Banking on Digital Growth
Banking on Digital Growth

Episode · 2 months ago

232) #ExponentialInsights: Customer Loyalty in Finance - Keeping Score with Apex


Many financial institutions have lost the emotional connection with their clients, so some of the brightest minds in the industry have started keeping score.

Marc Whitehead ( and Nick Bond (, co-founders of Emotive Technologies and The Apex Scoring System (, spoke with us about what they found in their 2022 U.S. Banking Industry Loyalty Report.

Join us as we discuss:

What drove Marc and Nick’s team to commission the report (4:34)

Emerging patterns throughout customer loyalty in financial services (15:53) 

How to bridge the emotional gap in customer expectations (23:06)

Check out these resources we mentioned during the podcast:

- 2022 U.S. Banking Industry Loyalty Report (




You can find this interview and many more by subscribing to Banking on Digital Growth on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, or at 

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for Banking on Digital Growth in your favorite podcast player.

You need to rethink how you profile your customers in your prospects, less around the behaviors they take or have taken and more around the feelings and beliefs that they want in a relationship with you. You're listening to banking on digital growth with James Robert Lay, a podcast that empowers financial brand marketing, sales and leadership teams to maximize their digital growth potential by generating ten times more loans and deposits. Today's episode is part of the exponential insight series, where James Robert Lay interviews the industry's top marketing, sales and FINTECH leaders, sharing practical wisdom to exponentially elevate you and your team. Let's get into the show. Greetings and hello. I am James Robert Lay and welcome to episode to thirty two of the banking on digital growth podcast. Today's episode it is part of the exponential insight series and I'm excited to welcome not just one but two guests, Mark Whitehead and Nick Bond, founding partners at Emotive Technologies Inc, who recently released the two US banking industry loyalty report. Now I read the report. I recommend you do, as well, because there's a ton of practical insights about how banks are failing their customers. But there's good news. There's always good news, because the report is not all doom and gloom, as mark and Nick identified, and offer three opportunities to guide you forward so that you can inject more feeling, more emotion and more empathy into your financial brand or fin tech's experience, which is exactly what we're going to be talking about today, to empower you, the dear listener, to move onwards, to move upwards, to maximize your future digital growth potential. Welcome to the show, Mark and nick. It is good to share time with you both today. Thanks for having us on the show absolute lutely. Now, you know, before we get into talking about this new report Um that you all have released, I always like to start off on a positive note. What is good for each of you to begin, personal or professional? It is your pick to get started. Mark, we'll start with you. What is good? What? The weather has been very favorable for a lot of golf for me, and that's a passion that I have, so when I'm not doing work on apex, I love to get out on the links. And then it's been a good season for that. Nick. What about you? You actually had a funny story is we were kind of talking off air before we hit record. It's almost a return to routine for us with kids going back to school. We thought today was the first day of school. We got her off to school. The first day of school is tomorrow. So we've been talk about being overprepared. Meg on our faces. Uh, so we'll read those emails closer next time. But yeah, no, you know what it's we're excited that we had a great summer. We're excited for routine to get back. Our kids intended to go in grade one and get her thing done.

So yeah, everything's great. I love it. I love it. You know, you talk about being overprepared. I'm really filled up for my wife right now because, as I mentioned, we have four kids and they're in three different schools, so we have two in elementary, one in middle school and then one in junior high. and the volume of communication at this point. I've kind of joked with her. I was like, I need to hire you an executive assistant to kind of sort through and manage all of the communication, because it's just becoming overwhelming. We just set down to do the monthly calendar and it's at this point it's a whole new level. It's a whole new ball game. Like, at minimum neediate a fully dedicated email address just for the school communications. That's why, I think what we're gonna be working towards, because the inboxes, being particularly her personal inboxes, just become so overwhelmed with communication. I think that's that overwhelmed. It's a great segue into today's conversation. You'll just released the t two US banking industry loyalty report, which I found very fascinating reading through and and and I like how you frame this. It's about how financial brands are failing account holders. But the good news, and there's a lot of good news. It's like, okay, here we are today, Um and not so positive place, but there's a lot of potential possibilities to to transform the challenges and the struggles that we're feeling and that we're confronted with into positives going forward into the future. That's where growth comes from. To begin why commission the report? Why Now? That's a great question, Um James. And so we have actually been studying at a more arms length a number of different categories since covid happened. So we did a study before Covid, we did a study in the middle of Covid and we were just curious about how things have changed as we're kind of coming out of covid and some semblance of normality is starting to happen, and the banking sector is one sector in particular that has leaned heavily into what we are providing. And really what we were looking for was more clues around how relationships with uh as you called that, account holders have evolved through Covid, and I think we found a lot more than we bargained for in understanding the relationship, beginning with the fact that too many banks still look at their customers as account holders rather than people who have emotional expectations in their relationship with a number of different brands, no more important than their their banks, and how have those relationships deteriorated or changed over this period of time and how do things need to be corrected in order for loyalty to be regained? That's a great point. People do business with people, people bank with people, and I think there's this this piece of human entity that we're seeing coming out of...

...the covid experience as as we're moving, continuing to move forward into this decade, and I think that's gonna be a key trend over the next eight years as we're moving towards what what did you find most surprising, Nick, if you think about everything that you've learned through the research here, what is that key insight that you found most insightful? It's so interesting because we're in a category, and we were talking about it just before we started here, that is very numeric, very quantitative, very black and white. I'm going to offer a good product in service, it'll be at a decent rate or a competitive rate and I'll have good customer service and if I do that, I'm gonna have my business. And what you really see is that what's truly driving loyalty in this space doesn't have a lot to do with those things. It is actually this entire emotional side of it. People's finances, People's futures, people's planning, you know, their confidence, their ability to take that big it's all based on their finances and their financial financial institutions, and relationship with them is a big part of that story. It is not black and white for them. It is complicated, it is messy and at the end of the day, they need an institution and they need products and services and people really, more more so than anything, that they can count on that when things do get clunky or Chunky or rough, they can turn to them and they think they're going to get back up, they're going to get some support. That's what they're really looking for and it's in these areas that we found, I think, the biggest failings and it's in these areas that we see some of the newer emergent brands in this space, some of the new challenger Brands, actually doing a pretty good job, or doing a much better job anyways. And so you start to see this shift in terms of what are people really buying when they're going in and choosing and selecting a financial institution to work with? What are they getting and what's keeping them there? Um, and I think this is where we start some really interesting insights around not just don't just create an emotional connection, everybody create an emotional connection, but do something meaningful for them. It was really interesting to get a sense of the mindset of the of the individual dealing with the big bank but really wanting it to feel much more personal than it getting today. I think that key insight to really kind of hone all of that into a single point. What are they really buying? Because when people feel confused, when they feel frustrated, when they feel overwhelmed about money, and, as I wrote about in banking on digital growth, there's an inherent high cognitive load in finances, in money, they're looking for clarity, they're looking to feel calm, they're looking to feel confident. And there's that word that you use, that I've used, its feelings. It's emotion and, as as you're hitting on before, within financial services, the conflict is in the banker's brain, because bankers very smart, analytical, left brain driven leaders. People buy base upon emotions, they buy based upon feelings. I think the question mark is knowing what we know...

...through the insights that we've gained in this study, what are the biggest dangers that financial brands need to be aware of with these insights thinking about their future growth potential? What could possibly hold them back from really leveraging this because, as nick mentioned, there are challenger Brands, Fintech, neo banks, et Cetera, who we are also seeing as well doing a tremendous job of positioning more deeply into feeling and emotion than, say, the incumbents. What are the dangerous mark? So I think first and foremost, the danger is making sure that you're always or that you're never ignoring the fact that your customers need to be at the center of every conversation that you have. So, as an example, one of the things that came from the report was that consumers want forward thinking but affordable resources. So this idea that I want you to be evolving technology and ways to be able to serve my needs through better technology, but don't make me be a guinea pig and don't make me have to pay for that. That is an expectation of what I want to come from you. Another thing that we saw was that two specific emotions, dependability and respect, are underserved emotions that need some attention, and the way we get at those two things. I could see your opening your book now, because it's probably right in your book, as if we stole it right out of your book. Dependability is uncovered by their reaction to the statement. Does this bank, does my bank, have my back? And respect is does my bank treat me like a human being? These very personal ways to describe the relationship are what many of the legacy banks are not paying attention to. They just think having people in a branch is delivering those kinds of things. But it's more around how are you having conversations with your customers, around what they need out of the relationship? Don't just serve the what of a bank loan or depositing money in a bank. Understand the why behind the what and serve the why. Can I add one more nick? Go ahead. You asked one of the biggest challenges or dangers, and I think when you look at a report like we've got, it would be easy to say, Oh, we just need to do more of what the Challenger banks are doing. For example, let's go, let's go, chase so far around, for example, but that's it's it's that's the mentality that hurts. And you start chasing your competitives, you start chasing others. That's called R and D. that's not research and development, that's rip off and duplicate. Oh, I love it. I love it because that is a huge danger. What what we're trying to get people and change the conversation to be is chase your audience around. Tells me what they want, give them what they want. The thing..., we talk to customers in this there are people that have self selected chosen these brands to do business with. They have done so for a reason. Are there because of promise that you've made or an experience that you're delivering? What we're seeing is that there are promises being made so, for example, around some of the very large brands, that you will be happier, that this will be a nice, happy, joyful life you'll have because you do business with us. But that's the one trait. We're seeing them failing really hard on. This idea of joyfulness, this idea that you're doing business with us is going to be a good experience, is actually not a good experience. So they're choosing you because you're saying certain things. You're not delivering on those things. If you want to build loyalty quicker with those individuals, do the things that you're saying you're gonna do. And that has nothing to do necessarily with having somebody pick up the phone quickly. What you call it's not. It's not call center times, it's not having a new rate on your on your account. It's just doing business a little differently, using different tone, treating them like people, because you are also a person. Don't chase competitors around the block, chase your audience and do what you say you're gonna do, and you're gonna just you're gonna have a lot more success. Digital growth is a journey from good to great, but sometimes this journey can feel confusing, frustrating and overwhelming. The good news is you don't have to take this journey alone, because now you can join a community of growth minded marketing and sales leaders from financial brands and fin techs who are all learning, collaborating and growing together. VISIT DIGITAL GROWTH DOT com slash insider to learn more about how you can join the digital growth insider community to maximize your future digital growth potential. Now back to the show. Putting people at the center of all of your thinking, putting people at the center of all of your doing, is a very practical way to apply this, and I think that's where we begin to put the transformation of people over the commoditized transaction of dollars and sins. And you know, I think a lot of financial brands are product driven and so they they operate based upon what they need versus say what their community or their audience needs. And so that's a massive, you know, shift in mindset. But I was laughing and I pulled up my book here banking on digital growth, because I have a model that my wife and I actually developed together. It's called the Pyramid of human relationships. Um and and we we we created this model through marriage preparation, the work that we do through marriage preparation, helping couples prepare from marriage, because we started to see these these common patterns emerge in relationship and and then it was like, well, if, if this is emerging here in in in pre marriage and just couples, well, how does this emerge in other relationships? And we started like putting the hypothesis to tests, and so we found three common patterns that build the Pyramid of human relationship. And mark to your point, it is respect. Respect, is that the foundation of every relationship. Help me when...

I have a need. Now, when you, you know financial brand, have a need. Now, at the pinnacle of the relationship is commitment. We'll call that love, love being commitment and the Greeks, you know, have written eloquently about the the five different types of love. But we're gonna look at that. You know, through the Lens of a brand as commitment, but to bridge the gap between respect and love. It's trust. Say what you mean, mean what you say, do what you say. That's trust, and so that is literally written here. And what it's trust built on, and I think nick you hit on this, it's built upon communication. So really, there's so, there's it's it's just great to see the insights that you're, you know, gaining, you know, through the research with with you know, quantifiable and how they apply to some of these other models and methods. I want to get into the why. Why? Why are we where we're at today? Is a vertical because, as you mentioned, let's not go chase other brands. Um, let's put the focus on people. How did we get here to begin with in the first place, because you look at a lot of different verticals, but you're seeing some interesting patterns emerge within financial services. Why? How did we get here to begin with? Well, I think in the financial services space we got here because there is now different and distinct competition in the marketplace that is pushing legacy brands to rethink who they are what they stand for. Secondly, I think some of the Challenger brands have recognized that they are not just there to be an alternative that is cheaper, digital based, more more delivering more practical solutions. They also need to understand, recognized and empathize with the emotional expectations of their customers, and that was the other interesting thing that we found in the study was that Uh Challenger banks, almost all of whom you only deal with online. You don't go to a branch, you don't you're still dealing with people, obviously, but you are dealing through the Internet. are building a stronger emotional relationship because they understand what the customer wants to get out of the relationship. They listen differently when they are having conversations with customers about the why behind the what, and they are building products and services that are not just enabling them to deliver what they deliver cheaper, more efficiently and to the bank's benefit, but they are actually building that technology because it serves the customers. You know, can can can you build upon that that Nick can you? Can you expand further into marks thinking here, because I think there's a lot to unpack into how we got to where we're at today. I think it evolved...

...over time and yes, competitive pressures and and and growth. But you know, you think back, here's here's like the storybook version of your bank is the bed fruit falls, bank and loan and it's a wonderful life, right, like yeah, everybody knew everybody, they existed for the community. It was very personable. As banks sort of, kind of. This is the storyboard. But as of course, as banks grow and they get more profitable and they get more products and services and they want new ways to separate you from your money and they want new ways to to get bigger share of wallet. Now you're a customer and you looked at it as a share of wallet metric. You no longer a person and over time, the person and they came to you for in the first place. And what is getting delivered, especially by the big banks that we're seeing are just further and further apart there. They are no longer the oneness that exists between the human with a bank, with a banking need, and the way the industry services. It just gets more opaque, more difficult to navigate. Are Number One, and this is for Challenger banks, institutions, whatever large institutions. The number one thing people are looking for is predictability. which we define as give me, let me look forward to a consistent experience, let me look forward to something I can count on, because more and more I don't know what I can count on anymore and I start to call you, I don't know and dependability mark mentioned earlier. I don't know if you'll have my back because you don't even know who I am. What people are looking for has become quite complicated, and so you start getting these challenger brands that were saying, Hey, let's bring it back, let's simplify it, let's use language that's normal, let's use tones that fuel human let's make sure you can actually contact a person fairly quickly. You start to see why these brands are starting to win very quickly on their loyalty front, or at least they're starting to achieve much stronger numbers on the on the side, of the emotional side, for example, the loyalty numbers we're seeing are are strictly very like a lot higher. It's because they're they're decluttering their uncomplicating this thing that the industry has gone on to create all this complexity around and I think, I don't want to be crassed, but some of that might have been on purpose. Yes, right, and so it's not a bad thing to have a confused customer. You can take advantage of a confused customer and I think a lot of customers are feeling a little bit fed up with that. We're seeing that in our report and we're seeing why some new banks are coming along and winning, because they're saying no, enough is enough. To just think of the typical first question you get asked when you phone your bank or and you have a question or you have an obstacle and they will say, let me pull up your account. They don't ask a bunch of personal questions about you and tell me more about this situation. Let me pull up the financial details of my relationship with you before I can begin to help. That's the wrong way to build an emotional relationship with your customers. You're setting off on the wrong foot right out of the gate. One of those powerful questions that we can't ask. Well, there's really two powerful questions. Number one is how do you want to grow?...

What are your goals? What are the roadblocks that staying in the way of those goals? Because number one, you know many people don't even think about what their goals are. Because they're just so busy, and so when you can can facilitate their thinking, you're opening up new possibilities, you're opening up new potentials in their mind. And then you say, well, Hey, that's great, your goals are fantastic. What's going to stand in the way of them? What are the roadblocks? And then you bring this back and it'll say, okay, I hear you. What opportunities might be available to help you overcome those roadblocks to achieve those goals? Now that's a conversation that can be had on an annual basis, maybe even a quarterly basis. But but to support that we also need to back to your point about predictability. I think predictability comes by measuring progress. Where have we come on our journey of financial growth and financial confidence? Because a lack of predictability leads to an increase in negative feeling, confusion, complexity, conflict and when you're continuously feeling that you're gonna be stuck in the state of chaos. On the flip side, an increase in predictability leads to an increase in courage, it leads to an increase in commitment and it leads to an increase and confidence and and back to you and trust and back to your point about the call center. When we have a conversation, whether it's over the phone, in person through chat, I think the biggest question that we can ask is what is going well for you? Because if we can continuously train the mind to focus on the positive, particularly around money, that's because the mind can only hold a positive or negative thought or emotion, and we can literally program the mind to be more positive through all the interactions. So they know, and they could be having the worst day, but they know when they call their financial brand, it's gonna be they're going to get a little bit of love and light in their life. And that's where I want to I want to expand upon this because we're talking about opportunities, goals, roadblocks opportunities here. So let's focus on pod. Let's focus on the opportunities, because you've already mentioned nick about being predictable. Say what you do and do what you say. But you also see an opportunity here is to understand and over deliver on your customers emotional expectations. And I think about my my wife. When I don't meet her expectations, it's not good. There's a gap. So so what's the opportunity to bridge this gap here? For People? It's I don't think it's that hard. I think you've actually touched on some of the some of the ways to get to the to get to the promised land. On that front. What's really interesting. I just want to back it up for one quick second because it helps to answer your question. The experience that people are getting and we had, we have our own podcast. We brought people on to talk about what makes a dependable brand, what makes a brand joyful, what makes...

...a brand feel respectful, and it starts with the employees feeling that they are respected. It starts with employees feeling like they their organization has their back, that they are empowered to have a conversation. That's not strictly in the rule book for how you need to talk to people at the call center, but it's the right thing to do because this person on the phone is asking me something that I think I can help with, even if it's a bit off script. It's that mentality, it's that empowered employee that's going to start to make the emotional connections that we're talking about. Much more than a pile of policies coming down or, you know, some new language on an email. I think we need to start thinking about how we emplower people internally to start making this real. When we start thinking about some of the emotional specifics, it is this idea. How do I feel like you have my back again when I call you, when I go to the when I go to the bank, even when I'm using your Ui on the APP, using technology? How does it feel like I am I am Nick and then you get me and that my problems are your problems and that we are both trying to achieve the same thing? That's dependability, the idea of joy. Don't make this a headache. Make it so that when I have to I'm having a hard day, I have to call my F I for whatever reason, that could be the best part of my day. If you do that right, it could also be an an additive to the worst part of my day, because you probably are going to do it wrong based on past experience, which is what people are telling us is happening. So there are ways to do this. UH, keep it uncomplicated. That's another one that we saw a lot of. Don't don't complicate, don't make things difficult. They don't have to be difficult. It starts on the inside and then you can start to have that much more empathetic, honest, authentic calls interactions on the outside. The other funny thing is, and I'll just leave it with one marks. No marks, probably itching to to jump in, but you mentioned predictability and what predictability can give you, and it gives you courage and it gives you the the the confidence in the future. What's really we often see clients ask us, but you're also asking me to be innovative and forward thinking. How can I be innovative and predictable at the same time? How can I bring newness and difference and distinction, but also be something that they can count on every single time? And it's it's what you have described. Predictable is not boring. Predictable doesn't mean sameness, it means confidence. It means I know what kind of experience you're trying to deliver me and you always do your best to deliver that experience. Now, if that comes along with a new product or a new feature or a new service line that might be of interest to me, that's still within the realm of predictability, because we still are working towards the same goals. So that's how they live hand in hand. That's how you can be innovative and how you can be predictable at the same time. Um, that's that's really the essence of how what keeps these challenger brands are doing a great job of it. Actually see both of them scoring high on...

...both measures, innovation and predictability, much for that reason. So yeah, start on the inside and and don't look at those two separately. You know, we could put this in a formulaic approach to where e x, employee experience plus h x, is multiplied by D x. So a positive employee experience leads to a positive human experience that can be exponentially multiplied by a positive digital experience. As we start to wrap up here, mark, let's get real practical. Um. You know, what is one small thing that the dear listener can do next to apply some of this thinking to capture opportunity at their own financial brand, at their even their own Fintech or their own neo bank, because you know the the third, the third opportunity note in the report. It's often the smallest things that can have the biggest impact, and that's where I want to leave today's conversation to give the dear listener one small, practical, next best step, something easy, because that's how transformation begins. It is just what's the one small thing that they can do next on their own journey of growth? Here's a way to do what you already do in the banking industry, but maybe do it in a different way. So a typical uh experience exercise that you do is to know your client document. As you are on boarding a new customer and you're trying to gather a bunch of information. Very little of that information is about the customers feelings and beliefs. It is about their assets, it is about their behaviors, it is about when they're loan or their mortgage comes up for renewal. It is very little about what are they as a human what drives them, what motivates them, what interests them? So we talk with a lot of clients about this. You need to rethink how you profile your customers and your prospects, less around the behaviors they take or have taken and more around the feelings and beliefs that they want in a relationship with you. Because if you understand that and you. That is helping you put yourself in their shoes, understand what they want out of the relationship with you. Build a relationship that delivers against those things and you will will be rewarded with engagement and loyalty as a result of it. I think that right. There is a fantastic practical way to put people at the center of your thinking and of your doing. It's something you're already doing, but it's a very small optimization. One final question is is we wrap up here apex scoring? I mean, that's what shall do. How can we we we use apex scoring and the system to apply some of this thinking, because I mean, you know, to to to connect all of this back to the very beginning of the conversation. Financial Brands are, you know, guided by very smart, analytical, left brain driven leaders. People are very emotional, but now we can begin to quantify feelings and emotions...

...through the apex scoring system. Very practically speaking, what's the opportunity here? The good news is those same analytical people, those same individuals that are doing all of the work to understand the health of their business are also very oftentimes doing research, you know, applying we have two questions that we have to ask to to do apex. If you plug that into your research, you can come away very quickly and ad cadence. We recommend that you kind of understand it once, but then see how you're tracking through time. But what is what is happening? What are the emotions that are driving my relationship today? How how is that evolving? Based on competitive pressures? are based on things like pandemics. Are Based on, you know, the changing world. How am I doing on the things that my audience is saying are important emotionally? Also those rational things like, you know, customer service. Those things still matter. But you have to understand and a relationship is an evolving thing. You talked about it with your marriage. It's not the same marriage it was ten years ago. It's a different marriage and it will be ten years from now. The important thing is that it's still a marriage and that you evolve together and that you understand each other through communication and trust. That happens through in this case. One good way to do it with with brands and audiences is through something like apex. That let's you keep a beat on that and lets you understand. What kind of conversations do I need to start having doesn't really add any effort, but the output gives you a lot more to work with than maybe your current research might, and I think that's the key. How is this different than the current research that a lot of financial brands are doing today around C x, or customer experience? You know, it's a big term. It's getting thrown around. I'm telling you, though, I think I think e x would be it would be interesting out, honestly, now that we're kind of and that's why I love this podcast, because we can kind of CO create on the fly, it would be interesting to see how apex might also be able to be turned inwards around employee experience, particularly as we're moving through the age of AI and people's literally their their professional lives are being turned upside down because of Ai, because of automation. They're feeling confused, they're feeling frustrated, they're feeling overwhelmed. If they're feeling that, as we mentioned before, that's gonna Bleed over into the external so a little bit of an anecdotal aside there. But how might this be different? How might apex be different than, say, NPS? So it's so funny you say that we actually we have an employee side solution, and one of the really interesting things to look at is what are those things that are that making an employee feel loyal to a brand as a as a worker, and then are those reflected, or how are those reflected when it comes to the customers side of the equation, because we want to ask that same question. We know, just like you do, that it starts on the inside. We can demonstrate that. It's different than other research for just basically a couple of quick reasons. The first is that this is all guided by behavioral science and what makes people people and what makes people do what they do. It is nothing to do with behavior. It is all the things that make people...

...behave, that make people advocate or choose to become a customer. Those are what we want to understand and we have really codified it to say that people are people with any brand, with any category. How are they in this category? What are the specific elements that are making your score your score, and what do you need to do more of or less of to improve that score too? And the score is is a proxy for loyalty. It is loyalty. You have a higher score, you have a more loyal, engaged audience. So if you want to higher score, what kind of brand you need to be? How do you need to show up? We'll give you all of those details. Will Give you some specifics. Mark gave you an example. We actually get into in apex some very key specifics and things you can do as an organization to start to engender certain feelings, beliefs attitudes within an audience so that you're not just left with a number or a percentage point, you're left with the whole action plan of things you need to do next to start to build and foster a better relationship. So research usually will leave you with the data point. We'll take it a lot further and say here's why, here's the here's the science behind it and here's how you can track and make sure that you're building that going forward. Yeah, it almost essentially connects the dot with what mark you were talking about before, you know, connecting the y into the what, and I think it's that contextual perspective of identifying common people patterns, positively or negatively, and then be able to turn that insight into action to optimize what we're doing as we go forward. This has been a fantastic conversation Mark Nick, thank you very much. What's the best way that someone can reach out to you and even get the report that we've been talking through today to help guide them forward on their own journey of growth? Sure if they go to apex, score DOT AI, they can learn all about us and within that context, they can reach out to Nike or I and request a copy of the report and we'd be happy to share it with them. And what's the best way for them to reach out to you, nick, same naked apex core dot AI. You can reach market market ape score dot AI, go to the website, find out a little bit more about it, but we'd love to hear from anybody out there. Fantastic. Connect with mark, connect with Nick, learned from them both, grow with them both. Thank you both for joining me for another episode of banking on digital growth. Thank you, James, as always, and until next time, be well, do good and make your bed. Thank you for listening to another episode of banking on digital growth with James Robert Lay. To get even more practical and proven insights, along with coaching and guidance, visit digital growth dot com slash insider to join a community of growth minded marketing and sales leaders from financial brands and fin techs. Until next time, be well and do good.

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