Banking on Digital Growth
Banking on Digital Growth

Episode · 1 year ago

66) #ExponentialInsights: Facing Your Fears About Customer Experience Optimization During COVID w/ Sue Woodard

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

"Customer experience" seemed like just another big business buzzword.

Until 2020 hit.

All of a sudden, we were forced to reinvent, reimagine, and revisit the whole concept of customer experience.

We found immense opportunities for growth.

In this episode of Banking on Digital Growth, I talk with Sue Woodard, Chief Customer Officer at Total Expert, a fintech software company that built the first enterprise-grade experience platform purpose-built for the modern financial institutions.

We talked about:

  • The time Sue went swimming with sharks and what she learned about life
  • What holds us back from optimizing customer experience
  • Why you need to press "pause" on digital and have a face-to-face conversation

You can find this interview, and many more, by subscribing to Banking on Digital Growth on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, or here.
 

...every interaction that a customer has with the brand is an opportunity to build trust or a road test. You're listening to. Banking on Digital Growth with James Robert Lay, a podcast that empowers financial brand marketing, sales and leadership teams to maximize their digital growth potential by generating 10 times more loans and deposits. Today's episode is part of the exponential insight Siri's, where James Robert interviews the industry's top marketing sales, and Fintech leaders sharing practical wisdom toe exponentially elevate you and your team. Let's get into the show. Greetings in Hello, I Am James Robert Ley and welcome to the 66 episode of the Banking on Digital Growth podcast. Today's episode is part of the exponential insight, Siri's and I'm excited to welcome Sue Water to the show. Sue brings over 30 years of financial services and mortgage experience, along with Strategic Vision as the chief customer officer at Total Expert, where her focus is on helping customers achieve greater productivity and long term success. That's a bit of a thrill seeker. She's actually skydived over Vegas. She's walked on hot coals. She's hardly down Route 66. She's running ragged, are through the desert and has Cage dive with great white sharks, But she claims nothing is more exciting than parenting. Her daughter in Minneapolis, who just graduated from college. Correct. She did. Graduated from college. Buy a house. It's full on adult ing as they say that Zatz where things get fun and I'm glad that you're joining today for this conversation. So you know I'll never forget. The first time that you and I met it was in Austin, Texas. It was at the American Bankers Strategic Growth Conference. I was facilitating a session. You picked your head in the back of the room. I was saying a couple of words and you gave me two thumbs up and I'll never its's seared. It is seared into my memory, and you know, it's been great getting to know you watching just your own personal growth, watching the growth of total expert. But I do have to ask on a personal side, walking on hot coals and cave diving with sharks. What's what's the back story on those right there? Because I was like that Z interesting s. So I have to tell you, I've always had as a bit of ah life philosophy and 99% of the time it served me very well, is that I would always rather try something. Given the opportunity, I'd rather try something and maybe wish I hadn't then not try something later on. Wish I had. And so that has led me into a lot of very interesting places, including the cage diving, including the, you know, skydiving, the Harley ing, the Andi. And you know what? I wouldn't trade a second of it when I think, especially right now, the world that we're living in when we can't...

...necessarily go do all the things we want to dio. I'm really blessed and grateful that I chose to say, Say yes to so many things and opportunities. You know, it's it's It's so good to hear you say that because I think it was Eleanor Roosevelt. If I'm not mistaken, do one thing a day that scares you, and that's actually that's actually part of Lululemon's, uh, you know, branded mantra on their bags exactly right. And so to see you live that out particularly like you said. Now it's something that I'm a big believer into. You kind of lean in to the fears and you learn a lot and speaking about this idea of learning when you reflect back on the previous year on 2020 what have been some of the greatest lessons that you have learned? You know, in the space of marketing for financial brands, leadership for financial brands sells for financial brands of what are some of the greatest lessons when looking back that that you've learned and gained? Yeah, I think so. The top one that I would say, is really just the unbelievable importance of the customer journey and the customer experience. And now that I know that's like all the customer experience is kind of a buzz word that embodies paying attention to you right now. But I think we all got extremely challenged in 2020 on what does that look like in really revisiting that and we imagining that? And in fact, some of the mistakes I saw people made is when they didn't reinvent, reimagine, revisit, take a look at some of the way that they were communicating. Um, what the words were with the cadence was with the channel was that they were using if you didn't like pretty early on last year really take a hard pause and in your sales and marketing efforts, make sure that that customer experience was reimagined to suit the new environment that we're still somewhat operating in. It was a huge opportunity to to make a difference and a huge opportunity to potentially make some mistakes. And we saw some of both last year. You know, we certainly saw some brands that very quickly and very early on stopped and said, Okay, people are gonna be coming into branches and along with that people are in right now, more so than any time and you know, it least probably since 2000 and eight. There in a lot of people are in financial crisis in need education there. Perhaps, you know, if not themselves, one degree of separation away from someone who is wondering, How the heck does this P P P thing work? How am I going to pay my bills? Do I still have to keep paying my mortgage? What's gonna happen if how do I educate myself? I mean, and and literally what I think one of the fantastic things was is as everybody looked at that customer journey and shows how they were going to jump into that, I think, in 2000 and eight financial services, banks, mortgage, etcetera was we were kind of considered the bad guys, right? Remember being on a flight, you'll appreciate this and and sometimes on a flight, it's my only time Thio not talk to someone, right? And just a little quiet time. The guy next we wanted to talk, wanted to talk...

...and he asked, You know, finally he's like, you know, what do you do for a living? And I told him that I was in, you know, banking and mortgage. And he said, Oh, and he took his arm off the armrest next to me, put in his headphones and didn't say where the rest of the flight. So, um, you know, we were really seen, as you know, just to kind of the, you know, the worst of the worst in 2000 and eight. But the difference now is that we get to compete the ones to step in and actually buy that education, that knowledge, that guidance that people are so desperately seeking. It's funny you talk about being on airplanes and taking flights, and that is your Solis and I'm right there with you because it's like, you know, you go and you're speaking at events. You're you're meeting people and I'll never forget. It's like the flight home, particularly the flight home. It's like I just get on the plane. You know, I put my headphones on and I don't way don't have, like, traditional TV and and and don't even watch much streaming. We've canceled Netflix. Actually, Now, you know, in the pandemic we did subscribe Thio Ah, couple of learning platforms. My wife and I masterclass being one, and we've we've actually enjoyed learning together in the pandemic. But But yeah, you you get that soulless and that's your thinking time. That's your reflection time. And that's something that I kind of do miss when we think about where at. But I want to focus on these two areas that you've identified these great lessons customer journey, customer experience. Some have leaned into that, as as we were talking about before, leaning in tow, the opportunities leaning into some of the fear some have decided toe, maybe just play it safe. Let's look at both sides of the coin there because customer journey customer experience. They're they're they're intertwined. What is holding some back? Do you feel from making the transformations needed to optimize both the customer journey and customer experience in this post covert world that we're still navigating through? You know, it's interesting that I still hear ah, lot of, ah, lot of financial brands say that they're constrained by regulations from here, like from from truly having a very across the silos within the institution that they're somehow constraint. In fact, I'll tell you a story. I will. The bank shall go unnamed. But the bank by bank at I went into And I remember that the gentleman telling me the banker telling me very proudly that they did not communicate through between their different channels and hey said so you know, the checking account depository. You know, they're not communicating with our wealth area and that Z that are lending area, and I kind of pushed him on. And I said, you know, because we're seeing it was quite, you know, a bit of pride. And I said, You know, it actually be helpful for me as the customer, if you did, you know, because otherwise you just know checking account sue and credit cards too, and, you know, wealth account suit. But you're not. You don't know, Sue,...

...and you should, because I've been banking with you for 30 years, and so he kind of talked about it, but it was a regulatory thing. Um, and so I question and I would push on how much of that? You know, it's true. I mean, certainly their fears out there. And I get it, you know? I mean, we don't have to, you know, name the names of the, you know, the brands that that kind of brought this big issue to light about really inappropriate cross selling and the things that were actually very bad practices going on. But I feel like, yeah, I've addressed them. I've actually addressed that on on on this podcast because it is e. I think it does create a bit of fear for those that you know they want to do the right thing, but it plant some seeds of doubt in their mind. And when I hear you, you share that story. I can't help but think that if I was to go to the doctor, I was to go to my GP and my GP was like, You know, we don't really talk to your cardiologists and we really don't talk to your neurologist and we really don't talk to your room. We just We're just here, and that would really kind of put me in a precarious place and I would start asking a lot of questions and I But I think that because there's so much of a correlation and connection between financial health and physical health, how do we get those who might be, you know, have some seeds of doubt? How do we get them to transform their thinking so that they can transform they're doing and apply the necessary changes when it comes to optimizing customer journeys? Customer experiences? Well, what I would ask the consideration would be or suggest that it would be is more of a focus on, you know, listening to the customer and being responsive to it across all data points that you have versus selling something to the customer that they may or may not want right, because I actually think that the a little bit more of that siloed approach that they think is protecting them. Also, it lends itself Thio inappropriately pushing, You know, a product that may not be appropriate for someone if you don't have the full picture when you've got all of the data points across that entire customer. And and there's so much out there Thio that you should know about someone when you could see all their patterns and their credit and their history, all these different things I think it lends itself to If you're the, you know, it's like that that phrase to the man with a hammer. Everything looks like a nail, right? Well, to the marketer for, you know, just X channel inside of a bank or ex. You know, business division. Everything looks like an opportunity for s thing. You know, you're the auto marketing person. Everything is gonna look like an opportunity for an auto loan, or it might be really inappropriate. So I would suggest that looking at it from a broader perspective every single time a big life event happens for someone, it almost always in some point is gonna require their financial institution. You know, somebody is getting ready to...

...go to college. Somebody is getting married. Somebody is getting divorce. Somebody is retiring in all of those cases, you need the guidance of great financial services firms, and it should be the place where you've got you know, hopefully, most of your your information, your accounts and your assets and so forth, and so would be Think about what enjoy that would be for somebody to be able to know that and be responsive to your life, events and your life experiences and be able to serve up the right things rather than either saying the wrong thing or saying nothing. You know, you've probably heard Joe Well, you say our CEO say many times every interaction but a customer has with the brain is an opportunity to build trust or a road trust. Every interaction that they have is an opportunity to build trust or a road trust. And I would would further say, sometimes it's not the interaction that you're having. It's the absence of an interaction. You know it Z. It's about making deposits, making micro deposits into a person's trust bank their trust fund, if you will, that sits between their ears. It can take weeks, months, even years to make enough deposits for them to take a specific action and it could take minutes to deplete that trust fund altogether because of a bad recommendation, a bad experience. And so, you know, I was having a conversation with Jodi, who's the chief marketing officer of Social Assurance the other day and we were talking about She comes from the retail world, you know, working in retail, working at Macy's, just as I I mean, you know, my my last job almost 20 years ago, before, before starting this company was working at Old Navy and we had some of the best training. It's illustrating, and it was really about leaning in to the customer literally as they walk through the door. The challenge, though, that we see now in the Post go, but they're not walking through the door from a financial services perspective. What are the opportunities now? Because I you know, we've talked to some of the challenges. Let's look at some of the opportunities where the opportunities to lean into their life to use your words kind of these life moments. I'm thinking about your daughters, you know, she's she's graduated, she's she's adult ing so much opportunity to help guide her through her life because money. You know, we're finding even through our own primary research outpost Cove. In 80 85% of people are saying they're feeling financially stressed. What can financial brands due to lean into these moments for people to take a proactive stance in their life and not the reactive one? We've been so used to waiting for people to walk through the door and raise their hands saying I need help because that time by that time, it's sometimes too late. I would say There's a couple different things and, you know, one of the beautiful things that everybody...

...listening to this that we all have in common is we think about these these puzzles, regardless of what your role is, I would suspect every single person listening to this has relationships with financial institutions, right? So we are in and of ourselves our own little secret shoppers way because we could see the problems ourselves because we're engaged with, you know, whether it be a bank or credit union or, you know, whatever kind of lender we could see where some of the gaps are. So I would say that there's a couple of different things in terms of what can people dio one of the things And I've seen some brands doing this really well is, you know, it's like, I don't know if it's a phrase or if it's ah verse. But, you know, sometimes we do not have because we do not ask sometimes purely asking some of the questions rather than a than making assumptions on the data that you see. I mean, sometimes we, you know, people get all caught up with being predictive and ai and all these things were to guess what it is. How about we actually asked some of the questions, right. How about we are asking consumers, You know what would be most helpful to you right now in the space that you're in? Are you more like this in your life? Are you more like you're starting a business? Are you, you know, struggling financially. Need some help on, you know, budgeting And what you know, foreclosure relief looks, you know, whatever you know, asking some of these questions. Where you out in your life Are you starting a family? Are you getting you know, ask some questions and and then provide the second big piece of it is being responsive and educating. There's such a massive opportunity, education, and I still see so much information coming out that is promoting. We have this great rate on this thing. I mean, everyone's got a great rate on all the things right now, like we don't need that kind of messaging right now. But what we need. And I think keeping an eye towards it may be for the person that you're talking Thio. And it may be one a person who is again one or two degrees of separation away from that person who needs to hear it and talking again, educating, not assuming what people? No, I think there's, I think it's a very common fallacy that when you're in a marketing seat, sometimes you forget after X number of years. You kind of feel like, well, already knows this. You know, there's all kinds, people who don't know all kinds of things, that the curse, the curse of knowledge, right, right and especially is the world changes? Maybe you didn't know it, but it's different now. You know, things are changing so quickly, so I just think such a huge focus on education is a huge way. I love that you described it as a trust fund because it's it's very true. And and that's how you build a relationship. And I you know. And I guess the third thing I would say in addition to that would be really making sure with your digital interactions that you're paying attention to what the and utilizing technology that allows you to be responsive through a variety of different channels. Um, you know, if the person seems to be indicating that they'd rather be doing this via text, then you know what? Figure out how to switch to text but not lose the conversation. If the person takes a certain action, it should tell you something that you could go somewhere different on that journey with them rather than the old school of. I'm just gonna bang this message on their head 10 times. See what happens at the end of it, right? It's it's utilizing again. The technology that is out there to be...

...able to be more responsible, a little more intelligent with your communication technology has transformed our world, and digital has changed the way consumers shop for and buy financial services forever. Now consumers make purchase decisions long before they walk into a branch if they walk into a branch at all. But your financial brand still wants to grow loans and deposits. We get it. Digital growth can feel confusing, frustrating and overwhelming for any financial brand marketing and sales leader. But it doesn't have Thio because James Robert wrote the book that guides you every step of the way along your digital growth journey. Visit www dot digital growth dot com to get a preview of his best selling book, Banking on Digital Growth, or order a copy right Now for you and your team from Amazon. Inside you'll find a strategic marketing manifesto that was written to transform financial brands, and it is packed full of practical and proven insights. You can start using today to confidently generate 10 times more loans and deposits. Now back to the show. So I hear a couple of things that I'm gonna synthesize and distill down these three points. Ask number one educate number to engage number three, and I can't help but think about you know, one of the acronyms that we teach this this idea of going all in you ask you listen, you learn, and then you can lean in to the problems that people have, and then I'll offer them the prescription or the solutions to their pain points. But what a novel idea to just ask. And I can't help but think of. You know, I shared some insights around this. It was episode number 57 giving a framework that financial brands can use that M. L O's can use on the marketing side, the sell side, the leadership side. The question is, how do you want to grow in your life? And it's another because I think of acronyms. It's the only way this a D d brain can remember stuff. So I have tow do word association. So grow its you know, what are your goals? What are the roadblocks that stand in your way and then one of the opportunities that you'd like to create? And we always framed this around a specific time period, and I call this the coffee and cocktail question. Imagine Sue, you and I are having this conversation. Let's just say, uh, two years from now we're having, we're having coffee and you're in a really good place and I ask you So what has happened over your life? You know, over the last two years to get you in this really good place and you stop, you pause. You take a sip of your coffee and you think, and you reflect what has toe happen for you to feel good about the progress that you've made. And, you know, we're doing more training around this. This methodology of how you want to grow is part as a as...

...a larger part, really. It's it's changed management, and it's something that we've been working with financial brands on internally. But we see the same opportunity to use this exercise externally toe have conversations with prospective account holders and with current account holders to dig into their unique situation. Because if you think about what is the role of marketing, what is the role of cells and what is the role of leadership? They all intersect that were wanting people to act. Marketing is wanting to, you know, we have calls to action cells, is wanting to lead to the clothes and leadership is wanting to guide people to the future, and it all requires someone toe act and there's another acronym. It takes awareness and awareness comes from what? Asking good questions. You have to help someone become aware off what their opportunities are, what's standing in their way, what their goals are. Number one. The second thing to see what does it take? It takes courage to move forward and to your point, coming back to your three. We asked to create awareness. We can use education to build courage, and when you have awareness and increase encourage that ultimately will lead to someone's eventual transformation. And that transformation will happen through engagement. So awareness plus courage leads to transformation. I love that I'm taking notes here like this thing. This is good stuff. I love that I'm the same way I love a good afternoon. So that's Ah, but that's brilliant. The awareness, the courage to move forward and transformation. And and I love actually you kind of drilling down in some of the ass point because it it feels obvious. And honestly, sometimes it's a simple as you know, relationships. I'll have some similarities between the right and it's It's largely any great relationship is purely, you know, generally based on relationship right, especially relation you know, some kind of relationship where trust is in very important to it. It's all about the communication. And so it ISS asking good questions and then truly listening and understanding What is What is heaven for you and what is hell for you? And there's, You know, it's interesting that you reminded me of there's these four questions. I heard this from a sales trainer a million years ago. His name is escaping that he was like old school used to use, like the overhead projectors. Some of your audience won't even remember those. But you know what I'm talking about, right? Exactly. Uh, Brian, Brian Tracy E. I love him so but one of the things he said and talking, I'll never forget this because I think about this a lot when I'm talking to current customers and it's just it's helpful is more less. Start, stop. Okay, so it's four questions that you ask somebody that you've got a current you know, a current customer. What is it? I could be doing more for you. What do you wish? That we would be doing more of less. What do you What do you wish you could be doing a little bit less of...

...what's going on right now That that you wish was happening a little less What am I not doing it all right? Now that you wish I would start doing, you know, just a gap. Where were we haven't done something. You want us to start doing it and what's happening right now that you wish we would just stop doing it all together more or less not Stop for extra fun and bonus points, bringing home to your spouse apart. You know, these air exciting, you know, fun questions. But they're really good relationship building questions. And I think, why not even be thinking about that with our customers? I mean, they're they're they're full of information when you ask them some of these open ended questions, you know? And I think this is the challenge for the dear listener. When was the last time that you in marketing cells or leadership you created the space to stop and pause to stop doing digital to stop and pause to have these conversations? Because I think we get so caught up in the doing the transaction we need to do Mawr and Mawr and Mawr and and and and to this point, you know, you add things to your quote unquote to do list. You shared a profound linked in post recently to start the new year, which was, instead of, you know, to do, listen, adding more things to the to do list, you wanted to take a different approach and making a not to do list or what I call a don't do list. Can you expand upon this thinking because, you know, this might be the Onley Way that marketing cells and leadership teams can create the space and time to have some of these very, very powerful conversations that build relationships which ultimately build trust. And this takes time? Yeah, yeah, well, it's interesting cause it goes back to a conversation we're having before we started our our official interview here, right where I tend to be a person, maybe like a lot of folks listening here, who I say yes to things right. And so I say yes, opportunities we're talking about, you know, like skydiving, cage diving with sharks and Harley ing, and you know some of these different things, but I tend to say yes to a lot of things. And one of the things yes I've had to be extremely disciplined about is what to say no to because the phrase I used is behind every No, is a better. Yes. And Warren Buffett says that the most successful people in this world are the ones who say no. These are the difference between the successful in the really successful. Are the really successful say no to almost everything. And what that does is when you think about so behind every knows about her. Yes, meaning if you really just kind of positive. Very intentional about what are you doing? And how are you spending your time? And are you just doing this because you're just in the you know you're in the fray, you're in the church and you're just doing the thing because the next thing has to go out, you know, and being able to just pull up even for a day. Sometimes people say I don't even have a day to do it. Well, imagine you got sick. You suddenly have a day. So just pretend you're sick, have a day and stop, and really critically look at...

What are you doing and what are the things that you need to stop doing to create the space, to do the things that you should be doing? And I think in a lot of cases people probably know some of the things that they like to be doing that they should be doing. Maybe it is asking some questions. Maybe it is educating, but it's I I think it's carving out the time to be very intentional rather than just continuing down a path that we're just doing the thing that we do because this is this is what we dio and part of that I would say, You know, one of the things we certainly did it at Total Expert and I would highly encourage people to do, in fact, the beginning of years, a beautiful time to do it is really map out. What does that current customer experience look like? And people that I will talk to sometimes get super hung up on Well, I got to find the right software, the right journey, mapping tools, I tell you, know what got a stack of post it notes and a Sharpie and just do it, you know, map out for your wallet. Hackley. Exactly. It does not have to be super complicated, but visually, you start to see the gaps immediately. Right? And then once you see that, then you start saying Okay, there's a gap gap, gap. Let's prioritize those gaps. How do we start plugging them in and then really documented? You know, it's another big thing we did is way, really. Once we saw we have plenty of gaps in our own journey, right? But documenting. What does your customer plan look like? You know, and I just think of every financial brands, doesn't have the ability to kind of pull out their plan and say, This is what our customer, our ideal customer journey and customer experience really looks like. And if I would also really encourage people to think about critically about what the experiences and test it, not just what you think the experiences, because you're sending out the things and you think that their land, yeah, there's that's where the objectivity comes in. That's where we've been doing so much more digital secret shopping studies. And they're so enlightening because we have a perceived like awareness. Or, you know, perception is reality. that we think something is happening, but in reality it's really not. And that's creating a lot of pain on coming back to Joe's perspective. You know, it's it's it's depleting the trust bank. And so when we when we think about this idea of customer journey, customer experience, we've had a lot of good, very practical things that we could start to apply. For example, the Post it notes, The White board. This doesn't have to be high tech. It could be low tech. But that low tech begins to create a high touch experience when it comes to customer journey. Customer experience. What is a common belief that this industry has around customer journey customer experience that you just passionately disagree with? Ah, belief this industry has that I passionately disagree with. Yeah, like, what is a common belief that the industry has, with customer journey customer experience? E. Guess I would say that that that they're the hero of their story, right? I I would say that I viscerally disagree that the bank credit union, the tech company, whoever it is that you are the hero in your story. This really disagree with that...

...your customer is the hero of the story, and you can only have one hero in a story. And it's not about you. It is about your customer. And there is such a glaringly missed opportunity, in my opinion, to raise up customers and tell their stories. That is the most. I mean, we're both, you know, we both do a lot of reading. That's what's compelling. Human beings are like it's in our DNA that we're attracted to stories, right? You're attracted to stories you're attracted to faces. I think this genetically goes way back in our history with how we're wired. And so often those opportunities there just missed. Tell a story. Tell a story about your customer, your customers, the hero, and I still like I said, we're all part of our own kind of secret shopping enterprise Just because we've we've got we. We all have bank accounts in different places. Think a little bit about the stuff that you get from your financial institution doesn't grab you. Are you already like this before even open it? I know this is probably not gonna be interesting. It is so true. You know, that story and narrative has been such a big personal study of what we've done over here over the past. Going back, really. We started that study four or five years ago out of frustration, of going to speak at conferences, in the hearing speakers from the stage. You know, you have to tell a better story, and it made me mad. Well, what? That's great, I agree. But what does that look like? And so, you know, doing a lot of Panther anthropological studies, you know, going back and reading narrative structure and literature structure. Joseph Campbell's The Hero with 1000 Faces. There's so much opportunity, I think, around this idea of anthropology and specifically digital anthropology to inject some humanity back into the digital experience. If there's one thing if there's one thing that you could recommend financial brand marketing cells and leadership teams to really commit to because it's not about adding 10 things. Thio the to do lists What is the one thing that you could recommend when it comes to optimizing the customer journey and the customer experience When we look out into the future, what would that one thing be? I guess it would be just to keep an unrelenting focus on that customer experience, and I know that that sounds broad. But what I would tell you is to you can use that as a North Star to get out everything that you're doing. How does this add Teoh? You know the experience for a customer that's actually, you know, sitting there. Is this really going Thio? Engage them? Is this really going to help them feel more engaged with us? Is this really going to make any meaningful impact on them? What does this do for them? Because again, I I and I could just gauge this by, you know, the marketing that I receive and probably lost folks listening. And hopefully lots of you were doing better. If you're here, you're probably very smart financial market, or I'd like to say, but but really being so thoughtful about what place does that plan does that...

...interaction build trust, or does it erode trust and keeping That is a central focus. There's so many things that are outside of our control, really. Just I feel like, you know, maybe it's naive to say that the numbers come, but when you put your customer first and you are communicating with them and really putting yourself in their seat and operating with huge empathy for for what they're going through on what they want and what they need and how they needed. And always gauging with that is your compass in your North Star. I feel like the metrics and the money will will follow. Absolutely put people at the center of all of your thinking. Put people at the center of all of your doing, and that will then lead to the opportunities required to maximize the financial brands digital growth potential. So this has been such a great conversation today. Thank you for all of the knowledge. Thank you for all of the insights that you have shared with with listeners. If anyone is listening and they have a follow up question, they want to connect, they want to continue the conversation with you. What is the best way for them to reach out? Say hello and find you? I would love that. You could certainly email me a suit dot woodard W 00 D a r D. No second w suit dot woodard a total expert dot com or follow man Lincoln. I'm pretty active out there, as are you, sir. And we'd love to see out. There is part of a Greek. Absolutely, Absolutely. Everyone is always welcome. Sue, you're doing great, Amazing work, You the rest of the total expert team. I wish you guys nothing but the best and thank you so much for joining me on another episode of banking on digital growth. Thank you, as always, in until next time be well, do good and wash your hands. Thank you for listening to another episode of banking on Digital Growth with James Robert Ley. Like what you hear. Tell a friend about the podcast and leave us a review on Apple podcasts, Google Podcast or Spotify and subscribe while you're there. To get even more practical in proven insights, visit www dot digital growth dot com to grab a preview of James Roberts bestselling book Banking on Digital Growth or order a copy right now for you and your team from Amazon. Inside, you'll find a strategic marketing and sales blueprint framed around 12 key areas of focus that empower you to confidently generate 10 times more loans and deposits until next time, be well and do good.

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