Banking on Digital Growth
Banking on Digital Growth

Episode · 4 months ago

215) #DigitalGrowthJourneys - Give and Grow: Building a Strategy Around Purpose


What has digital growth meant to you, personally and professionally?

Everyone’s story is unique, but each lesson learned is an opportunity to help others along the way.

I had the pleasure of talking with Cathy Graham, Executive Vice President of Desert Financial Credit Union, about her personal transformation as a financial leader.

Together, we celebrated a journey driven by a purpose: to give and to grow.

Join us as we discuss:

  • Avoiding burnout in an often misplaced pursuit of perfection (7:21)
  • Why training programs are often an early victim of budget cuts (16:37)
  • Maintaining boundaries between personal and professional life (22:05)

Check out these resources we mentioned during the podcast:

- Cathy Graham

- Desert Financial Credit Union

- Chief

You can find this interview and many more by subscribing to Banking on Digital Growth on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, or here.

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for Banking on Digital Growth in your favorite podcast player.

I do think it's critically important to make sure that people are put in very high regard, very high in the priority order, because that's who you're gonna need to leverage opportunities in good times and get through the bad times. You are listening to banking on digital growth with James Robert Lay, a podcast that empowers financial brand marketing, sales and leadership teams to maximize their digital growth potential by generating ten times more loans and deposits. Today's episode is part of the Digital Growth Journey series, where James Robert Uncovers and explores some of the industry's biggest digital marketing and sales stories of success. Let's get into the show readings then. Hello, I am James Robert Lay and welcome to episode to fifteen of the banking on digital growth podcast. Today's episode it is part of the digital growth journey series and I'm excited to welcome Cathy Graham to the show. Kathy is the Executive Vice President at Desert Financial Credit Union, where she shares that her job is to show up every day prepared to help people to be their best, as she challenges herself, as well as others, to always step out of the comfort zone and into the learning zone to grow and find new ways to add value. Welcome to the show, Cathy. It is so good to share time with you today. Thank you so much for having me. I'm super excited before we start really digging deep into your your your digital growth journey and, I would say maybe even deeper into just your own personal growth journey. What is good for you right now, either personally or professionally? We always want to start off on a positive note here. Well, I'm gonna start personal. Um, UH, my daughter and son in law, I just had their second baby, daughter three weeks ago. So I have an amazing two year old granddaughter and an Amazing Three Week old granddaughter and I'm I'm all about grandma life. So that's a really high point in my life right now. At work, I think it's really kind of navigating everything that's happening and trying to be very mindful and purposeful every day about where can I help? So I don't know all the answers, but is there somebody that I can listen to? Is there somebody I can remove a roadblock for, or is there somebody that needs a nudge? Just trying to find out all the places at work where I can be helpful. You know, I think you're you make a really good point there and it's a it's a it's a great admission. I don't know all the answers and I don't think that we can know all the answers anymore, particularly in the complex and confusing and the chaotic world that we live in. But the good news is is something that I learned and had him on for a conversation. His name is Dan Sullivan and he wrote a book with Dr Jimin Hardy, who's an organ...

...psychologist. In the book was called who, not how, and the thesis of the book is we we really stump ourselves in limit our our potential growth when we think how, how are we going to do this? How am I going to do this? When the opportunity is to think who do I need to to find or who do I know? That can be the how too. By what? And you mentioned plans. Before we hit record we always make these great big plans for the year and then life happens Um and it's I feel like we're probably going to be in a cycle like this for a while to where our whole planning system needs to be optimized slightly, to be a little bit more agile. How are you dealing with all of this? We'll call it this massive change that we've experienced and we probably will continue to experience. I think there's two things that I try to leverage. One is eight twenty. Look, how are we gonna? Let's get let's get something eight percent great and let's let's get moving Um and then the close followers progress over perfection. Honestly, perfectionism is is difficult to have right now because there's no time to create a perfect plan and I think a lot of times in organizations you have people that have been there for a long time and they have all this deep institutional knowledge and they know every nuance and possible scenario. So they want to create the plan to the NTH degree that accounts for every possible exception, and there's no time to do that anymore. So how do you get a plan that's eighty percent done, eighty percent great? Start Making uh, start moving forward and and be focusing on progress and allow yourself to fail. These are two key points we teach in the banking on digital growth program and I want to get your take on this, because you know it was Jim Collins who wrote in good to great. Uh. He said good is the enemy of great and I like the idea of the rule. You know, we're big believers in progress is greater than perfection. But I see in the financial services space we are all a lot of leaders are striving for perfection to where it's almost to a fault and it's harmful. What would you say to the dear listener who might either a be that leader? How can they transform or be? Maybe they work for someone like that and they're just getting really burned out because because of the world that we've been in, I think when when you think about perfectionism, Um and I think burn a brown does a really nice job when she talked about armored leadership and perfectionism. It's so heavy to carry that burden around and so finding somebody and having a conversation and saying I know how heavy this feels on you. This need for this... be right, this need for this to be perfect is weighing on you. Let me take that off of you. Let me take that precure and that heaviness off and say let's talk about a plan that's pretty darn good. The plan that's good enough to get started, because it's not fun to live in that world where you're feeling that pressure. To your point, burn a brown, great thinker. She wrote on the subject perfectionism. Quote. Perfectionism is a twenty ton shield that we lug around thinking it will protect us, when in fact it's the thing that really prevents us from being seen and taking flight. I want to leap back in your mind, and maybe just three years, because I think three years is a good horizon line to look back. We've experienced a lot, especially over the last two but it's also important to look a little bit before that. When you look back, what have been the biggest lessons that you have learned along your own digital growth journey? One of them that is was just very liberating is there's no such thing as a perfect strategy. So again to the pressure to create a perfect strategy and carbon in stone and be able to execute on a tenure vision. So so giving yourself permission to come up with something that's pretty darn good based on what you know now, Um, and giving yourself flexibility to constantly evaluate it and adapted. I think it's just taken pressure off Um that there's no such thing as a perfect strategy. Um, I think putting people first is extremely important, especially we're talking about you talk about digital transformation, and then there's you know, crazy things that happen in the world and are we going into a recession or aren't we? Um, I do think it's critically important to make sure that people are put in very high regard, very high in the priority order, because that's who you're going to need to leverage opportunities in good times and get through through the bad times, and it if you can have a focus on that, it just provides you'll do the right thing, you'll do the right things for the business. So I think that's a really important one. And then another one is gonna sound very, very fluffy, but it's, I think, being really clear on your culture and your mission vision values are extremely important. I think mission vision values sounds fluffy and it's like, Oh, yeah, it's it's that. Will put that to we can't, we don't have time to think about that. We're trying to deal with a crisis or you know, oh, that's just platitudes on our intranet side or our employee APP Um. I think in the organization that I work in and desert financial being very, very clear about what we stand for and our mission, envision and values has made it easier to navigate challenges, made it easier to navigate the pandemic. It's making it easier to see some potential storm clouds on the horizon and know how to respond. Um. So none of those...

...are about technology, but those have been serving as pretty well and I think that right there is maybe it's the quote unquote secret or or the key to unlock digital growth. And digital growth is the result that I'm finding of of what we're defining as exponential growth, where individuals are achieving personal and professional growth at the same time. Because when the conversation is really framed around technology, well, then the thinking is really framed around technology, and technology is no more than a tool or a multiplier. It'll multiply the positive, but it will also multiply the negative on the flip side. And and you made a note about the recession, and I'm just thinking about like you know where y'all are located in the United States. It reminds me of a story, worry, that I heard, Um from the nineteen eighties. There was a real estate developer in your area, Um that decided to put some billboards up around town and the billboard was a very simple message. It said recession question mark. We're not participating. And this particular developer ended up exponentially multiplying their growth when everyone else was, uh, you know, going inward, they were expanding and I think that it makes a lot of sense and it's a natural fight or flight response when things get challenging to want to constrict and to go inwards, where it you know, back to burn a brown. It takes a lot of courage to lean in and and expand. But, you know, having lived through a couple of recessions down myself and and navigated that as a C Eo, I I'm really coming back to my past of we've been here, we've done it. When we leaned in, we came out on the other side that much more, you know, stronger, and it wasn't about us, it was about people. And I want to come back to this point of people. Let's talk culture for a bit, because you mentioned mission, you mentioned vision, you mentioned values. I think purpose also plays a role in this as well. Where are you, and we'll call it your purpose journey, whether it's the organization or maybe just yourself personally, because in banking on change, I'm writing that you really have to care for growth, and cares another acronym, because their acronyms are plenty, and digital growth Topia. But the C is is you really need to cause greater than the present moment Um, because when it's like the old ancient wisdom, you know, where there is no purpose, the people perish. What's your purpose? If, if we'll just get, you know, get real personal here,...

...and I think our our our purpose is very similar to, you know, a lot of credit unions. We believe our purposes to make lives better. So uh, we, we, it's part of our our mission. But I think we've kind of taken our purpose and our Y and we have built a corporate strategy around that. So our corporate strategy is called give and grow. Is it three words? Given, grow, Um. And you know, you mentioned a virtuous circle. It is a virtuous circle where the more that we are able to grow as an organization and be financially strong, we can invest in employees, members in the community in big, meaningful ways. So what I mean by that is in the last four years we've given back fifty million dollars to our members in the in the form of a year end dividend. So fifty million dollars in four years for our employees. We will we fully pay for them to get uh their degree through a s U online. We pay for it up front. You don't get rambursed, we don't care. You just have to pass. You can take nursing even if you're in the accounting department. So that's millions of dollars. And then we invest millions of dollars in the community every year too. And we truly believe that taking care of people, giving back to people, will lead to growth. And we've been growing our membership base more than ten percent a year, where back in we were growing historically less than one percent a year. And that idea of taking care of people. So I'm hearing some themes and patterns pop up here. It starts internally uh and and, and I think that's where I'm trying to redeem myself just a little bit, because whenever whatever I wrote banking on digital growth, I was so focused on the what we'll call it the the end result growth, and I wrote the formula approach. D X plus H X equals growth. Digital experience plus human experience cools growth and get a lot of positive feedback. And but then covid happened and I'm like no, no, no, I got it wrong. We gotta go rewrite that formula, and that really led to the second book. E X plus h x multiplied by D x. That is the path for growth, because a positive employee experience leads to a positive human experience that can be exponentially multiplied through a positive digital experience. And so when I think about a positive employee experience, I'm I'm feeling a little bit concerned right now looking out at the marketplace and thinking about the next maybe one to three years. One of the very first things that gets cut when times get hard is training, education development, and I'm like, I hope that we've learned from the past that we don't make the same mistakes going forward. What's your take on that? Number one, why is training development the first thing to get cut? Because we already have a knowledge gap. It's being written about prolifically now. I'm almost like,...

...if we cut training at this point, we're cutting off the future potential for so many. What's what's happening here? It seems unnecessary. It's sad to say that it seems unnecessary. There's a you know, there are a million different magic quadrants, but there's one quadrant that is it's urgency on one axis and importance on the other axis. Employee training is important, but not urgent. Unless you're trying to launch something new or unless it's a unique circumstance. Investing in your employees feels like something you could kick the can down the road. But there there are other things that are the crying babies, it's the ringing telephone. I cannot ignore this. I it's urgent and important, but it's very frequent that organizations kick the can down the road on those important, not urgent. By the way, those are all the strategic things. Those, you're all the self sustaining things that tend to not get the TLC. That the that the you know, the crying baby is getting at the moment. So I think it's important to be really purposeful. Yeah, and I think that comes back to you know, when you think about business strategy, that business strategy rooted in mission, vision, values, purpose, a cause greater than the present moment. It allows you to continuously create for a future that that is not here yet, because but you know that the actions that you take in the present moment will create value far greater than what you're investing the present moment. It's almost like it's it's basic economics. You invest in your people, it will have a multiplier payback going forward into the future. And on your experience here, you had posted a while back on Linkedin. You said two years ago you took on the role of e V P and your first reaction it was excitement, you were energized. And then you're can reaction was, wait a minute, and I'm quoting you here, said, wait a minute, I'm not sure I know how to be an e v P. and you mentioned that you were very comfortable, Um, in your role as a line of business leader, but you questioned what should the day to day look like in this new role? And and then you realize, and I'm gonna quote you again, you said I have a huge opportunity here. How I am I making the most of the fresh start? How could I be purpose purposeful about defining this role and where I invest my time? And then, boom, the excitement came back. Imposter Syndrome is real, Um, I you know, I deal with it myself because I I think there's always and maybe a lot of it's rooted in comparison or it's some type of, you know, backstory that we got to deal with. But what what's the role here? We'll call it mindset, UM, that that you've really worked on to you know, if you look back over your entire...

...journey, how has mindset been a part of this for you? I think it's critically important and and the idea of self awareness and knowing what your mindset is. What are the stories that you're telling yourself? Um, you know, uh, I went through some stuff a number of years ago and had a great opportunity to work with an executive coach and he pointed out to me where my mindset was in my way and it changed my life. It absolutely changed my life. Where was I giving myself permission not to try or to be there's nothing I can do, you know? Where was I holding myself back? Where was I playing the victim? You know, nobody wants to think they play the victim. See Yourself doing it, you're like, Oh Gosh, I'm doing it, um, but being able to to work with somebody and identify fight how my mindset was causing me to respond or not respond was just a game changer. Digital growth is a journey from good to great, but sometimes this journey can feel confusing, frustrating and overwhelming. The good news is you don't have to take this journey alone, because now you can join a community of growth minded marketing and sales leaders from financial brands and fin techs who are all learning, collaborating and growing together. VISIT DIGITAL GROWTH DOT com slash insider to learn more about how you can join the digital growth insider community to maximize your future digital growth potential. Now back to the show. So I feel very strongly as a leader that's part of my job now to help people get where are you in your own way? Or I hear you say these words, you know, saying words like everyone's out to get me. Let's break that down and talk talk about that, because that feels terrible, by the way, when you feel like everyone's out to give you, that feels awful. How do we get to what is really going on and point out to you your your story really isn't helping you? Let's put that story down and pick up a story that feels a whole lot more hopeful. Yeah, and I that's that word it's hope? Yes, it's hope, it's optimism, and even in banking on digital growth, I wrote, you know, when when it comes to finances, when it comes to financial stress and money, people are looking for two things. They're looking for help and they're looking for hope, but hope often has to come far before they're even able to receive help. You note in in something else that you wrote, how important it is as a leader to step back, to to to to to create space and time to rest, to recharge, to gain some balance. But a lot of times we just want to push through, we to...

...push onwards and upwards, when at that point it's more of a cost than anything. And I'm reading more and more research now and I think it's become very clear work life balance isn't necessarily a thing. It's more like how work life integration? How are we able to integrate the two, to use your words, where we create borders and boundaries so it's integrated, but it's integrated with borders and boundaries so that we create this space and time to review and to reflect and to learn to think, that we don't get stuck in the dangerous zone of just doing. What's your take? On that. I think it's really easy to tell ourselves because we're busy. I have to but I have to work at night, but I have to, you know, I have to constantly be on my phone. It's really, really easy to get sucked into that and there's a multiple, multiple reasons, some of them which feed our ego. But it's critically important to give yourself space. I'm going to I there are times where, at night and on weekends, my phone isn't even in the same room with me. I make it a point to put it somewhere else. I check it, of course I do, but I don't have it next to me dinging and buzzing while I'm trying to spend time with my family or while I'm just trying to decompress. I tell people I think about work. I Love My job, I love this company, I'm excited by it, but I can't be working emails. Uh, it's just gonna dream. And so I read something that said that boundaries are one of the three most important things to having a happy life. The other things include friends and family love, but having clear boundaries. Um gives you space to recharge. Um gives you space to be present with the people that you love and and sends a message to people. Oh, because everybody that I work with is like, oh, that's that's Kathy, those are her boundaries. They're not mad about it, they're just like, oh, Cathy really likes to recharge, so I'm probably not gonna barrage her with a million emails on Sunday night and expect a response in five seconds. Right. Yeah, and I think that I've been thinking a lot about this and you know, once again, you mentioned you worked with an executive coach. I've been in an executive coaching program now in one way, shape form of fashion over the last decade and my personal experience I've probably gotten a greater value from the program that I'm in right now, called strategic coach for entrepreneurs, and it's not one on one, it's more of the group and I learned probably so much more from my peers and their experiences than just from, you know, working with with Dan Sullivan. And that the thing when when it comes to work. Um, I've been thinking about the idea of addiction. It's almost like... know well, call entrepreneurship, executive leadership, whatever it is, it's the honorable addiction in today's modern society and because I do find, you know, having struggled addiction in the past myself, I do find there are there are addictive patterns. That come back to the points that you mentioned before, the idea of ongoing awareness. And it's not just awareness, but that's where the team comes back into play. It's the accountability that is really needed to know, maintain that ongoing awareness and then change the patterns and the behaviors going forward, because growth is not something that we can do alone. Um, it's it is a really a team effort, as a team sport. And you're a member of of of chief. What is chief, first and foremost, because I think it's something that a lot of the listeners could gain some value from. Number One, and the number two. What have you gained by being a part of a group like this? Chief is an organization that was founded to really empower UH female leaders, to empower them, promote them and give them uh you know, a space to encourage each other. When you were talking about Appeer, coaching, uh and and just having access to individuals that uh can share experiences or, you know, share learning. So it's a really great online community, but there's also opportunities to meet in person. There are more meetups uh, than anybody could possibly participate in. Um, but they also get you set up with a peer cohort to just touch base with every couple of weeks and share experiences and, Um, you know, I think there's a lot of pressure on executives today. I think there are pressures on female executives that, you know, maybe somewhat different or similar to others, and and just having a place to go. Oh, I was trying to be perfect. I don't want anybody to see that I can't be perfect. And so just hearing from other female executives and learning from each other, I think is is just a really great opportunity, because people don't want to feel that they're not good enough or that they're doing it wrong. I just there's a really great quote from Robin Williams. It says everyone you meet is fighting a battle you know nothing about, because, Um, and so I think it's really easy for us to look at somebody who looks like their life is perfect. I'm sure to some people that look like, oh, Cathy has it all figured out. We all have struggles and insecurities and, you know, things that we're battling with and and to be able to have a group of people to share that with and to go. That's normal. You're not alone. I think it's really important. I think the more that we can help to facilitate these really honest dialogues and discussions, the better...

...that we will be as individuals, as as teams, as Mother's, Father's, daughters, sons, grandmother's. You know, it's because we, like you said, that Robin Williams quote, really is so we're all struggling, we're all battling something, but it's we don't we should have to battle it alone. I mean, if you think about narrative arc type and like you know the writings of Joseph Campbell Um, Luke didn't defeat the dark side or blow up the desk star by himself. You know, he had a team. FRODO didn't go to more door by himself. He had a team, even even Daniel Son and the Krowdy Kid, he had Mr Miyagi guiding him along the way. But I have a question for you, because we do a lot of cohort UH training Um with the Bakiel digital growth program with organizations. We're getting ready to open this up for individuals who have said we want to do we want to work with this, we want to do something like this, but we don't have the support of the team and I asked, well, why? And a lot of it comes down to time. You know, people just don't want to spend the time and I think that's interesting. It's that language. They don't want to spend the time, and I'm like, what if we reframe this? We're going to invest the time because there will be like any type of investment that we make, it will come back and pay off going forward into the future. But, like you said, you have these beat ups. You beat every couple of weeks. It's important to you. But once again, what would you say to someone who is like Ah, I just I just don't have the time? How dangerous is that? Um, I think it's a story, it's a narrative and I think I'm stealing this quote potentially from Sy Wakeman, who said you, me, beyonce and Jeff Bezos all have the same number of hours in the day. What are you doing with yours? You look at what Jeff Bezo is accomplishing, but beyonce look some of the most successful people in the world. They don't have more time than we have. So the great business contest. We need to let go of that and and it is a struggle, because the universe wants us to spend time on more things than we can. But how are you waking up and investing your hours? I think it's really important because it's the one commodity you can never ever get back and if you look at it as a limited, finite resource and if you look at it as investing your time, I think you would make different choices. I've been thinking about another acronym. It's almost like we need to have our morning tea. And what I mean by that we must question ourselves, and a lot of this is being, you know, inspired by the reading I've been doing over the last couple of years with Stoicism, because, you know, if stoicism and and that school of thought and philosophy has survived, you know, two, three thousand years, I think it's more oplicable now in the noisy, distracted world we live in, but it's you know, how are you...

...investing your time, spending your energy, because energy is something that it depletes, so there's a cost associated with that. And then what are you paying attention to Um, because it's like what you pay attention to is going to inform your thoughts. Your thoughts are going to inform your beliefs, which then inform your behaviors, your actions, your habits, and that becomes your predictable future right there. But then, once again, now it's about creating space and time to pause, reflect. And you know, Seneca and Marcus Aureally is were prolific journal they wrote in their journal. I mean even you know Marcus a realist. You could read his writings, one of the most powerful guys on Earth Two thousand years ago. You can go and read and he had the same struggles like, like you mentioned, Jeff Bezos, same struggles there are. We're all people. Were all human beings. That's the human condition. But I want to ask you this, knowing what you know now, what is one thing that you'd go back and tell your younger self? I guess maybe the importance of vulnerability and and being more open to speaking up when I didn't know or didn't understand or was uncomfortable, versus trying to fake it. Um. I think it took me way too long to learn that vulnerability is is valuable. Um. And Yeah, it just took me way too long to do that. Yeah, Um, it's I'm right there with you. I mean the you know, the more that I got vulnerable, Um, I think, the better things become. And I I can't put a scientific reason or quantifiable perspective to it, it's just it's just a feeling, Um, and it took time to get to that space. But I heard something recently and I wrote this down. Um, until you feel safe, you won't have the freedom to build something from a place of gratitude and not pain. And I think a lot of a lot of this was Joe Polish, Um, who I think he's out in your your neck of the woods as well, and just another great thinker working with entrepreneurs. But until you feel safe, you won't have the freedom to build something from a place of gratitude and not pain. Um. But that's where hope comes back into play, right. It's like we we've always have tomorrow is a new day. Tomorrow is is a chance to write a new story, to transform our behaviors, our our habits, our actions. And if you look ahead towards the future yourself, what are you most hopeful and excited about for the work that you're doing at the credit union. Um, I'm gonna bring it on home to you know, digital and transformation, and I mentioned earlier that we have a three words strategy called give and grow. What we've realized that we can give and grow, but we also need to transform. So we just updated our our strategy to give and grow, two point Oh. And so now we have a virtuous circle with three overlapping concentric circles where transformation has a has an end game, and the end game is we want to be able... transform to stay relevant, so that we continue to grow, so we can continue to give back. So it's transformation with a purpose. Um. So I'm really excited because it feels digitally everyone's talking about digital transformation or business transformation, it's like that's yeah, but why and how? And once we decided that we could aim digital and transformation at give and grow, it felt exciting. So that might mean that we might come up with some really great financial wellness APPs that you don't even have to be a member to use, and maybe high schools can use them to teach people consumer math, because we really guess we don't do that anymore. So the idea that we are going to stay true to our culture, but we're also going to transform and it's going to be kind of the engine that empowers us to give and grow on a greater scale. That's what I'm most excited about. Yeah, the idea of, you know, consumer finance in high school. Um, got to give a shout out to Scott dunnell with gravy stack, who's also out in your neck of the woods. He's doing some really good stuff on the Fintech side of things. Uh, you know, focused on eight, nine ten year olds, gamifying a lot of this education through the gravy stack APP, and he's been a guest on the podcast. I want to get real practical as we start to wrap up. Think about, you know, your your journey, what you've learned along the way, and the dear listener. There's a lot that they can do from what we had talked about. But if we can just distill this down, because all transformation that leads to future growth begins with a small, simple step, just one step. What would the next best step that you would recommend the dear listener consider taking on their own journey of growth, on their own journey for digital growth? Yes, Um, I think you have to obviously stay curious and don't be intimidated when you don't know. Um, you know, I think it's super important for us to be comfortable stepping out of our comfort zone. Comfort zone is also your armor. This is where I'm an expert, so I really don't want to step out of it. But when you step out of the comfort zone you step into the learning zone. So none of us know everything about digital growth. If you went online and looked at all the digital technology software just in marketing or just in lending or just an option, you would be immediately overwhelmed. Um, but be curious. It's okay to step out of your comfort zone and it's okay to try and fail. You don't have to get this perfect. You will make mistakes. If you don't make mistakes, you're not trying to transform enough. And there's that idea. Failure is learning, you know, failure is think of a failure as the fertile soil where we plant seeds for future growth, and that's a whole mindset shift there. I think...

...for many that we've been conditioned from our early years. Oh, failures bad, even you know I'm I'm advocating for teachers. Don't use a red pen. You know it's red, the color. Psychology. Uh, you know, there's there's so much that we get in grain from an early age that the older we get we're more conditioned to fear failure. There's a fantastic exercise I love doing a leadership teams where we take spaghetti and duct tape and you know, we build a spaghetti tower. It's probably Spaghetti and marshmallows, but duct tape sounds way better. Well, yeah, the same, the same idea, and that then. And then what you do is at the very top you put the marshmallow. And what we find from this exercise is executive leadership teams perform poorly. Um, because they'll they'll, they and you give him a time like fifteen nuts. Well, that's been the first five to seven minutes strategizing, trying to plan the structure and whatnot, and then they'll wait till the very last minute to put the marshmallow on top and time it fails, it falls over. But when you do this with children, and this was that there's a total ted talk around the subject. When when done with children, kindergarteners even specifically, they'll outbuild Harvard NBA's Day in and day out. For one reason, they just start building and they're not afraid to fail there and because what they're doing is it's rapid learning, it's ongoing learning. And speaking about ongoing learning, this has been a great conversation. Cathy. What is what is the what's the next best step that someone can take to connect with you if they want to continue to learn and and just say hello? I would reach out on Linkedin. I'm very active, I pay attention all the time. I will see your message right away. The email is not so much, but if you reach out on Linkedin, I will absolutely see you connect with Cathy, learn with Cathy, grow with Kathy. Cathy, this has been a great conversation. Thank you for joining me for another episode of banking on digital growth. Thank you. This just flu thank you so much. It should did as always, and until next time, be well, do good and make your bed. Thank you for listening to another episode of banking on digital growth with James Robert Lay. To get even more practical and proven insights, along with coaching and guidance, visit digital growth dot com slash insider to join a community of growth minded marketing and sales leaders from financial brands and fin techs. Until next time, be well and do good.

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