Banking on Digital Growth
Banking on Digital Growth

Episode · 6 months ago

144) #ExponentialInsights: Sales & Relationship-Building in a Digital World

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

It’s time to face reality: Banking is not going back to the “good ol’ days.”

Whether that means the ‘70s, when customers begged for loans, or a couple years ago when banking was still mostly done in person.

And if banks don’t understand that, the only good ol’ days they’ll relive happened about 65 million years ago — when all the other dinosaurs disappeared.

Today’s guest, Jack Hubbard, Chief Experience Officer at St. Meyer & Hubbard, got his start in banking back in the supposed good ol’ days of the ‘70s and, for him, there are no better days than the ones we’re living now.

Well, for financial brands who learn to sell and build relationships in a digital world, that is.

In this episode, we discuss:

- The changes in banking and how banks can adapt

- The difference between a sales culture and a performance culture

-Why LinkedIn is something financial brands should embrace, not fearn Digital Growth on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify , or here .

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for Banking on Digital Growth in your favorite podcast player.

And it's fascinating to me how some of these community bankers uh in small banks 7 50 a billion less than that. They're still in the dark ages as it relates to sales and we better we better wise up or or were our industry is a dinosaur if we're if we're not careful mm you're listening to banking on digital growth. With James robert lay a podcast that empowers financial brand, marketing, sales and leadership teams To maximize their digital growth potential by generating 10 times more loans and deposits. Today's episode is part of the exponential insight series where James robert ley interviews the industry's top marketing sales and fin tech leaders, sharing practical wisdom to exponentially elevate you and your team. Let's get into the show greetings and hello, I am James robert, ley and welcome to the 144th episode of the Banking on digital growth podcast. Today's episode is part of the exponential insight series and I'm excited to welcome Jack Hubbard to the show. Jack is the chief experience officer at ST Meyer and Hubbard helping to transform the way bankers hold virtual and face to face trust based conversations, which is a very important subject, particularly as we're continuing to move through a post Covid experience into a digital first world. Welcome to the show Jack. Well, James robert, it's uh it's a real privilege. You have an amazing name in the industry, everybody in the world knows you and it's a, it's a real honor to be under show today. Well, thank you, thank you for the kind words and thank you for being on as well before we get into this conversation around cells and building relationships in a digital world, I'm curious to know what is going well for you right now. What's good personally, professionally, it's always your pick to start. You know, I When I'm at age 71, getting up in the morning and having a lot of energy to continue to serve clients is a really important thing for me. The other thing that I'm really enjoying a lot is uh you know, we have 12 people in our business and six of them are either ST Myers or Hubbard's and so what really excites me is to be able to sit down with the family and chat through marketing and sales and training and everybody brings something so unique to the table. I guess the other thing that's exciting for me and this isn't exciting for a lot of people, but I I love seeing the changes that are going on in banking. I I think bankers have been forced in a lot of ways to become more entrepreneurial, more involved in technology, which is, you're certainly level of expertise and I think we've been forced to be closer to the customer and all of those things, even though the pandemic has been a horrible situation have been a very positive...

...long term end, I think for banking, well you make a great point. The pandemic has been hard, it's been challenging. But I think two minds that when you look for the good, when you look for the opportunities in those challenging situations, you can come out on the other side, even better than what you were before. And and take yourself for example, I mean you know you've You've been doing one thing focused on one industry banking, teaching cell skills. Um and and really doing this in the industry that you've loved since the day that you've joined it as a collector and a loan officer going back to 1973. Take me back, take me back to 1973. What was life like? What was cells like in banking back then? Well and it goes back farther because when I was very young, my my mom and dad for christmas I think my grandparents were probably involved in this too bought me a wall in sac tape recorder. A lot of people will not remember what those were because we record on our phones now, but there was a huge recorder, tape recorder real too real. And they gave me a microphone and I was always been a big cub fan and I always wanted to be the play by play voice of the Chicago cubs. So I would turn the sound down on the television, recording editing, listened back to it and I would do that constantly. And then I did football etcetera. So when I went to college that was my whole background and that's what I really wanted to do. But when I graduated from college I had gotten married in 1972 and we I needed a job it was late 1972 and I saw a two line ad uh in a management recruiters is the name of the company and it was a bank collector uh and two line ad blind and I answered it and I was fortunate enough to uh get it, get the job and that's when I started. But to your point about sales, it's interesting. One of my mentors is a gentleman named Kent stickler who is so famous in the industry and a wonderful wonderful amazing man. And he and I used to talk a lot about banking and how we owned in the seventy's 74% of the market share of the financial services industry. I've read a statistic that we're down to 14% or less and I think unfortunately we've let that go and part of it is hubris Part of it is when I was in banking in 73. Um And when I was in collecting and then I got into marketing and sales I would see people come into the bank and virtually begged for alone and there were people called platform people and they were E. V. P. S. And they sat on the platform and the platform was even a step above people so they have to step up or they would have to sit below the platform. and and to get alone, they basically had to beg for it because we were the only game in town Now it's so much different and I think it's forced bankers to be a lot more creative. So needless to say as you mentioned since 1973, sales have just migrated so fast. But I think one of the challenges and I think I see this...

...especially in community banking is that a lot of bankers are still living in the dark ages. I'm grading papers now James robert for L. S. U. Graduate School of Banking and it's fascinating to me how some of these community bankers uh in small banks 7 50 a billion less than that. They're still in the dark ages as it relates to sales and we better we better wise up or or were our industry as a dinosaur if we're if we're not careful. Yes because to your point this idea being in the dark ages we've seen the transformation exponentially increase over the last 18 months as a result of the pandemic change was already happening before changes in technology which was driving changes in consumer behavior the way they shop, the way they buy, which was driving changes in the way of of competition, I. E. Fintech but the last 18 months has increased the transformational speed moving from the physical world of brick and mortar and great point on like even the idea of the way that branches were structured the platform elevating people, people having to step up to that level or or be below it. Um That's not the case anymore. What have you seen, looking back, not just over the past year since 73, but really just the last 18 months of the exponential changes, the exponential transformations when it comes to cells, particularly when We can't see people, people don't come into the branch anymore. If they do they're they're already 80% of the way along a buying journey. They just need to get a little bit more confirmation. You know, back in the late eighties when deregulation happened, bankers really wanted to have control, give us control of our industry because we used to operate in what we used to call a 363 rule of banking bringing in at three, lend it out at six and be on the golf course by three o'clock. You had to be a complete idiot or complete criminal not to make money and banking back then. So when when the 80s happened in deregulation happened, everybody liked it, but nobody knew what to do with it. Um so the elephant in the room was okay, there's deregulation, we can do whatever we want, but what do we do and I think that's the same thing that happened in the pandemic. We knew we had to do something but we didn't know exactly what I would say that the government helped us out a lot with P. P. P. Process. At least we had a process that said okay the government is going to guarantee all these loans. What we now have to do is banks is to scramble around and figure out how to book them and how to fund them. And you know we did uh in a very short period of time we were able to ramp things up. I'm on the board of directors of a Of a community bank, of a member of the...

Wintrust family of banks. And we ramped up really fast. We had over 250 people on this thing and we knew that this was a great opportunity. So bankers got to do what they really could do which is to be innovative, put things together that were much more client focused. And I think the other thing is it forced even the smallest banks to look at. I'm sure you saw this in your business. It even forced the smallest banks to think digitally because customers couldn't come into the bank. We couldn't come into the bank. So how are you going to do banking without doing it electronically? And I think firms like yours, other third party vendors, fin techs etcetera have really forced our hand in a lot of ways. And I think it's really good. I think the real challenge with this James robert is that a lot of bankers I believe want to go back now to the good old days, well the pandemic is over but the fact is it's not the customer got a whiff of technology, They know how to use digital banking now more than ever before, the branches will still be relatively viable. But the customer now is in control. And when you asked about 1973 I think that is the biggest difference, bankers were in control of 73 in 2021 and going forward. The customers has all the control. Digital growth is a journey from good to great. But sometimes this journey can feel confusing, frustrating and overwhelming. The good news is you don't have to take this journey alone because now you can join a community of growth minded marketing and sales leaders from financial brands and fin techs who are all learning, collaborating and growing together visit digital growth. Com slash insider to learn more about how you can join the digital growth insider community to maximize your future digital growth potential. Now back to the show. Yeah. And and and that's because of these little devices that we carry around in our pocket, we can get access to any information that we need in a personal aside on this, it's one of the reasons that I have uninstalled uh safari from my iphone, I've uninstalled email, I've uninstalled social media. So in essence I have a dumb smartphone because I found for me personally it was just too much and so it was you know creating addictive behaviors personal side on that, but it's where you do like as I love, I love to learn. And so if I wanted to find something out, what do I do? I google it. But when that takes away from the relationship that I have with my wife and my kids are those that I'm around, we gotta, we gotta transport, we have to to master technology so that technology does not master us. And I think that's you mentioned something to start entrepreneurial innovation. The pandemic has been a forcing function and I always like to play games when I'm when I'm coaching a financial brand, Let's assume X happens over here. Let's...

...say assume you lose this capability. What would you do to pivot and work around that? And that's what we've seen here with with the last 18 months and and I think to you're on to something where the consumers in control and if the consumers in control, the idea that very word cells maybe that's going through a transformational experience. Because one of the things that you talk and write a lot about is building a performance culture, not a cell's culture but a performance culture. What's the difference between a performance culture and a cell's culture? Yeah, that's a great question and and it's it's a it's not a spin, it is a subtlety I believe and when when Bob ST. Myron are started the business in uh in 2001 of the things that we said was we're going to take several words out of our dictionary, retirement is the first word we took out of our dictionary. The second word is phrases cross selling. We never believed in it. I think it makes the customer of victim and we like cross solving. Um we don't like sales cultures for the same exact reason. And there have been some organizations that have proven the customer is a victim and that sully's everybody's name. So the difference between a sales culture and a performance culture is are are subtle but it's important. Banks have spent billions of dollars on sales training events. They buy motivational speakers, they buy things in a box, they look at a video and think they're trained. Uh and they're not, we believe that a sales culture is is rests on a learning organization. Those organizations that decide that they want to make sure that their people have the tools and resources forever to make change on behalf of the bank and the customer and part of that is in a, in a sales culture for example, the the Ceo is involved many times and the Ceo's involvement is, I'll sign the check. I always tell the story at graduate school of banking. The difference between involvement and commitment. You know it if you had great bacon and eggs for breakfast this morning, the chicken was involved, the pig was committed and we need commitment and so in a performance culture? Everybody from the top down. Not only goes through the training, but has the accountability at the end, at the back end. And that's another difference of a performance culture and assailants culture. We do a lot of sales training. We spend a lot of money. There are a lot of great companies out there that do that in a performance culture, everything after the training has the meaning. It's all about the coaching, the counseling and mentoring, the reinforcement of sales leaders. And I think the last thing I'll mention about performance culture versus sales culture is the term flexible consistency. We've got a lot of organizations and you work with them to that have pretty extensive footprints. Some of those branches are growth oriented branches where they...

...don't have much market share. We need to have someone in there that's a real sales oriented person. Then we have a balanced market where we have some good markets here, but it's still growing. We need somebody in there that can sell and serve. And then we have retention markets where we don't want to lose any customers. We want to provide great service. That's the flexibility. But the consistency is, this is our culture. This is our first national way of doing business. You're going to run a meeting in a retention branch. It's going to have the same backbeat as a growth branch. Your subject matter is just a little bit different. Here's one final thing James robert in a sales culture. We do, we count tick marks, how many meetings did you do? How many calls did you make? None of that is really important. What I care about is when you do a call, how good is it when you do a team meeting, does somebody leave with more than they had when they came into that meeting? When you have those kind of things working on? You have a performance culture because here's a fact you're, nobody wants to be sold to your customers. Don't get up in the morning and say, geez, I hope somebody sells me something today but they do want performance, we want performance as a bank and as an individual you and I want to perform every single day. That's a difference. That's a great point and I want to come back to something that you shared because it's, it's key. Yeah. A performance culture I would say is, is even rooted deeper in a culture of continuous learning, continuous education, continuous optimization. And one of the things that we teach are the four growth environments. You can be learning, you could be thinking, you could be doing, you can be reviewing where people get stuck is in the doing of anything. It doesn't matter if it's in digital or technology doesn't matter if it's in cells and so it's important to create space and time to review what you've done learned through the experience, gained some new insights. Think about those insights and how they can apply to your next iteration of doing so you're always learning, you're always being even better than what you were before. And I think that's where I'm interested to to guide this conversation with you because one of the things that that you've done as you have training, you've optimized your training even for a digital world. And one of the elements of of subject matter is remote relationship development. And when people either a cannot as we saw with the pandemic come into a physical branch to build a relationship or be now probably going forward will choose not now they have the option and everything comes down to choice. But I think when when we lose that, that that that that power that control people as you mentioned before are empowered. How might financial brands build relationships with prospects, build relationships with customers in a remote digital world?...

Well, first I think it's the realization that we are in a hybrid selling economy forever. Uh you know, people talk about the next normal, I like to talk about it in terms of the forever normal and I think unfortunately and this goes back to our conversation about banking, I think too often what happens is bankers get lulled to sleep like okay, this, this too shall pass things will get better. The fact is that there are going to be more variance the kids are going to come home sick from school, there is going to be a winter storm in boston and we have to get our bankers to realize that when they're home they still can be productive and to your point of doing, I like to call it execution, they can be executioners when they are at home in doing remote kinds of things. So so hybrid selling is here to stay. Unfortunately, what a lot of bankers haven't thought about, we did a study, we found that 70% of bank executives said that they had not provide the tools training or resources to bankers to be successful in a hybrid environment. So we still are in this mindset of well this is going away, we're all back to the office, but here's a fact, If you look at any study, 70, 80, 90% of people are going to work from home at least one, if not two or three days a week, those are potential buyers. The banker is not going to be able to go to their home, likely to make these calls. So what we have to do is we have to realize that hybrid selling is a going forward situation and I kind of think there's four areas that are really critical in this One is the technology skills, you have mastered the technology, you are a master of technology at age 71, I know enough to get run a zoom meeting really, really effectively. Um, and I know enough about the technology and I know enough about the technology related to a conversation around lighting, um, audio cameras, positioning things like that. I know enough to be able to do that. We need to help our bankers with that. The second thing is the conversation itself, we can have incredibly effective conversations as we're doing today on a virtual meeting. So we need to teach bankers. How do I ask really good questions without constantly looking down at my paper. How do I take notes without doing that? The third thing is when a partner joins, what happens if your wife would join us on the call or one of your colleagues or my daughter in law or my son? Well if this was a sales conversation now it gets much more complex. There needs to be additional rehearsal and we need to understand, well who's going to take it from here, Who's going to show the leave behind, who's going to use the whiteboard et cetera. And the last thing and we talked about this and I'll be brief, but it's all about sales leadership. It's understanding how to lead people in a remote environment, how to keep them engaged, how to coach them. I was, we have a very, very large...

...client And I was running a zoom meeting with them uh late in 2020 and I said to them, so Treasury management, 100 people, sales people, how likely is it that you record your meetings on a call so that you can coach to them. The head of Treasury management didn't even know that you could record meetings on zoom. So we need to help leaders get better at coaching and using the tools of their trade so that when a hybrid environment happens and it's going to happen forever that our bankers are effective at that, wow. You know, we could, we could literally could probably just do an entire conversation around those four points and go super, super deep. I want to roll back on on one the idea of technology and even coaching. Um chorus ai chorus dot Ai. Are you familiar with Chorus dot ai? Not heard of them? Know the chorus dot ai Ai literally takes a conversation, transcribes it in real time. So now the conversation that you and I are having now we have this documented what does that do that We can then pull out key points, throw that into a Crm that then increases Crm adoption. Because one of the things that we're finding is why does Crm, why has it been a horrible experience? Well, we use Kobe as as a, as a measure of a person's natural operating system and it looks at the cognitive part of the brain? Not, not the emotional side, not the intellectual side. And so it looks at four areas fact finding, follow through quick start and implementer. And what we're tending to find is those who are in cells have a higher natural initiating quick start and a lower follow through. So now you're saying I want you to follow through and put in all this information into the crm. Well that's outside of my natural operating strength. I can do it but it's gonna make me tired and grumpy. Now that's where the technology can be the bridge to get the information, the conversation that we're having and move that into the crm so that we can then take that and actually take some action. So a little bit of an aside of like even just technology here in real time and what some of the opportunities are to take things and make them even better going forward. You mentioned, let me, let me let me jump in and give you a customer spin on that. So let's say that you had, I believe you said chorus dot Ai or I O. Or whatever. Uh if they were to transcribe this, we were transcribe this call and you were a potential customer. What I could do is a banker then is I could take those notes, copy a few of them make the salient points back to you as the customer, we call it a conversation recap then here's what I can do since I have copied you the customer because that's your information and you should see it and probably no other bankers sending a follow up that way. I can also copy that information, paste it into the crm and now I have my call...

...report all done. I've done double duty in halftime. Well here we go. We're actually creating solutions on the fly together, which is why I love doing these conversations because it really, I mean this is, this, to me is the future of banking. It's collaborative. It's bringing the best of all these different thoughts, all these different areas of functionality and expertise and unifying. Because I think when you think about marketing and sells historically they've kind of been odds with each other. I don't think that can be the case anymore. Marketing and sales must work hand in hand together because there's there's a little bit of overlap. Marketing creates the awareness, it controls the positioning in the marketplace and it generates some leads specifically digitally who's gonna pick those leads up. It's got to be the cells team, that's where their expertise is. You mentioned something here about, you know, working remotely building relationships remotely. Let's get the low down on linked in. Um it's a, it's a growth area, it's a growth opportunity, it's a little bit of marketing, it's a little bit of cells, it's kind of like that hybrid approach of growth. You've, you've spent a lot of time in linkedin. I mean you even have your Jack rants which I highly recommend. People subscribe and and and listen to to continue to learn from you. But what's, what's the low down on linkedin here for cells people. Well, there are some, there are, there are a lot of myths around Lincoln James robert, especially in banking. Um bank presidents will say, well if my people are gonna be on linkedin, um the recruiters are going to find him and they'll quit. Well they're going to quit anyway if that's the culture that you've put into environment. Uh it's facebook for business. So I'll put my picture of my dog out there. There's a lot of miss, here's a here's a real tragic fact. The average bankers on linked in 17 minutes a month. The average high performing salesperson is on two hours a day. I live on linked in uh not to sell but to provide value. So we as an industry need to do a much better job of helping bankers understand how do you linked in as a value education and connection tool because you can indeed build partnerships on linked in. I'll give you one example of how of how we've taught bankers how to do this during the pandemic. If you, if you take out your phone and you have your linkedin app on your phone, what you can do is actually send a video message out to anyone that's a first degree connection with you. So during the pandemic, the first thing I wanted our people to do is to talk to all of our clients via linkedin. Um and we wanted them to send out messages. You can, it's between six seconds and a minute, it's not about pushing product, it's not about talking about the bank, it's how you doing, hope you're doing fine, want to let you know we're all okay here, if there's anything we can do to help let me know cleaning content, I'm huge on posting content, I do at least once a day,...

...maybe twice a day. I'm in linkedin groups et cetera. The little subtleties around linkedin can really help a banker make a huge difference and I still think of all the industries that I know we are the most far behind on this process and when you talk about prospecting um Lincoln has an amazing tool called sales navigator, which in my mind is the greatest prospecting tool ever created by humans. There is no reason to ever buy a list again. You can go live with your linkedin and you can do a search and you can narrow it down to a block by industry and you can say I want to talk to those people and their living humans who actually work at that business, those are the kind of things and I love what you said about sales and marketing, working together, it's a smart getting approach marketing needs to help bankers with their linkedin profiles and leads and things like that, bankers need to take control, they need to execute on their own Carrie Anne Benton Simpson and you and I were talking about this before we hit record there's an interview that I have from you from 2014 at the financial brand form in Las Vegas Carryin was also a part of this conversation as well and she is now as she's the chief marketing officer at J. M. M. B. Group, she's been on the podcast before and one of the things that she's doing is she is working to as a marketer as a CMO to empower her bankers to build personal brands. Because I see this honestly this is the future of marketing over the next 235 years, particularly as like data privacy, you know, continues to be a hot topic um like we're seeing the changes with third party cookies, we're seeing the changes with the inbox and the IOS 15 update if if market has become blind then what's the best marketing channel in the world? It's it's people and I mean even even just recently had a conversation with Natalie Bartholomew, all the girl, the girl banker um and and and her quote was this people bank with people not with banks as a banker, there's an immense amount of opportunity there to establish yourself as a trusted individual in this space. You're echoing her, She's echoing you, let me ask what's the roadblock, what's holding bankers back from really moving forward and capturing some of this opportunity here. Yeah, I think I think uh and by the way when you mentioned Natalie, she just joined Gil Castillo down at the bank in Oklahoma. And I think one of the things that bankers that I see when I teach at banking schools is little community banks like that and they're not little there 34, 500 million. Um think they constantly have pity parties for themselves. And it's unfortunate because like, the linked in to answer your question. I think community bankers biggest problem is between their ears. It's their...

...belief, their belief system that linked in is a recruiting tool. It's not their belief is that if I'm on linked in, I'm going to be viewed as sales. E that if I connect with a bunch of people on linked in uh and I connect with my competitors, they're going to know who my customers are. Those are all myths of linked in just like we're too small to be able to do this. You've got clients that you've worked with that are very small community banks and so do we. It's all about attitude. It's all about what's in between your ears. That's a great point because I I see that it's the smaller institutions that have a competitive advantage in a model like this versus the larger because the larger you get, the more complexity, we had a A bank in our program, 23,000 people out of South Africa. And we are talking about this very subject, I said, just imagine you have 23,000 people. If they were to go and post individually on social media doesn't matter the channel, I don't care. And let's just hypothetically say you get a reach, average reach of 100 people on that is probably the more but to make the math, that's 230,000 impressions and then you can multiply that and that technology is that it's the multiplier. Technology will multiply the good but technology will also multiply the not so good and there's that cultural aspect which is the conversations that we have with ourselves up here and overcoming the fear of the unknown, the fear of change, even some of the fear of failures on the flip side looking ahead towards the future. And this has been a great conversation today Jack, I appreciate everything. What are you most excited about? What are you most hopeful about as you look ahead towards the future? Uh when it comes to cells in a hybrid world, as you've mentioned before, my biggest excitement is when I see young bankers who are willing to take on the mantle of our industry and take it to the next level and one of those next levels is what we call resource management. The fact that a younger banker will take on the tools and use the tools like you mentioned the crm vertical, like providing value and one of the things that we're talking about is this idea of resource management. How do I become a go to banker, how do I become a resource and the younger people that I'm teaching and training really buy into that because that's the kind of world they want to live in as a customer and when that kind of thing happens, the banking industry thrives. I always say if you do a great job for your customers, you'll never have to worry about the competition, you will be the competition. And I'm seeing a lot of younger bankers adopt that mindset, you know, I I mentioned Natalie before, I think about paul long...

...as well, who's been on the podcast, I think about Greg martin and they are, they are positioning themselves as I see banking is such a noble industry. I mean we really truly have the opportunity to transform lives, you transform a person's wallet, you transport form their physical well being, their mental well being, because a person's mental health, physical health, financial health, they're all interconnected. The research is starting to come out and actually prove that I think is something that we all knew all along. But now to be able to quantify that is really important as we move forward together in this industry. Speaking about moving forward, I want to get really practical here at the end. What's one small step that someone who is listening can take to continue to move forward along just their own journey of growth when it comes to cells in a hybrid world, maybe they're not in cells, maybe they're in marketing or leadership that they can pass this along. What's the one small step because all all change all transformation begins with a small simple step. What would that be? What's that recommendation? Remember this phrase? The buyer has the answers, the seller has the questions to differentiate yourself in good times, bad times. All the times, if you can ask better questions and be interested more interested than your competition, you're always going to win and to do that. You need to be an avid reader, you need to be a learner. Look at books by Anthony and Arino Jeb blunt Mark Hunter, those kinds of authors who are talking about relationship based selling and asking great questions because when you uncover opportunities you're always going to have business no matter how bad the economy is, I'll throw out another one on that front, Marcus Sheraton, they ask you answer, he's been a guest on the podcast. If you ever have you read that one, just put that one on your list. He writes to a general broad audience but it's so practical, so applicable to what's going on here in banking and he's coming back on the podcast and he has another book that I think you might find helpful to called The Visual Cell Which is all this point about technology and getting comfortable feeling uncomfortable because when it comes to the podcast and all the video work that I do, people like you make it look so easy. I've got about 15, 16 years of doing this. I'll be honest. There there there are some tapes literally physical tapes, high eight tapes that are floating around to where it wasn't so easy and it was multiple takes and it was a lot of frustration and a couple of shots of scotch before, before some of these takes. So if, if anything, it just takes practice and give yourself some patients, give yourself some grace with this too. Right, Absolutely right. It takes time practice practice practice. So you know, someone's listening, they want to continue the conversation with you. They want to continue to learn from you. Um you've got a lot of great...

...educational resources. What's the best way for them to connect and say hello Jack. Oh my gosh, well thank you for asking that first. The first thing is connected with me on linkedin and message me. Um I have a lot of connections. I have a lot of followers and I and I really love the tool. Um J Hubbard at S M A N D H dot com is the email and I'm at my desk 847717 4328. Always happy to talk banking and always happy to be a resource for anybody. And jack rants to what's what's what's what, where can people find that? Yeah, we have a private linkedin group called the hashtag rant pack where I write things every week about sales. We also have a linked in live program that you're going to be on coming up called Jack rants lives. So just message me and I'll get you into all those, there's never a charge for any of that stuff awesome. Learn from Jack, connect, connect with Jack, I mean I'm excited with you. You know, the future is very, very bright. So thank you Jack for joining me up for another episode of Banking on digital Growth. This has been a lot of fun today. Thank you. James robert is a real privilege. Thank you as always. And until next time be well. Do good and make your bed. Thank you for listening to another episode of banking on digital growth. With James robert, ley to get even more practical and proven insights along with coaching and guidance, visit digital growth dot com slash insider to join a community of growth minded marketing and sales leaders from financial brands and fin techs. Until next time be well and do good. Mhm. Mhm.

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