good mhm.

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