Banking on Digital Growth
Banking on Digital Growth

Episode · 6 months ago

150) #InsideDigitalGrowth: A Deep Dive w/ Authors Into Best Practices

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

No matter how you slice it, money is stressful. People lose sleep over it and are ashamed to discuss it with friends and family.

And this is exactly why we train and educate here on the Banking on Digital Growth podcast: We’re on a mission to help the dear listener overcome financial anxieties to build a better, more comfortable life.

On this special 150 episode, we share insights from a panel of authors looking to further your financial education.

The panel:

Joe Pulizzi - Founder at The Tilt

Bradley Leimer - Co-founder at Unconventional Ventures

Kirk Drake - Founder at CU 2.0

Dan Sullivan - Founder and President at Strategic Coach

John Lanza - Chief Mammal at The Money Mammals

Shari Storm - Chief Executive Officer at Category 6 Consulting

Chris Skinner - Non-Executive Director at 11:FS

Will Leach - Founder at Mindstate Group

John Oxford - SVP and Director of Marketing for Renasant Bank

We cover:

- The risk of a product led initiative

- The key to innovation is growth

- The ability to pivot quickly to sustain the brand

- Training the mind to think who before how

- To create, capture, and maximize future growth

- Understanding the differences across generations

- Augmenting the customer experience w/ AI

- Emotional decision making

- Mitigating risk and being courageous

You can find this interview and many more by subscribing to Banking on Digital Growth on Apple Podcasts , on Spotify , or here .

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for Banking on Digital Growth in your favorite podcast player.

Time has flown by as we are now 150 episodes in on this podcast journey. It is a journey that we've taken together a journey that is possible because of you, the dear listener who has helped to make this podcast Become one of the top 10% podcast in the entire world that has now reached more than 100,000 years and over 130 different countries. And I want to thank you, I want to thank you with a very special two part episode that pulls together the biggest insights that we've had from all of the authors we've welcomed on the show to continue to educate you, to continue to empower you, to continue to elevate you as you move forward and make progress along your digital growth journey by guiding people in the communities you serve beyond financial stress towards a bigger, better and brighter future. You're listening to banking on digital growth with James Robert lay a podcast that empowers financial brand marketing, sales and leadership teams to maximize their digital growth potential by generating 10 times more loans and deposits. Today's episode is part of the inside digital growth series where James robert shares answers to some of the biggest digital marketing and sales questions he gets from the digital growth community. Have a question you want to get answers to on a future episode, visit www dot go ask jr dot com to submit your question today. Now let's go inside digital growth greetings and hello, I am James robert, ley and welcome to the 150th episode of the banking on digital growth podcast. This episode is part of the inside digital growth series. But this this is no ordinary episode. This is a very special episode 1 50 where I want to take time to pause to reflect together with you because we are halfway through on our journey. two, episodes with one mission in mind here at the Digital Growth Institute. And that mission is this To simplify digital marketing and sell strategies that empower financial brands and fin techs to generate 10 times more loans and deposits and we do this through training and education programs that are further supported by bespoke research and insight engagements. We do this for one reason, money is stressful. I predicted since early 2020 and some of our very, very early podcast here right at the start of the COVID pandemic that financial stress will be a silent epidemic, an epidemic of epic proportions. That takes a toll on people's physical health, the relationships that they have with loved ones and really just a person's overall sense of well being. My predictions unfortunately are turning out to be true as we continue to journey through a post covid world and according to a study from td 85% of Americans feel stressed about money. Let's put this another way because I I want to make this as real as possible for you. four out of five people, you know, four out of five people, you know, feel stressed about money Furthermore, have reported feeling stressed about money over the past month. According to a study From the American Psychology Association. Almost three out of four people, you know have felt stressed about money over the past month. But why is this why do people feel this way for one? According to CNBC, one out of...

...every two people, you know, is living paycheck to paycheck and this is independent of income. Here's the thing, the stress, this financial stress, it is taking a toll on people's health. It is taking a toll on the relationships that they have with their friends and family. It is taking a toll on their overall sense of well being. For example, according to stash dot com, almost one in three people, you know are losing sleep, losing sleep because of financial stress while another one in three feel too embarrassed to discuss financial matters with anyone because they think they are worse off than their friends. Yes, financial shame is real. As one out of every five people, you know, don't talk about money because they are ashamed of their financial habits. There is indeed a growing epidemic health epidemic rooted in financial stress. And this is why we do what we do here at the Digital Growth Institute because we believe that by working together by collaborating by training by educating by coaching by guiding financial brand and Fintech marketing cells and leadership teams. We can make the world a billion times better by guiding a billion people beyond financial stress towards a bigger, better and brighter future. And this podcast, this podcast is just one of the many ways that we are living out this purpose because it is in fact one of the best ways that we can educate the greatest number of people at scale around the world. When we launched this podcast in Q two of 2020. I never thought that we'd hit 150 episodes in just over a year later as we have released two episodes per week every single week For 75 weeks now. And since that time, the insights, the knowledge that has been shared through this podcast through these conversations, This knowledge has reached right around 100,000 years In over 130 countries, but none of this would've been possible first and foremost without you, the dear listener who I would like to think for sharing time with me for sharing time with all of the guests that we've had on the show. Thank you for the opportunity to share ideas to transfer knowledge, to collaborate together with you and with others, no matter where you are in the world. I'd also like to thank my team over here who makes all of these moving parts of this podcast work because without them I would have some really good conversations and I do, I have a lot of fun with these conversations, but these conversations would never get shared with you, The dear listener if it was not for my team who makes this a reality. So thank you Audrey, thank you Bianca thank you rob Logan James. Thank you for ensuring every year runs smoothly for the D G. I podcast production engine. I'm grateful for all of your support from coordinating guests, all of the scheduling, to editing the audio, the production, to taking that, turning into content articles, to sharing all of this knowledge that we have gained through social media. Thank you all for making this production a reality to fulfill our purpose of one B X B T R. Finally, as this is A Special 150th episode, I'd...

...like to both thank and dedicate this episode to all of the authors that have shared their knowledge, their perspective, their expertise with both me as well as with you, the dear listener. In fact, we have welcomed 18 authors to the podcast so far and to celebrate them. We're going to do something special and break up episode 1 50 here into two different parts because I'm going to highlight the biggest key insights that each of them have shared to give you the dear listener a resource that you can reference going forward into the future, a resource that you can share with your team to educate and empower them. And there's really no better way to introduce someone to the banking on digital growth podcast than to invite them to Either listen to episode 100 where we compile the top 10 insights from the 1st 100 shows or to share episode now 1 50 both the 1st and 2nd part of episode 1 50 with all of the insights that the authors have shared to have joined me for a conversation. You can use this episode as well as part of your internal training to compile a reading list of books because I highly recommend each one of these books that each one of these authors have written. I in fact share these books for those that are in the banking on Digital Growth program to read and I've read every single one of them, so please do share this conversation with others, you know, that might find it a value as they continue to move forward and make progress along their own digital growth journey. So with that let's go ahead and get into the show. Starting with the first key insight from joe policy, who is the author of content inc when he joined me for a conversation going back to episode number 90. In fact, joe's thinking has greatly influenced me over the years, Not only the way that we approach content here at the Digital Growth Institute, but also the way that we approach our programs in in our community because when it comes to financial product development, financial product optimization, even I know this is an area, many financial brands struggle with number one. What's the problem with this legacy? Thinking of what we'll just call it, putting the product first, particularly in this post, Covid digital world. And then what's the optimal path forward beyond just pushing and promoting product here? Well, it's just so weird. We think that there's one way to start a business and that's product lead. And as I've been doing research on this audience first Model, which will, will unpack a little bit, realize that oh my gosh, okay, all these companies are creating these products and there's such a high failure rate. I mean in three years, more than 50% of these product led initiatives fail. I'm like, okay, that's interesting. You get everybody including Peter feel and every other product, business startup guru out there saying, oh, well, this is great. Just created an unbelievable product and everything will work out, but it doesn't. And so, and by the way, it's really risky and really expensive and really time consuming and you're like, okay, well this, there's got to be a better way and that's where we started. So probably by in 2014, I started interviewing these companies who created an audience first Model, which is basically they built an audience, whether that's an email newsletter, a podcast, a blog, Youtube series, tick tock, whatever the case is they built a loyal audience and then after 9, 12, 18 months, they started to monetize that audience in different ways. And then after 24 months, they diversified into...

...other areas. And then in five years generally what we find out is these startups and I know we'll talk about financial brands, but in this case the startup, five years, $5 million valuation seems fairly regular thing and they don't have the high startup costs that you do when you create a new product. And I thought that we were onto something like this can't be a thing right there. They're like, why are more people thinking about this? But we just change takes so long. People don't think that there's actually a different way to do it. So that's why I've been out on this marathon podcasting tour, I'm doing a book tour coming up, I'll tell anyone who will listen to me saying, I think there's a better way to launch a new product inside a company or to launch a new business and that's build the audience. First figure out an audience that has some unmet needs solve those pain points through consistently delivered information. And then once you do that, just listen to them, they will absolutely tell you what they're willing to purchase. And I would say the same for any financial brand out there. I agree with joe, There is no better way to launch a product to optimize a product and that can come from building an audience or what I like to say, building a community that you can collaborate with. And in fact, this idea of community is one that we're continuously focusing on here at the Digital Growth Institute, because community is to wait. Community is conversational. Community is collaboration. In fact, joe's thinking echoes some of what Patrick shared an episode number 1 47 about launching a customer advisory board. This idea of collaboration, even a customer advisory board must be at the heart of innovation, which is what Bradley Lanier, author of Beyond Good and I discuss an episode number one oh eight. Innovation is key to continued growth. I think the most important thing about innovation and where we have seen things happen is that innovation can't just be for efficiencies and can't just sort of point back into the organization is a form of profit. You know, what we found over the last 16 months of this pandemic is that so many businesses have had to pivot and you know, they did it to survive, They did it so that they could do any sort of semblance of normal during this time. And a lot of that though, that survival was survival of the top, you know, survival of the founder of the ceo of because we've seen business models just go awry. And the most important things for us to think about how our business impacts the people around us, people, that our customers. And if you're not building something that, you know, is helping people if you're not like in financial services for that reason to actually help people with their own financial lives, what are you doing? Yeah, that is a very tough question from Bradley, but one I think we must all ask ourselves from time to time if you are not in financial services to actually help people with their own financial lives, to guide them, to guide them beyond stress, to get them to a bigger, better, brighter future. What are you doing? Because once again, money is confusing, money is stressful and the stress is taking a toll on people's health, their relationships and their overall sense of well being. Think about yourself, think about your financial brand for a moment and tell the truth, Are you adding to the stress of money or are you helping to take it away? These are hard questions. Yes, but it is important to tell the truth because all transformation that leads to future growth begins by telling the truth by telling the truth about where you've been, where you're at and where...

...you can grow next. And sometimes this requires us to rethink what we know and then pivot go down a new path, a new direction which brings us to the thinking of Kirk drake, Author of financial and the insights he shared with me an episode # 63. You know, it's interesting having worked with paul Fiori at sea wallet and hundreds of other entrepreneurs over the years in masterminds and other type of functions. One of the things I I kind of pocketed away as a lesson that really applied last year was the ability to really disconnect from your perception of reality and embrace agility and change quickly. Right? And so, you know, back in the day when I was working with Fury, something came up in the business that was different than what our expectations were. Maybe it was a market change. Maybe a new competitor, maybe a client didn't, you know, go some direction that we wanted. His ability to pivot and change and go forward with the new journey was just breathtaking. I mean, it was just so fast and you know, I think it would have really taught me over time was when something crazy happens like Covid that disrupts all of your prearranged business plans and attempts to organize the world into whatever we think reality is really. The quickest thing you can do is rip off that band Aid, ignore whatever your, you know, your human brains would tell us not to leave the house and never go anywhere and never take any risks, right? So, you know, ignore all of that and lean into the facts and the information you have right then to make a different plan and change the future to be what you wanted to be. And last year was the first year where I was really able to take six or seven years of those lessons, see covid, see the impact immediately react change, you know, reassess and adjust and do that two or three times during the year and it just resulted in fantastic results, you know, across the board and everything I was involved in. I've been saying this from the start of the pandemic, a person, a teams, an organization's AQ their adaptability quotient will be a competitive strategic advantage. And here's why this is important because organizations are made up of teams, teams are made up of individuals and individuals therefore must be adaptable and adaptability requires change, so therefore change, but start from within at the individual level. And one of the biggest reasons change is hard for individuals. Four teams for org's is because we get stuck thinking how are we going to do something new? But as dan Sullivan author of who, not how, and I discussed an episode number 69 the more we can train our minds to think who before, how the more we will be able to create and capture exponential opportunities around us. What's always lagged is the human teamwork around exponential technology. And I said, you know what I'd like to do, I'd like to create a exponential teamwork concept. Okay. And you know, and this was just something that played in the back of my mind, you know, for a couple of decades. And then um it was actually Dean Jackson who's a wonderful internet marketing guru. We have a podcast together and I had introduced to him a notion that procrastination, which is seen as a very bad thing, that's a source of guilt for a lot of people. It's a shameful secret procrastinate I had come to and understanding and myself that it was actually wisdom on my part that makes...

...me procrastinate and that is, I'm I'm a big goal setter, you know, I see things in the future and I set goals, but I noticed that when I set the goal, when it came to time and take action, I wouldn't take the action and a lot of people consider this a failing of fault, something to be guilty with. And I said, what if it's wisdom, what what if the procrastination is telling me that it's a great goal, but I'm not the one to do it and that instead of asking myself, how am I going to get there, I should ask who's going to help me get there, or who's actually going to achieve it for me? And it was like, you know, it was like a lightning strike And all of a sudden, first of all the work I've done in strategic coach going back to the 1970s, all of a sudden it just sifted into place. Everything you're doing is to get entrepreneurs to be the visionary too, you know, lay out the future for other people and then put together teams of people who are, whose and they have much better skills in the entrepreneur to achieve it. And Peter Diamandis who is a advanced scout in almost every area of technology on the planet. We have a podcast series called Exponential Wisdom and I just dropped this idea on and the next podcast we said he said oh my God, uh huh, oh not hell, that's, that's maybe well there Dean Dean Jackson's words and I said, Dean is just which of us can get to the intellectual property lawyer first here, Dean was great with it, I mean it wasn't something that he was going to do anything with and he said well run with it, you know, and so uh you know, immediately went into the strategic coach program, I immediately created a small book just for coach clients and then I met Ben Hardy and tucker max, I said I think this is a major market book, but I'm not a person who can write and package and market a major market book. And Ben and tucker said, well we'll do that for you. And they found Hay House the publisher and negotiated the contracts and because of our fast start with this one, we now have a tenure 10 book contract and I'm not going to do any of the writing. Ben Ben's going to do it all and so something, you know, I dreamed about, you know, I'd have major market books, but I was just, you know, I mean James, you know, there's things you can dream all you want but you're never going to be the person that does it. Digital growth is a journey from good to great. But sometimes this journey can feel confusing, frustrating and overwhelming the good news is you don't have to take this journey alone because now you can join a community of growth minded marketing and sales leaders from financial brands and fin techs who are all learning, collaborating and growing together, visit digital growth dot com slash insider to learn more about how you can join the digital growth Insider community to maximize your future digital growth potential. Now, back to the show. Yes, indeed, thinking who before? How is a guaranteed way to not get stuck to not get trapped with capability or capacity limitations because it is often when we think how are we going to do something, the mind gets trapped in thinking why we can't do it. But when you train the mind to think who before, how, I'm not kidding, new opportunities really do begin to appear everywhere around you And an episode # 84, John Lanza, author of the art of allowance and I discussed a tremendous opportunity all financial...

...brands have to create to capture to maximize their future growth. All that aside, I actually think the biggest problem and the biggest opportunity is that financial brands are not, they're failing to recognize that it's important to connect with the parents to connect with the moms, We talk about the moms, we're not ignoring the dads, but the moms are the ones who make most of the consumer decisions in the household. And the reason that you want to do this is that we know from research that parents are going to be the guides for their kids, right, that the teens routinely say that they look to their parents and the way financial literacy works is there are three kind of main ways there's modeling, which is the kids do what you do, not what you say, they're gonna, they're gonna watch the parents. And so if you have a program that helps, not only the kids, but the parents be a better guide, great direct instruction, that's another way that kids learn. So that's gonna be the actual teaching that the parents are doing with their kids and then experience, which is a huge part of it. So financial experience, and that comes in the form, we'll talk about it, but an allowance and then going to the institution, saving their money. They're engaging with debit card as they get older, those are all part of the financial experience and ultimately it's all about introducing your kids to the language of money from a young age and then carrying through this conversation as they get older and that's, it's a big opportunity for financial brands to be the kind of steward in this area. Yeah, yes, indeed, parents will be the guides for their kids and a path towards future growth is to empower parents to be an even better financial guide, a financial coach for their kids. So my question to you is, what are you doing, what is your financial brand doing your fintech doing to empower and elevate parents with the tools with resources with the technologies. They need to be financial guides to be financial stewards for their kids. One great next step for you if this is an area that you'd like to explore further, which really begins to connect the thoughts of joe where you begin this podcast around building an audience around, building a community is expanded on the conversation that I had with Sherry Storm, author of Motherhood, is the new N. B. A. In episode number 84. So one of the things that john and I did during the pandemic is we set up these t panels for, for several different conferences around the country and what became very apparent to us when we, well we're talking with these teams and asking them questions and getting insight was that Teenagers these days are really different than teenagers even 10 years ago and the stark difference in terms of their life's experience, their opinions there is really quite remarkable. I mean, you think about, you think about kids these days, they're the only generation to have active shooter drills since kindergarten at school, right? Like how many adults even know what Alice is you ask any kid, They know, you know, they're the only generation that has always had mobile banking and home banking. You know, they're never going to write checks. They're the first generation that has never sat in front of a television and flipped through the channels because they are the generation that has had content fed to them based on what they like. They've had it curated for them, you know, and then you throw in the pandemic on top of all of that and it's just this, this particular generation is just really different. And so john and I uh, started working with that and the thing about financial institutions is they all want to be there when a consumer is...

...ready to get their first car loan or their first debit card or you know, or or their first mortgage. But what we found is kids are making those branding decisions, they're, they're building their, their alliances in there when they're young, younger than teenagers when they're 567. There's even some studies that say that some consumers figure out their brand identity by the age of two. And so one of the things that we really wanted to stress was that this is a comprehensive strategic initiative that banks and credit unions should be looking at technology drives change. And as Sherry noted, we're seeing that change cut across all generations, how might you be embracing the differences across generations at your financial brand, how might you be ensuring that you don't make assumptions to ensure you don't get trapped in your own biases and project your own world view on others. Well, data is a great way to take an objective view of the world to remove feelings, to remove emotions that might cloud our judgment and perception. However this is important because as chris Skinner notes author of doing digital chris Skinner and I discussed an episode number 67 data technology ai automation. All of those are just elements required for digital growth. But there's some other important things that we must think about and consider as well. The Ai machine learning is actually there to augment human interaction. It's not meant to replace it. And I think that this is one of the things that we get fundamentally wrong. A lot of digitalization, particularly in financial services is being cost production and getting rid of staff instead of being augmenting service and giving better customer relationships and customer advice and when you turn it around to the customer focus which is actually where we should always start, we shouldn't start with the cost focus, we should start with what is the customer need and how are they behaving and how can we be more predictive and servicing them and better at servicing them then we can augment our people with much better tools to deal with customers rather than trying to get rid of our people. It's a great point, we should start to be customer focus as opposed to I I guess traditionally would be cost focus. What can we redo to do to reduce cost? Is that a fair statement? If I use the line regularly again going back to traditional banks versus digital banks, which is traditional banks tend to push products through channels to get greater share of wallet and cross sell. Whereas digital banks start with the customer journey and need and then build the user experience to be part of a relationship interaction digitally rather than trying to actually sell them anything. Let me reinforce chris's point here. We must always start our thinking and doing with the focus on people, their questions, their concerns, their hopes, their dreams, and the opportunity here is for your financial brand, for your Fintech to define a purpose, a purpose that puts the transformation of people over the commoditized transaction of dollars and cents. This thinking about putting people at the center of all of our thinking, all of our doing has been key to our four areas of study here at the Digital Growth Institute. As our focus is rooted at the center, it's rooted at the intersection of marketing sells technology and human behavior and it is in fact human behavior that I'm personally most passionate and excited about because Human behaviour is the wild card and it really does impact the other three elements of marketing of cells of technology. This is why I enjoyed the conversation with will leach author of marketing to mind states. And some of the thinking that...

...he shared an episode number 11 Here is the idea. You know. So for the last 20 years I've studied human behavior and the psychology of messaging and what you find out especially in the last decade is that we are influenced by context. We all have attitudes. We have beliefs. I have my own belief system, James Robert, you have yours. We all have attitudes and preferences. Things like that. We've known this for a long time. What a mind state is. Are these moments when context like the current context we're all in right now from a global perspective or context influences our attitudes, our beliefs, our values, things like that. So a mind state takes into consideration these moments. These moments can last anywhere in between a couple of minutes to where I think these moments gonna last for a couple of months given the new environment with political and biological and financial markets. So specifically in mind state are these temporary moments of emotional arousal And when you have emotional arousal, you're much more susceptible to emotional decision making. And so it's kind of like the Holy grail. If you're in marketing of understanding why emotional marketing works, it's because you're tapping into a psychological mindset. If you don't know the mind state. You know a much better way of engaging with consumers. Mm hmm. People buy with their heart and then maybe but not always they then justify that purchase with their mind. This is why moments matter. This is why experiences matter because what is an experience, experiences. We define it here at the Digital Growth Institute and experience is just a well defined system or process that has been strategically thought out Applied. And the key is this optimized over a period of time resulting in either a positive emotion or be a negative emotion. And as I look out at the future of marketing in the next 2-3 years I really do see marketing teams going beyond pushing and promoting commoditized products but transforming to become experience engineers and to become an experienced engineer. And really be viewed as an experience engineered throughout the entire organization. Not just marketing teams being viewed as kids that play with paint and crayons or glorified in house Kinko's there to serve the last minute needs of others. This is going to require courage. It's going to require marketing teams and sells teams and leadership teams to try new things. Because otherwise I guarantee you the past will become the predictable future. As John Oxford, author of no more next time and I discussed an episode # nine. Well, let's think about this. You work in the financial services industry. I do as well. There's two things bankers hate risk and expense. They like to save money better margin. You know, it's all about saving, not spending on the bank side and then risk, they don't like risk, We like to know what's going on, We know our clients, there's the uh the credit piece of it. And so when you got bankers mostly think about how can I eliminate risk and how can I eliminate expenses. And so marketing is completely different. It's always a risk to put a message out there, whether it be compliance, risk, reputational risk, expense, risk, there's always a risk. So you're doing something that makes you vulnerable out the gate. I've had plenty of campaigns that were completely rejected by executive management when we when I pitched them and I've had plenty that it that have been like this is gonna be the coolest thing you've ever done. And so it's almost like when you hear actors talking about when they go pitch to be in a movie or something, how many times they get turned down, even the best ones before they get one, like you're rejected for 400 before you land one. It's kind of a marketing is a lot of your ideas and a lot of your creative is gonna be rejected because of risk and expense. You, you know, you want to make this huge add, well they...

...won't pay for it or you want to do something that's really cool, but does it, is it too funny And so your bank is more of a stodgy column marble looking bank. And so trying to be humorous, Is it really in your brand narrative? So then that gets pushed aside because of a risk that maybe as a ceo thinks they don't want to do. And so it is vulnerable because you're putting yourself out there, you're taking a risk on reputation, you're taking a risk on building an audience. And so so look, and you're doing everything, it gets what banks do, risk and expense because you're spending money without a sure R. O. I on the front end with content. Now look, you can build, you can build our own model, but on the front and when you're pitching it, it's really hard to unless you're just kind of making it up true R. O. I especially in just brand. And so look, I'm telling you it's vulnerable and mark, you just have to be brave. I know it sounds funny, but it's like, I don't want to be demeaning towards military, but kind of being a soldier, you gotta go out there and put your guns out and take your shot. And a lot of times you're gonna miss. And a lot of times you're gonna hit, but you got to be brave and you got to be, you know, willing to take some risk and I don't think banks do that enough and I don't mean like crazy risks, like don't get into like compliance issues and trying to mislead or anything, but you've got to get out there? And just banks were real hesitant to get out there and try to be as good at marketing. Is that I think we can be. Mhm So where might you need to build courage? Where might you be able to help others build their own courage? The courage to commit the courage to commit the courage to move beyond your own digital growth journey with confidence to overcome some of the fears. You might have fears of the unknown, fear of change, fear of failure. Because as we wrap up this first part of episode number 1 50 you probably have some questions that you're thinking about right now. Something you might have heard from one of the authors, something that you'd like to gain some some additional clarity around and you can go definitely grab their book, dive into their thinking listen to the expanded conversation. But I also want to give you an opportunity, I want to invite you To text your biggest digital marketing cells or leadership question to me, texture question 28325495792. I really do read all of them because I'd like to invite you to join me for an upcoming clarity calls conversation in the near future where we'll talk through your question together on this podcast until then keep an ear out for the second part of episode number 1 50 where I will share the top insights from the other nine authors that have joined me for a banking on digital growth conversation up to this point as always, and until next time be well. Do good and make your bed. Thank you for listening to another episode of banking on digital growth with James robert, ley to get even more practical and proven insights along with coaching and guidance, visit digital growth dot com slash insider to join a community of growth minded marketing and sales leaders from financial brands and fin techs until next time, be well and do good. Mhm. Yeah. Mm. Yeah.

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