Banking on Digital Growth
Banking on Digital Growth

Episode · 4 months ago

162) #NewStarsNow: Innovation Is Easier than You Think

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Most people are scared off from innovating because they are confused about what it means.

Innovation is not invention…

And financial brands don’t need to become Thomas Edison or Nikola Tesla to truly transform their industry.

For today’s guest, Matt Maxey, Head Of Innovation at Synovus, the difference is clear: Innovation is applying concepts from elsewhere to your own problems and opportunities, not creating something the world has never seen before.

Join Matt and I as we discuss:

- Why it’s paramount that financial brands innovate

- Why innovation is easier than you think

- The role of collaboration in the future of finance

You can find this interview and many more by subscribing to Banking on Digital Growth on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, or here.

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for Banking on Digital Growth in your favorite podcast player.

If you're not innovating, you're doing the opposite of innovating, which means you had just a period of time before your company or your idea ceases to exist. You're listening to banking on digital growth with James Robert Leigh, who believes there is no better time than now to educate and empower financial brands to gain a fresh perspective around future growth opportunities. That's why today's episode is part of the new starts now series, brought to you by Nimbus, who offers a complete set of tech tools and services, all designed and engineered to empower you and your financial brand to maximize your future growth potential. Greetings in Hello, I am James Robert Laigh and welcome to the one hundred and sixty second episode of the banking on digital growth podcasts. Today's episode is part of the new starts now series and I'm excited to welcome Matt Maxi to the show. Matt is the head of innovation at so Novas, a large southern regional bank with Hubble beginnings dating back to a Georgia textile mill and a simple act of kindness. Welcome to the show, Matt. It is so good to have you on today, Buddy. Thanks for having me. This is going to be fun. It is. It's already been a lot of fun in what we were doing in the in the quote unquote, in the Green Room we were we were hitting on some really important subjects around in evation and ethics and philosophy and humanity as a as a whole. Before we get in there, I always like to start off on a positive note. What's good in your world? Personally, professionally? It's always your pick. Yeah, so I'm a father of four children, they just seven and sixteen, and I'm very involved and their lives. Married to a wonderful wife, Catherine, and we live in middle Georgia. Lived in Georgia pretty much my whole life and and I love doing things with my family. Have a daughter who's a swimmer, got a couple sons who loves soccer, which was my sport, and have a kind of a shared love across the whole family in fishing and so we try to do fishing trips. We have a lake in our neighborhood and we try to get out there on the weekends, but I always try to do like a big fishing trip with at least my boys once a year or whether best down in the Gulf of Mexico or in a river somewhere. Next year we're going out west. We're going to hit up Montana and fish on the river out there. So I would say fishing, soccer and family for sure. Well, you know, when you get out to Montana, you definitely need, need to hit up Renee Newman. She's out in Montana right now. And when you're down here fishing on the Gulf coast, if you ever make it down to Texas Houston area, let me know and we'll take care of you. Okay, definitely will. That sounds great. Well, you know, it's it's so good. I think you know, you and I,...

...we had an opportunity to meet IRL in real life a while back at an event which was which was a lot of fun just and meet a lot of people. I mean it was kind of like the first time I think many of us are back in in the real world. In from that, you know, looking at at taking this conversation around innovation. Your you are the head of innovation and I know that many financial brands don't have a specific role like that. So for context for the dear listen to what? What exactly does that mean? Head of innovation. What do you do? That's that's a really good question and I'll give you a kind of a funny answer and then a serious names of the funny answer is I'm I'm eleven months and we created this role at the first part of the year and I'm still figuring it out. In all honesty, there's a lot of collaboration going on across our company and you know the the serious part of that answer is, you know, my job is really to do two primary things. It's to help our organization see differently and therefore think differently, and then do differently, and I'll probably repeat that a few different times throughout our conversation today, but in provide some examples. But you know, seeing differently like getting beyond the the mental framework that we have as bankers, MMM and and in years past and debt dates pass of what that means are, frankly, doesn't mean for the next decade, and then doing differently. I really spent a lot of time trying to equip our lines of business and internal stakeholders with new capabilities, whether that's, you know, things like lab as a service or introductions defintex solutions or, you know, working with connecting them with universities and evaluating new talent and, you know, evaluating new skills and building plans, and so a lot of collaboration and I'm also incubating a few business models with them to test, and so that's really exciting. You know, new opportunities for revenue and growth for us and you know, frankly, that's something that I really enjoy as well. So it's kind of the primary things I've been focused on in the first eleven months on this journey. But I'm having a blast. I love that see think and do differently. You know, you mentioned being a soccer and a fishing family. My wife and I, we have four kids and we're a running family. Last night we had a Monday mile meet at the school. Every every month we go. The school hosts a running club, essentially, and my kids have always been top runners and so I literally walked to the door last I said, what are we going to run a marathon? And my kids are nine, seven five, so I'm looking forward to that. But but whatever we were running, I was listening to a podcast. It was with Peter Diamandis, and you know big thinker himself, and one of the things he said, I typed this down, he said we...

...don't know how to think other than we know how to think. Like it, like we just what we know. Is kind of what we know. And being eleven months into this role here, what have have been some of your biggest wins that that you've experienced? You touched on a few of them, but if you could maybe say, looking back over the last eleven, twelve months, this is this is what I feel really, really good about, from from this idea of innovation and helping others see, think and do differently. Yeah, so, you know, one of the primary things that I care a lot about is meeting with teams and leaders and helping them evaluate areas of opportunity. If you think about, you know, banking products traditionally over the last few decades, as you look over the next five to ten years, fundamentally those products will still be needed. Right folks still need liquidity to build and grow their businesses. They still need a place to put assets into, you know derive movement of those assets and kind of the tangential things that go around that. Right now, there will be other things that will come out of innovation and some of the trends we're seeing globally today and finance. But what I like to do is to kind of help them stop and think about if we look at just an example, whether that's a blockchain use case, they how might we imagine utilizing this thing MMM to fundamentally change or remove roadblocks, remove friction or create create a competitive advantage? So that's one area that I focused in on. Another one is providing industry introductions. We've put a lot of effort into, you know, building strong relationships with finext, with with venture capital entities, with the education centers in our in our markets, whether that's universities or schools, and so I spent a lot of time in the community too. So making those connections and bringing those back in and then pushing those out. Yes, person Novias, is a big part of what I do. What's a you know, what I would call a commonly held belief about innovation that others might have in the industry that you would disagree with, because I see two sides of the coin here. Were somewhere like pro innovation and others they might they might say I believe in innovation, but then practically applied it kind of just falls flat. So maybe what's a belief that you're seeing at a Mac will level that you would disagree with around innovation? I don't know if it's a belief so much is somewhat of a miss conception maybe. I think a lot of times individuals confuse innovation with invention. HMM, you know, invention. Right Edison with the lightbulb their innovation principles. He used ten thousand us, you know, just things that didn't...

...work as how he viewed it right before he got to his final working predatype. But we don't have to invent a light bulb to drive value for our customers and for our shareholders in our team members right and ultimately our industry right. And so I think that there's a common, you know, misunderstanding there that you have to come up with something that's completely unique in order for it to be innovation. And when reality, you can look at a problem or an opportunity, whether it's disruptive nondisruptive, and I fook a lot of I focus a lot of my time and efforts, particularly in the market place, looking at disruptive things and how we can take advantage of them and frankly, avoid being disrupted and just based on current trends, there's going to be more opportunity there. Right from that perspective. But how do we take this thing, if it's a problem or an opportunity, and maybe bolt something unique on the side of it, just small like just change up a way that we deliver something or a way that we add a feature to it or the speed in which we do it or the economics behind it. Right. There's there's a whole pick list of ways that you can kind of think about this, but I would just say that one fundamental thing. Invention is not innovation. That's a great that's a great thing. Both require a discipline. Yes, in that that that is the fundamental thing. That's where you actually build muscle on the bench press. Is the discipline part. That's a great point because because I see some challenges in and maybe even internal conflict that bankers and financial brand leaders they feel like they need to quote unquote, invent something new to where it's really taking something that's good, making it even better, taking it from good to great, optimizing, improving. So it's a really great distinction here for someone who's listening, because I hear this all the time. Maybe it's themselves personally, maybe it's some a CO worker or a colleague. They're like, you know what, not I'm just, I'm I'm not, I'm not that creative, I'm not that innovative. What what would you say to maybe once again help them think or help them see, think and do differently, because that's the construct that they've built in their own mind? Right. Yeah, so let me say this. Innovation is one hundred percent team work, whether your team is five people or whether it's an executive team or whether it's an entire organization. And so the first thing I would say is, if you don't think that you can get there, you know, from a starting point on your own in formulating your thoughts and what you want to go find a couple people who care about that thing and, you know, look for out of the box thinkers, look for asymmetrical thinkers, look for folks who challenge the status quote. And then the second thing I would say is, and this is really important, this is leadership, one of one stuff, but I think it kind of reinforces the question you're asking. Find something...

...to read. I think you and I were talking just in the prep leading up to this that you love to read. I love to read less, but I do love to read as well. Read something every day and learn something from it that you didn't know the day before. And I think you know part of what I'm trying to do here at the bank and I think it's really important, regardless of where you set in the Organization of what your role is, is to become familiar with everything around you as best you can, because a lot of times, I think the blinders that we get, at least, and I'll relate this in the banking and finance because that's the industry I sit in. I think we try to look for innovation in terms of what can I do differently? You're better only in my industry right and reality of it is is so much of what we can learn will come from others and others outside of the industry that we're in. So you could take a concept that's killing it. I'm just going to make up something in you know space expiration and apply it to finance and although it may not be this massively innovative thing that could been doing it for twenty years in you know space expiration, but apply it to finance and it could be revolutionary? Yes, right. And so you know, again back to the invasion innovation versus invention. You don't have to come up with something that is unique in the history of the world in order to innovate. Take out because and concepts from others and apply them to your problems and opportunities, and I guarantee you you'll come up with not only a primary list to focus on, but a backlog longer than you can get to in any reasonable amount of time. And if you do that and surround yourself with people who are kind of like what I describe, you've got the basic ingredients of a really awesome innovation practice. I think you know it. I used to have a keynote back in the day called look outside to grow inside, and it was basically taking the top five to ten innovative ideas that I was seeing outside of the industry and then bringing them back inside the industry with some practical application. And I like this idea. You've touched on this before. It's collaboration. It you can't do this in a vacuum, you can't do this alone. How important is it to not just look inside for collaboration? But you mentioned the Finn Text. You mentioned some of the universities going outside of the common group and bringing others and maybe even co collaborating with customers. Like, what does that look like in practice? Maybe? What are some of the methodologies that you're using to to to put innovation into a practical sense? Yeah, so I start from a premise of everything that has the ability to great be great is going to come from something beyond myself, and so you know, I'm never going to be able to go into a room and come up with the best ideas. that.

That's that's fundamental principle behind innovation. And so another one I would say is in addition to doing things and taking lots of reps with a team, is to do just that, take lots of Reps. you have this saying in agile methodology, you know, design and code, development, deployment, you fail fasts fill forward. Well, that's true. Whether you're being agile with a concept or agile with a practice or agile with code and deployment, it doesn't matter. The goal is to try something and and and iterate on it and so you get it exactly where you want it to be. Yeah, obviously want to do that with this least amount of cost risk in time as possible, and so I would say those two things are fundamental. With regard to relationships. Look, you know it's to Novous and, I would say in finance in general, we're never going to build everything we need. There are brilliant minds and finance and technology that are out there that we can tap and build partnerships with and we're already doing that, have done that and we'll continue to do that. That will help us power our business models in our strategies and that's critical because it helps us do it at scale, it helps us do it in the best possible way and it helps us to do it faster. And so we don't want to, you know, be a shot that builds everything ourselves. We will do that strategically, but but by and large, you know, our partnership appetite is significantly increasing for the reasons I just describe, and with the evolution of technology and just the brilliant in application of technology in the areas of finance and in areas maybe beyond finance that we have interests in. That that to me is just a win win proposition. Partnerships are critical outside of your organization, both from an idea and kind of pulling in and discussing, in coming up with a plan, but then execution and support critical. Today's episode of banking on digital growth is brought to you by Nimbus, who beliefs in creating even better financial services for all, better access, better experiences, better value, all while supporting the entire customer journey. And how do they do this? Offering end to end niche banking solutions that you can buy or build, providing accountability beyond the technology and prioritizing and pactful, intentional innovation, instead of chasing features, ready to transform what is and create what's next. Learn more at nimbuscom. Right and it that's it's something that I've talked about many times before. Collaboration is far greater than competition. In the world that we're in now allows for collaboration in all types of different ways. I would say, even at scale, you don't necessarily have to even be in the same room. What kind of like we're doing here. I mean, I'm learning so much from from the conversation, and I hope the dear listener is as well. Someone's listening and they're like Matt,...

I want to I want to bring this type of thinking into my financial brand, into my organization, maybe into my Fintech. What, looking back on just your own journey here, what's one thing that you might do differently, knowing what you know today in hindsight? Yeah, that's that's a really interesting question and a fun one for me to think about. For my own personal journey, I think, and I don't know if I could do it differently. Maybe just aspirationally, I wish it was different. I wish I could have gotten to the point of my career. I'm roughly almost twenty years and Financial Services Combo between tech, product strategy and banking, and I would say I wish I could have gotten to the point earlier where I realized that I have more passion around the things that I'm talking about with you now, like I found my role. This is the thing I want to do until I don't work anymore and then beyond that I want to teach in a classroom. That's a separate conversation, but but I think I would say I wish I'd gotten to that point earlier where I knew that was where I really had a significant amount of passion. On the other hand, the experiences that I had whether it was in it year, in a product role or strategy, whatever it was, they helped shape my perspected and see the need for the thing that I'm describing and they were talking about today, all the more so I'm I'm not sure I would really change it, but but yeah, I mean aspirationally, I wish I could have gotten there earlier. You. Like I said, I'm eleven months in and nineteen twenty years in the industry and I've learned so much in the perspectives that I bring to this role and I'm a constant learner. I try to learn every every day, as I mentioned earlier. But yeah, I think it's aspirationally, I would say I wish I had gotten to this point earlier because I absolutely love what I do. I see the intrinsic value in it and I think it's essential for any company, whether that's Novas, banking, non banking. It doesn't matter. If you're not innovating, you're doing the opposite of innovating, which means you had just a period of time before your company or your idea ceases to exist. MMM and and so I think it's fundamentally critical and I feel like I was made for this type of role. I'm like I said before we hit record, I feel like you were kindred spirits here and you know, we born in a similar time. You and I are the bridge generation where the ex ciny or not, you know, pure blood Gen xers and we're not pure blood millennials. We kind of bridge the gap between the best of both worlds. If, if, looking out of this idea of innovation, innovation could potentially be a double edged sword to something you and I were talking about before we hit record. What might be some of the things we should be considering when thinking about innovation, not just for innovations sake, but maybe from more of a either a philosophical or be ethical perspective that maybe should be part of the...

...practice of innovation. Yeah, so, look, I'll give you a point in time viewpoint on this, just based on what we see in our industry, and you know what I would describe as the aspiring toward hyper digitization of products and services and interactions. I think that, you know, it's really important, both organizationally and strategically within your industry and individually, frankly, if you're an executive and individual contributor leading innovation and your company doesn't matter whatever your role is. You have to know what is that North Star that you're going for, what is that thing you're trying to achieve? I know what it is for me. I know what it is for some Novas. We talk a lot about it being a commercial bank here in the southeastern United States. And you know, I think that there's a real risk of in this you know, peer in which we find ourselves toward running after digital solutions and in some in some examples, even looking for problems to apply these solutions to. You can end up in a situation where you know you're skirting over ethical boundaries, you're having unintended implications for business models and in customer groups that you have or you're trying to acquire in reach, and so there are lots of examples we could talk about. There I would just say know what your North Star is in and make sure that you, individually in your organization, are not just following whatever the industry is saying or dictating to us. Should be important, the flavor of the day, flavor of the year. That's really, really important. And then think about, now that I know what my North Star is, how am I going to get there? And what are some asymmetrical or non traditional ways in my industry. Whenever that is to actually reach it, then you'll know that you're kind of mostly staying out of these high risk areas. HMM. It doesn't mean that it's a perfect way of staying out of high riscarriage, but it at least gives you the ability to know. You know, I'm not just following the masses here. I'm actually getting into something for very specific reasons and I'll know when I get there. Yes, then you have it and take an innovative approach to doing great point about following the masses. I've I've always kind of poked fun at this in the Banking Industry, Twenty Years Myself, I see a lot of R and D when it comes to quote unquote innovation. And that's not research and development. That is rip off and duplicate. It's looking at what someone else is doing and trying to apply that to my own situation. But I am unique. My Organization is unique. It's not like other with there might be similarities and like we're siblings, are close cousins, but following the masses, following the herd, could could take us down a very dang injurious path, I think you mentioned before, take us over the cliff. What could be some safeguards...

...that we put into place? You mentioned the North Star. I would call that purpose, purpose being the center of what we teach, the digital growth of blueprint. That provides us a filter or clarity, a litmus test. But what could be some safeguards to ensure that, as an organization, as a team, we're staying the tried and true and we're not following the masses because it's easy. It's easy to look out and see what others are doing and get excited about that, but then it might not lead to a to a positive place. What can we do to protect ourselves here? I would say a couple things. You know, first think about with your team. Well, first of all, make sure that you're clearly connecting what you're doing, whether it's from a Rd, being the research and Development Rd, not yours. Yeah, make sure that that what you're doing allignes to some component of your strategy. Right. And then a as you're iterating on those concepts, whether you're getting to, you know, beyond concept to MVP and then from MVP to commercialization. Build in a couple gates to ask questions like, yeah, why would a customer use this? How would this improve our customer or our team members laws? Will our shareholders applaud this? MMM, will the industry frown on us if we do this? Could we end up in ethical situation that we don't want to be in if we move forward in this area? Right, there's a whole series of you know, if you think beyond like the project gates, so just getting stuffed one and risks and all of that kind of stuff, think about the business model gates, and it really is not as simple as are we going to make are we going to make money? Is there an Roi can? I can I MPV this? It truly has to be thinking about it from a human perspective, thinking about it from a societal perspective. Mean, Loo, get everything that's going on in society. Like society values things that improve their lives, right, and and everybody has a different view on what that could be. So asking those kind of questions, especially if you're really off in green field areas, right, whether that's in finance or you know, doesn't matter. Pick your industry. Having those kind of questions built in and discussing that as your team and then putting it on paper so that you know exactly why you're doing it, with the value to the organization is what the expected outcomes are and, frankly, what some of those risks could be. And when you're in these new areas you may not always know what those risks are, but if you have general ways to kind of broad kind of the categoriesm talking about in their others I didn't mention and prodd some discussion around, I think that can be really helpful to think about as a group. You mentioned green filled blue sky. I'm you want. You want to go down a rabbit hole with me? I think this, this dart might be a little bit fun. Yeah, can I say no? I don't think I can, so let's do it. Well, you can say not. So why? That's why, that's why I always ask permission, because if you know, let's do this,...

...and we were talking about this before, because I think this is like the next big thing. I just don't know what the thing is or how to articulate it, or I'm still trying to wrap my mind around it and create a point of view. But the metaverse, I mean it's been in the news. You know. I think right now it's a lot of marketing hype. I think people are still trying to figure out what it is. But I'm also having to check my own biases at the door with this because if I go back in my mind, we're similar age. You know, let's just take year two thousand as a as a point in time the Internet was just starting to reach a precipice, maybe the metaverse, this whole idea of web three point I was like maybe ninety five, ninety six, but at that time in your two thousand I was eighteen, nineteen, twenty two thousand and two. I just saw so much opportunity with the Internet. I you know, but it is me being the forty year old. I am now creating a limitation in my own mind of what the metaverse could be based upon my own experiences. Like I'm you even reference that, like your experiences got you this point. You would probably wouldn't change anything. So I'm having to check a lot of my biases at the door and look at this as objectively as I can. What's your take on this, like how do we process this kind of next level of thinking? Because you mentioned we're trying to help people see things differently, think about things differently so that we can do things differently. I'm the same conversations in my mind. What's your take on this blue sky so metaverseid I mentioned to you kind of in disturb introductory conversation before we started recording at it's something that, honestly, I'm still trying to wrap my mind around. I think that there are very real drivers to whether it's that or, you know, distributed finance, or pick something that's an emerging trend, they're real drivers behind that that are human behavior oriented. Yes, and so, you know, without getting into all of the minutia of what some of those things may be, I guess I would just say in general, from my perspective kind of leading an innovation charge within a bank, I worry about things like what, what is that mean for the ability to interact with with people and and the humanization, hmm, that we have known in in person or, frankly, even virtual, like I can see you on a screen right now. Right, you know, scenarios for the history of the world. Yes, and and so I worry about you know, in finance, what happens when you take that away, right you would you make...

...different decisions with your money. What happens to yes, out truism with economics? What happens to caring for those in need in our communities? If you know, it's a company that's grown through acquisition of scores of community banks over, you know, hundred and thirty something years, that that's important to us. Like we care a lot about our communities and about caring for those who are underserved and and and and who need help economically and societally. And so I worry about that. I worry about all of a sudden, you know, do we find ourselves at a point where maybe society fundamentally looks very different? And that goes beyond like just the obvious kind of things that can happen? You know that the more near term progers I mention. I had a friend who got an OCULUS for his son and he got worn out during a game and forgot he was in a virtual setting and with the lean up against a table or something like that that was on his session that didn't exist in as in his room, and he felt face first and heard himself in their living room. We he was fine. We all laughed about it, but the reality of it is, if you get you know two, three, five, ten generations removed and that becomes mainstream, what does that mean for us, not only as humans but for our industry? And so there's a lot of questions and things I'm touching on that I don't have answers for, just kind of giving you some ideas about things that worry me in that area. On the other hand, does the technology have the ability to really improve our industry, in our companies and in society? Yet absolutely anything about learning in a virtual environment and other applications. But yeah, just I don't know that this this whole idea of the ethereal the things I can't touch and see this this digital twin, and I'm throwing out kind of tangential things here, but I don't know, I have a lot of questions in a lot of concerns. I you know, and I think what we're doing right now it's dialog, it's discourse, and I think it's through the dialog, it's through the discourse. We might not have the answers individually, but it's through the dialog, is through the discourse, it's through the open conversation that maybe we can arrive at that answer. But I think, if anything, my personal takeaway is trying to just keep an open mind and not let my own preconceived notions or bias shut something down. Because if I go back, and I think you know the progress of the last twenty years, what has been made, but it must come back to the central theme, thesis, purpose, North Star. This is about people, this is about humanity, and if we can always remember that, I think we're going to probably be in a...

...good place. But if we, if we lose the conversation to just technology for Technology Sake, we could it could, it could, like you talked about before, it could take us down a path that we might not want to go down. And so, when it comes to innovation, you know, human centered growth, human centered design, keeping people, human beings, your customers, your community, your employees, your team members, all at the central core and thesis. What's your take on that? I mean, is that kind of what we're all working towards here? Yeah, I think so, and I think you know. The other thing, going back to an earther question you asked, but it's related to this, you know, in addition to known with the North Start, like why do we exist? If I we, I mean like whatever the person is in the role that that they're thinking about, or the leadership team or the company or, whenever the cases. Know why you exist, right. You know, for us as a as a commercial bank in the southeastern United States, you know we value things like trust and personalization, speediness to to responding to needs, you know, reliability and knowledge and expertise likes. You can take some of these things that we're talking about that have tremendous value and benefit to our organizations and our business models and our companies and how you apply them and and how you oversee and monitor and control them right, it can help you get to what you're trying to solve for, and so I think knowing why you exist, knowing who you're trying to serve and why, can kind of provide some some guard rails. And some of these things we're talking about, as technology and the concept of Meta the metaverse, you know, expands in the industry and what those implications will be for us, there are guard rails there, and so you mentioned having an open mind. That's really important, but remember, when you're dealing with human beings, there have to be guard rails. Yes, right, I mean the the and there's lots of them. It's like we all value things, right, we all have different perspectives and the uniqueness and the diversity that comes from that. The human touch element, whether that's physical or virtual, right, that they're just these things that have to be there, right, fundamentally, and those are some of the things. Back to the question you asked is like, well, how do you really do that in a fully virtual setting? Right, yeah, like, I'll say this. A lot of us are just now starting to get around to getting into group settings again after the pandemic. It's like it's like holding your breath as a kid for two minutes underwater and like coming up for the first time. Like after that it's like the next thirty seconds is both this you know, moment of panic and like ultra joy, right, because you're you're like breathing oxygen for the first time. And what felt like years and in reality is like, if you look at the Coundar, like we're almost two years removed from us being fully virtual from each other worldwide. And so you start...

...getting into these in person settings, carefully, mask without mass what whatever the case is. But I speak for myself and I see another's it's like wow, like we love interacting with each other. Yes, like being around each other. And back to the very first thing we talked about, like innovation requires team and collaboration. I just I don't know how that happens when you're when you're in you know some of the scenarios that we just talked about. So, yeah, I fully agree and in lots of questions and have this guard rails. Know your North Star is, know why you exist, why you're using this thing. What? What problem you trying to solve? Are you just taken a shiny object and trying to find a problem to solve? Because that's probably a recipe for either spending money you don't need to or cause them problems you didn't need in the first place. Very true, and so yeah, lots more we could say there, but that's how I would think about it. Man, you've given us so much to think about. You've helped you, felt me see see things a little bit differently. You've and I think when you start seeing things differently, you're thinking will ultimately transform, which will then inform your actions, and you're doing on that next step. So I appreciate this. Appreciate the conversation, the dialog, the discourse with you today, Mac if if someone's listening, mad they want to continue to the conversation, they want to reach out, the connect with you, say hello. What's the best way for them to do that? It's reach out on Linkedin, probably the best way, Matthew Maxi, on Linkedin. Happy to talk to them and look, I guess one extras. A exportation I would leave with your audience is to say innovation can be intimidating. Don't let it. Make it very intentionally simple. Yes, differently, see differently, do differently. That's eighty percent of the discipline. Yes, so find people who you can innovate with and if I can never be of help, look me up and let's connect. Man, I appreciate that. Another the the the dear listener does as well. Matt thank you so much for joining me on another episode of banking on digital growth. This has been a lot of fun my pleasure. Thanks for having me as always, and until next time, be well, do good and make your bed. Thank you for listening to another episode of banking on Digital Growth with James Robert Laigh, brought to you by Nimbus, who is on a mission to bring the people, process and technology together to create new roots to growth. For financial brands and enable them to deliver outcomes. To learn more about how you can collaborate with Nimbus to maximize your future digital growth potential, visit www dot nimbuscom. Until next time, be well and do good.

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