Banking on Digital Growth
Banking on Digital Growth

Episode · 4 months ago

171) #ExponentialInsights - Getting WISE to Customer Experience


Most customer experiences in financial services are ordinary. They’re boring.

That means all you have to do to stand out in our industry is create experiences that are a little bit better than ordinary.

But why stop there? Why not make them remarkable?

On the show today, Dan Gingiss, Chief Experience Officer at The Experience Maker, explains the nuts and bolts of his WISE framework for creating remarkable experiences that your customers can’t wait to share.

Join us as we discuss:

- What inspired him to write the book

- Why he believes traditional marketing is no longer enough

- The WISE methodology for creating better experiences

- The 10-day CX challenge

Mentioned during the podcast:


- Email Dan:

- Tweet at Dan: @DGingiss

You can find this interview and many more by subscribing to Banking on Digital Growth on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, or here.

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for Banking on Digital Growth in your favorite podcast player.

And when we create great experiences and remarkable experiences. The word remarkable is intentional because it means literally, worthy of remark, worthy of talking about. We can make our customer base our best sales and marketing people. You're listening to banking on digital growth with James Robert Laigh, a podcast that empowers financial brand marketing, sales and leadership teams to maximize their digital growth potential by generating ten times more loans and deposits. Today's episode is part of the exponential insight series, where James Robert Lay interviews the industry's top marketing, sales and FINTECH leaders, sharing practical wisdom to exponentially elevate you and your team. Let's get into the show. Greetings in Hello, I am James Robert Leigh, and welcome to the one hundred and seventy feet episode of the banking on digital growth podcast. Today's episode is part of the exponential insight series and I'm excited to welcome Dan Gingis to the show. Dan is a keynote speaker and customer experience coach who helps companies create remarkable customer experiences that become their best cells and marketing you see dance but fourteen years in financial services, including almost ten years at discover, where he led all design, development and customer experience initiatives on the discover cards flagship website, which directly and significantly contributed to discover winning a JD power award for the highest and customer satisfaction with credit card companies. Welcome to the show, dead it is so good to share some time with you today. I am excited to talk with you today. Thanks so much for having me on. Absolutely before we get into this idea of your book, the experience maker, I always want to start off with this a positive question, set things off and in a good step. What has been going well for you personally or professionally? Then it's always your pick to get started. Well. What's going well right now is that live events are finally coming back, and that is really exciting because I am never happier than when I'm on a stage talk get to people and inspiring them in this whole customer experience business, and it's been really tough to be doing that online, where you can't see people's eyes, you can't see the audience, you don't get the reaction. It's a really challenging and so certainly we've done it, just like everybody's had to do it, but I am so excited to get back out on the road and be in front of real people again. I'm right there with you. I know it's been a challenge. It's been hard. I typically speak ten, fifteen, twenty times a year at different events and when you go into this virtual space, we do the best to create an experience for the audience, for the the dear listener, even in the case of this podcast, but when you lose that human touch, you lose that human connection. It's very hard to, quote unquote, read the audience. If if there's one...

...thing, if you could to look back into all the speaking that you've done, what has been the most joyous part of that for you? It's really when somebody comes up to me afterwards and is so excited by what they just heard that they want to share their story with me. And when I get on stage, most of what I do is storytelling. I'm kind of a believer that you shouldn't believe me just because I'm the one on stage or I wrote the book. You should believe me because I'm sharing tons and tons of real life examples with you of companies that are doing this and are successful at it. So to me that's really where the credibility is. And so when somebody runs up to me and says, I got to tell you about something that I did up my business, or, even better, if they're inspired by something I said to go make a change on Monday or whenever they get back to the office, that's when I feel the best because really, you know, yeah, we we speak because it's a living and we get paid and we want to feed our children, but it's really when you can make an impact on somebody and they can say, man, I can do this. This is something I didn't think maybe was my responsibility or I didn't think I was capable of doing, but I can and going to that's what feels so good. Yeah, you give people help, you give them a sense of hope, you give them some inspiration and then they're like, I can do this, and then they go off and do it. Then you hear, you know, you know, three six months later, whatever that is, you're like wow, it's amazing, and I love the way that you frame this. It's like you're a your curator of stories, your curator of experiences to educate and to help others and you spit fourteen years and financial services. You won the Jad Power Award for customer satisfaction at discover, which you've shared as one of your your your great career experiences, your career achieve is but now you've written a great book, the experience maker, and that is now moved in the top spot. What was speaking about inspiration? What was your inspiration to write the book in the first place? Well, I have been collecting customer experience stories for a long time. I'm still collecting them, in fact you know that I just delivered a speech this morning and included several examples. It didn't make the book because I found them after the book was published. So I'm continuously building on a library, both from experiences that I have, from once I've observed, from once people send me, and so I feel like the the storytelling is what it gets me excited and I find that it's just a means of communication that gets audience members excited as well. And so the book was really about. Well, what if I, in a course of a keynote, I can maybe tell a dozen stories right, but what if I just threw the whole library at right and I there's got to be at least fifty stories in the book and I just thought it was really fun to kind of unload every story, because you never know which one... going to stick with somebody. And while they've all been vetted and I know that that audience members react to them, what I definitely find is, depending on the industry, depending on where they are in their own customer experience journey, certain stories appeal to different people, and so I felt like one of the things I could do was put enough stories in there that anyone who reads the books going to find at least a few that they're inspired by. Well, I love this, the where we're taking this story, because even in baking on digital growth, I have a chapter called story selling. And so every great story always begins with some type of conflict. We need some type of reason to move beyond the present state and you open up the book noting that traditional marketing is no longer enough. Why do you believe it? What's your take here? Well, first of all I should say that I come at customer experience from a Marketer's Lens because my twenty plus years in corporate America, that's what I did. I was in marketing almost all of that time, and so I now believe that if I never have to create another marketing campaign, it'll be too soon, because what's far more effective is to get your customers to do the marketing for you. And when we create great experiences and remarkable experiences, the word remarkable as intentional because it means literally worthy of remark, worthy of talking about, we can make our customer base our best sales and marketing people. And you know this as well as I do. It's so much more credible when someone else is talking about us then when we're talking about ourselves. So that's what I do, is I help companies try to find those customers and create the types of experiences where, you've been through it, you know you can't help yourself. You're in the middle of an experience, you pull out your phone because you just have to record it and share it with somebody. Those are the kinds of experiences that I think pretty much any company is capable of creating with a little bit of work. I like the fact that you said you're coming at this from the lens of a marketer, and I believe that marketing has the potential, and I even wrote about this marketing has the potential to become what I call experience engineers crafting these experiences. But I want to get your take here, because we this word experience gets. It gets thrown around so much. You've got CX, you got customer experience, you've got x, you've got employee experience, you got LX, lead experience. How would you define experience like that word, if we could just put some thinking around that? Well, what does that mean to you? Experience? Well, it's a combination of every single interaction that the person has. Could be an employ you could be a customer, could be a lead, along with the feeling that they have with those interactions. So it's important that both of those things are put together because we often...

...forget that. The customer experience it compasses every interaction. It's not just when you call customer service that's an interaction, but marketing is part of the customer service. Excuse me, marketing is part of the customer experience. Your website, your mobile APP or part of the experience. If you have a physical location, walking in is part of the experience. The smile on somebody's face or the frown on some of these face is part of the experience, but the feeling that it evokes is really what people remember. And so when we can create feelings of happiness, of joy, of excitement, of surprise, of delight, those are the kinds of things that people end up wanting to share. Yes, and one of the Core Cup, one of the core studies that my book is based on, found that consumers are more willing to share positive experiences than negative ones by far. The problem is is that two thirds of consumers can't remember the last time that a brand exceeded their expectations. So all we got to do is give them the positive stories and they are more than willing to share them. The thing is is that the vast majority of experiences that we have with any brands, financial or not, our average, your ordinary, and nobody shares that. Yes, and that idea of extraordinary is an area that will touch into here in a moment. To go beyond the the ordinary, and I'm curious, you know, fourteen years in financial services, what's the commonly held belief around this idea of experience that others might have but you would disagree with them on for one reason or another. where? Where might they? There's an opportunity for what I would say to transform their thinking based upon your experience and what you know here. Well, I'm a straight shooter and so I'm just going to tell you like it is. The mistake that most financial services companies make is believing that their customers want to engage with them. Let's be honest, no one wakes up in the morning wanting to go to their banks website like that. Just doesn't happen, right, and so if you can accept that, then you begin to build experiences from a different state of mind. Let me give you an example. Early on in my career in discover, what we found is that when people logged in, if we could throw a pop up at them and try to offer them, cross sell them, upsell them something, we can make more money. But the thing that's missing there is that while five ten percent of people might click on that pop up, the other one thousand nine hundred and ninety five percent of people are irritated. Right, right, and that's not worth the cost, in my opinion. Harvard Business Review found that the single most important facet to engendering loyalty is removing customer barriers, removing friction, making... easy on people. And when we won JD power. That was right after we spent all of this time trying to make things as easy as possible on our website. I'm going to give you a great example of this. That that wowed me. So we learned through just looking at the metrics on the site that one of the top reasons people came to the site was to review their most recent transactions. You know, they want to make sure that the waiter didn't overcharge them with a tip or whatever it is. Well, it took about three clicks to get to your recent transactions. So we said, well, what if we reduce that? We thought about reducing it to two clicks, we thought about reducing it to one click, and then we decided to create a facebook like feed on the home page that showed your most recent ten transactions. As soon as we launched this, an incredible thing happened. Tens of thousands of people logged on to the credit card website and then logged right back off. They didn't click on anything, but you know what, the satisfaction scores went through the roof. Yes, because we just gave them what they wanted. We made it as easy as possible and we were willing to acknowledge. No one wants to spend even an extra second on the credit card website. They just want to get there and leave. And it's hard for people to acknowledge because we want to believe that. You know that the people like us and they want to work with us. So whatever. But you know what, some industries that just is generally not the case, and I hate to be the bearer of bad news in that way, but it is fixable. You just make it as easy as possible for people. Why do we, I would say, not just in financial services but maybe just as human beings, tend to make things more complex than they need to be? Well, first of all, it's because we don't look at problems or scenarios through a customer Lens. We look at them through a business lets. So think about a typical financial services institution and when we were all at work in person, people are walking the halls, they're using banking jargon, there talking and acronyms are knees, you know, right. And even something is simple as APR, Yep, if you ask the standard customer what Apr Means, especially compared to apy like high brain explosion, you might get that. Somebody says interest rate, and that's probably the best answer you're going to get from a consumer. But the truth is they have they really don't know. And so the question in persists. Why do we continue to use an acronym that our customers don't understand and why can't we just use why do we have to Talk Bank and not plain English people? Yeah, yeah, and so I think that's the big mistake, is that people think, well,...

...well, we live and breathe this every day, so we know these differences, we know the the subtle difference between one acronym and another, but our customers don't necessarily understand that order they want to take the time to learn it. So we've got to help that. We got to hold their handling. The digital growth is a journey from good to great, but sometimes this journey can feel confusing, frustrating and overwhelming. The good news is you don't have to take this journey alone, because now you can join a community of growth minded marketing and sales leaders from financial brands and Finn text who are all learning, collaborating and growing together. Visit Digital growthcom slash insider to learn more about how you can join the digital growth insider community to maximize your future digital growth potential. Now back to the show. I want to tell a true story here, because you're speaking into something that we've seen multiple times when doing digital secret shopping studies. And one time, I'll never forget this, it was a user, a human being, on a financial brand's website and they mentioned apy on a checking account and they took it as they're going to charge me three percent of my all of my money to keep a checking out there. No, forget that, and I'm like wow, like it was at that moment I realize how much others don't know because they're not in this world day in and day out. They took apy as what APR was and there was it, and it was just an honest confusion. And so I'm in agreement like it's if we step out of our worldview and into the hearts and minds of people and just look at things a little bit differently, that's where the big transformation can happen. And speaking of transformation, I always appreciate and we're kind of I'm going to I'm going to poke, poke, a little fun here, because we're talking acronyms and I'm a big acronym person. It's how I remember things. For example, we have like the banker, be a and CE are strategy circle, and acronyms run rampant and digital growth Topia. But I appreciate the acronym that you used here in the context in the book, because it does make it easier to remember things like it what you're talking about. We want to be wise when it comes to experience and why? Is stands for witty, immersive, shareable and extraordinary, and I think to me this was like the best part of the book because it's like Ah, when I think about experience, I want to make sure that I'm wise about this experience, and so I want to break each one of these points down for the dear listener in context of experience, starting with with witty. What does that mean here here? Well, first I just watch here a really funny story about when I created this methodology. I did it quite frankly,...

...because I'm a straight shooter, because I looked around at other speakers I was like, man, everybody's got a methodology, I better have one, and so I sat down and tried to come up with words that made sense, that fit into what I was saying anyway, and I came up with this and the first time I delivered it into speech, I read the audience feedback afterwards and everyone was spitting the word back at me. Wise and wiser. You know, thank you for making me wise to customer experience or I can't wait to implement wise at my business. So I knew I had hit on something because I got the feedback back right, and that is part of experience, is we gotta listen to our customers. Are Audience and they'll tell you whether they like it or not, and so I knew people liked it and that's where I went with it. But Witty is probably my favorite of the four steps. These are the four steps to creating the types of experiences to people want to talk about, because, again, we want our customers talking about us. That's the most credible marketing there is out there. Now, Whitty's not about being humorous. I know that humor can be challenging, especially in financial services. It's a little bit risky. Something I find funny you may not not, and let's face it, there's certain brands out there, will say, like Taco Bell and Wendy's, that kind of have a reputation for being funny. And that's probably not your bank or your financial services institution. That's totally fine, but way is about being clever, MMM, using language to your advantage, and this is the important part for your audience, refusing to be boring. There is no law that says the financial services has to be boring. It is in many case, but it doesn't mean that it has to be. And so wit it's really about finding every opportunity that you communicate with a customer in any channel and just try to show a little personality, have a little fun. It doesn't have to be so serious all the time. When you do that it stands out to people because they don't expect it from their financial institution. Yes, and there's a couple of examples in the books of just some signage. One says almost there, please use the other entrance, and then another one. It's another sign that says eureup next, hang tight, and it's just that type of verbiage, I think, that you don't expect, but it does leave a positive impression in the mind of like, AH, I get it, like and so I like this idea of witty, which really, I think, transitions nicely to immersive, because we could be witty. But but what does ammersive mean when it comes to experience? Here? Immersive is about putting the whole customer journey together and making sure that it makes sense to people. We know that journeys are not linear. We're customers go back and forth. They have a high demand for your services, then they don't bother talking to you for a couple of months, then they really need you and then there's some emergency and then they don't talk to you for a few months, and so the journey is not linear. But we need to make sure that it feels consistent to the customer,...

...that if they walk into your branch, it doesn't feel like a completely different company than the website that they're used to going to. So some of its branding. But it's also about how do we find places to draw out either emotion or to appeal to the human senses? These are places where we can create memories that people then want to talk about later. I give you a really simple example. I remember going into the bank as a kid with my parents and they always had lollipops. They're right, which of course made the me, the kid, really want to go to the bank right. I've now seen some that have drive throughs that you know if they see there's a dog in the car when they said it through the little newmatic tube. There's a little dog biscuit there too, which is such a great touch. Now, at dog biscuit probably costs a penny or too. It's not a big investment, but if you have a dog you know what I'm talking about. Like you do something Nice for my dog and I love you forever. Yeah, so these small things, I getting to know your customer and sort of being able to adapt if there are if there is a kid, they're having the lollipop or the or, you know, some little toy or something like that. It makes a huge difference for people and it takes kind of the the sting out of having to go to the bank, which, again, is not an errand that anybody particularly looks forward to. Yes, and I think that right there it's those small little deposits that we can make in a person's mind that over time it increases trust, it increases satisfaction, and then that brings us to the next element of the wise model, shareable. I just want to say I appreciate what you did there with the word deposits. You're witty. You See, you just did it, so shareable is it's the end game, right. It's about getting people to talk about their experience. But this has to be intentional. It doesn't happen by accident and, frankly, it doesn't happen very often by asking for it. If you ever seen a organization say hey, you know, follow us on instagram and use our Hashtag and don't forget to tag us, and you know, there's like so many instructions you're exhausted by the time you're done reading what you're supposed to do. I look for those experiences where the person can't help themselves. It's just natural to pull out your phone and take a picture of it and want to show somebody or tell somebody about it. That's what makes a shareable experience. One of my favorite examples that I use as a metaphor across industries happened at a restaurant, Fleming steakhouse. We took my son there for his birthday and we walked in and the major d handed him a birthday card that was signed by the staff, which I thought was a pretty nice gesture. I hadn't seen that before. Was Interesting is that not only did that stand on its own as being a great experience. But as we were enjoying our...

...meal, my daughter piped up and said, you know, if they gave my son a birthday card, I'll bet they're going to do something special at the end of the meal. Out Bet we're not going to get just a slice of cake and a candle. And I thought about how I've trained my kids really well around customer experience. That was my first proud dad moment. But I thought about how interesting it was that the cut the birthday card created this anticipation during the meal. So that's something else was coming. took an expectation setting. Yeah, yeah, and by the way, there's nothing wrong with a slice of cake and a candle, except for one thing. Every restaurant does it, so it's not particularly sharable. Now, Flemings did not disappoint. They came out with a box of for handmade chocolates sitting on a plate that had happy birthday spelled out in cocoa powder, and instead of a candle they had a sparkler, because we all know that a sparkler is so much cooler than a candle. Yes, and I'm telling you, without anybody asking for people at the table all pulled out their phones to take a picture of this dessert. The adult shared it to facebook, as that's what we adults do. The kids shared it to snapchat, because that's what the kids do. And just like that, Fleming steakhouse has four positive shares across for social media channels, all because they just decided to do a different kind of birthday dessert than anyone else. It's not a more expensive dessert, it's not necessarily a more complicated dessert, it's just different, and that's why it stood out and that's why it's charable to use this story. I think it it dove tells so nicely into the last point of the wise acronym, the wise model, because what Flemings did here is they took the ordinary, the whole hum birthday cake and the candle. They took the ordinary and transformed it into extraordinary. What does this mean from your point of view? The to to this idea of to make an experience extraordinary? Yeah, it's a great point and I'm glad that you made the connection and that's why I use it as a metaphor. Right, look in Your Business for where you've got a candle and where you could have a sparkler same cost, different experience, better experience. And the good news is is that most experiences are ordinary and nobody talks about ordinary. Nobody knows you about the average restaurant they went to. They either tell you that it was amazing or they tell you it was really terrible. So if most experiences are ordinary, then all we have to do to stand out is be a little bit better than ordinary. We don't have to be miles above ordinary, we just have to be a little bit better. And that's why all the examples you'll find in the book or am my keynotes are all meant to be simple, practical and inexpensive. I don't want you going out spending millions of dollars on a multi year transformational customer experienced process.

I just want you looking for little opportunities across the journey that you can make things better. And one of the ways, the best way, to do that. And I'm sorry again, I don't I don't mean to offend. I spent enough time in the industry I think I can say this with some credibility. The last place that I want you to look for inspiration is another financial services institution yes, that's lovely. You're going to find it right. I want you to look at Disney world and starbucks and apple and Amazon and all these companies that you yourself love and ask yourself a what about them do you love? And I think we can extract the takeaways from lots of other industries and then apply them to ours. Let me give you an example that didn't make the book because I learned it afterwards. Universal Studios in Florida has Harry Potter world and if you are a Harry Potter Fan, you got to check it. It's incredible. Well, I read an article recently that said that there are lots of people that are now standing in line for the rides without any intention of going on the ride, and the reason is because this standing in line part has become an experience. Yes, you get to wind your way through Hogwarts Castle, you get to interact with characters, you get to look up on the walls and see the picture frames that are animated like they are in the movie and in the books. And so people are spending forty five minutes an hour in line, they're getting to the ride and then they're leaving. They're not going on the ride. So, after your brain explodes at this concept, ask yourself. When do we make customers wait? Do we make them wait in a line, maybe if we have a physical branch? Do we make them wait on hold on the phone? Do we make them wait for a credit decision? How many times have we applied for a credit card? and well, we can't tell you, but we'll send you a in the mail and seven to ten days awesome. How do we make the waiting part of our experience exciting or interesting or at least different? And so that's how we can take something where. You know, I get it, you're not in the amusement park business, dear listener, but you probably are making your customers wait, and so you can figure out you can take that inspiration, figure out something you might do in your business to change them, and that's being a straordinary and have a keynote called look outside to grow inside, and it's this idea of looking for inspiration how you started this whole conversation today of where can we go? What are the other experiences that we can learn from? Disney's a great one because you know, as I was mentioning, we have marketing has the ability to become experienced engineers. Disney has imagineers. In my Disney story it was right before the pandemic. It was February of two thousand and twenty. We pick the kids up, it was Valentine's Day. We picked them up early from school and I'm like,...

...we're going to go to Disneyland, and so we fully from Hugh C Houston to Disneyland Out in California and it was star wars, rise of the resistance. Very similar experience that you're talking about. The waiting becomes part of the experience. To me that is such a practical key takeaway. What are the opportunities to make the waiting to remove some of the anxiety, because in baking there's a lot of anxiety tied to waiting, but to turn to transform the anxiety into maybe it's hope or just a different feeling or emotion, which really I feel like just from our time together and and Dan, I appreciate the knowledge in the insights I feel wise from what you have shared. But but we can end and I think we can all become a little bit wiser by wrapping up how you did in chapter nine, which they are of wiser stands for response of what do you mean here? Customers want a relationship with the companies they do business with. That our relationship has to be two way and so responsive is about always being there for your customer when they have questions, when they have complaints and, frankly, when they leave you complements, which they're going to do a lot more of if you're following the wise methodology. They're going to be sharing the positive parts of the experience and the best thing you can do in that case is go in there and thank them and show them some love back, whether that's on social media or whether they send you an email or they call. Make sure that you reciprocate that back. And if customers have questions, make sure that you're there to answer them, otherwise someone else is going to be answering them. If they have complaints, don't be afraid of complaints. Customers who complain generally do so because they care. They actually want you to resolve their problems so they can continue doing business with you. That should be a pretty high priority. Instead, we often like to shut out complaints and where we just don't want to hear them, but ultimately your customer is saying, look, you promised me an experience and you're delivering something else. It's either broken, or it's slower than I expected or it's missing my expectations, and this is crucial feedback to how we can consistently get better. The reality is is that customer expectations are only growing. The pandemic made them grow a lot, and so being responsive and creating that a two way conversation is really key to loyalty. I like that idea of a dialog, two way conversation. I've appreciated the dialog here. When you get real practical, as we wrap up together today, Dan, what's the next best step? What's something small, simple, practical, and we've already shared some throughout our conversation, but but maybe to set the dear listener off on their next steps, on their own journey of growth around experience, what's one small thing that they can do, because all transformation that leads the future growth begins with a very small, simple first step. What can that be? Kick one communication channel that you have with your customer and review that communication in...

...a group, meet on zoom or meet in a conference room and just walk through it. Read a letter out loud that you send a customer or an email or or read your the contents of your website. If you find that your colleagues are, you know, drooling on the table because they fall in asleep, that's exactly what's happening with your customer. Try to find an opportunity somewhere in that communication just to show some humanity, to be friendly, to be witty, and you're going to start making a difference and ultimately just becomes a cultural change so that every time we communicate with customers we try to instill some humanity, some fun, some wittiness. It just becomes a natural part of what we do. And as if you want a fun example of this, if you go to my website, Dan Genghiscom, scroll all the way to the bottom and click on my privacy policy. Now, I know that does not sound very fun, does it, but I guarantee you it's not like any other privacy policy that you've read before. This is what you can do in financial services. You can communicate in a way that gets people to pause and say, wow, I did not expect that, and that's the beginning of creating a memorable experience. And I like how you frame this Privacy Policy, Aka the really important stuff because you're right, it's all as this is the wittingness, I think, that you're talking about. But I appreciate the the practicality of just pick one, one, one piece of communication, and let's look at this through a different Lens. Speaking of communication, what is what is a great way for someone who's listening, they want to continue the conversation that we've started here today? You've got the book, got a podcast. What's the best way for them to connect? And you've also got another great resource here that you reference and highlighted in the book, which is the the ten day sex challenge. What's? Yes, the ten daycx challenge. If you go to improve my CXCOM you'll hit my ten day C X Challenge. It's completely free. Every day you get a night the second whiteboard video from me giving you a specific tactic that you can work on in your business. I encourage you to grab the team. It's a great team building activity. It's a great way to get people thinking on the same page about customer experience and it teaches you how easy it is to make these incremental changes. You can also always reach out to me at Dan at Dan gingiscom. I'm on twitter at D Gingis. I'm very active on Linkedin and because I teach people to be responsive, you can rest as shirt, I will be responsive to you if you reach out as well. Dan. Thank you so much. Reach out today and connect with Dan. I appreciate your thinking today...

...that you've shared, and it's a been a lot of fun. Thank you so much for joining me on another episode of baking on digital growth. Thanks for having me, ma'am. As always, that until next time, be well, do good and make your bed. Thank you for listening to another episode of banking on Digital Growth with James Robert Leigh. To get even more practical and proven insights, along with coaching and guidance, visit digital growthcom slash insider to join a community of growth minded marketing and sales leaders from financial brands and Finn Tax until next time, be well and do good.

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