Banking on Digital Growth
Banking on Digital Growth

Episode · 10 months ago

120) #DigitalGrowthJourneys: Digital Growth - A Travelogue

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Just like climbing a mountain, taking the first steps on your digital growth journey are often the hardest — you look ahead and all you see is how far you have to go. 

But eventually, you’ll look back and be amazed by how far you’ve come. 

Just ask Deborah Lumpkin , Senior Partner at Centier Bank , where each department has embarked on a digital growth journey together — which has fostered more collaboration and has everyone speaking a common language.

In this episode, we discuss:

Why content is the key to digital growth success

How to structure your teams for digital growth

How to align your teams and have them marching in tandem on a shared digital growth journey

You can find this interview and many more by subscribing to Banking on Digital Growth on Apple Podcasts , on Spotify , or here .

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for Banking on Digital Growth in your favorite podcast player.

...content is what is always, I know inspired us because it shares a narrative, It shares a story, we're just having stories with our clients. Mhm mm You're listening to banking on digital growth with James Robert lay a podcast that empowers financial brand marketing, sales and leadership teams to maximize their digital growth potential by generating 10 times more loans and deposits. Today's episode is part of the digital growth journeys series where James robert uncovers and explores some of the industry's biggest digital marketing and sales stories of success. Let's get into the show greetings and hello I am James robert ley and welcome to the 120th episode of the Banking on digital growth podcast. Today's episode is part of the digital growth journey series and I'm excited to welcome Deborah lumpkin to the show. Deborah is a senior partner at Centier Bank, a community bank founded in 1895 that has grown to become Indiana's largest private family owned and operated bank With 5.8 billion in assets and more than 900 employees at 60 branches across the state. Deborah and her team at sentir are on a journey to maximize their future digital growth potential. What they focus on humanizing digital experiences through their servant heart culture of caring. It is a truly inspiring story that will touch on today to continue to educate, empower and inspire you. The dear listener welcome to the show. Deborah, thank you for having me. You know, I always like to start off on a positive conversation? A positive note. What has been going well for you? What is good? What are you excited? What do you energized about right now, personally, professionally it's your pick. Oh, you know, I was like personally and professionally, so I'll give you both personally um met with my team last week for their mid year check ins and so many times we think about what we should do, what we need to do, haven't done in terms of the rest of the year and going into 2022 I like we all like to reflect back and really look at the initiatives that we've done, how are we tracking to our business plan, our sales goals and they have accomplished so much. We forget so many times as leaders to really do a look back and celebrate those successes and just talk with your teams. It is important to look back to see where you've come from because as we were talking about before we hit record this idea of hiking of mountain climbing, if we're always looking ahead looking up the mountain, it can feel like an impossible climb, but if we get up and we hit a point on our climb, that midway point, let's say now you can look down the mountains, wow, we've really, we've really come from somewhere and it's that looking back that creates a momentum to continue for, to build confidence because otherwise you're looking up and you see the clouds, you don't even see the top of the mountain, like can we do this and by looking down looking behind it, it proves that point that progress is really greater than perfection. Yes, yes, it really is. And we were talking about hiking and everything before we recorded and that is true. There's always that next peak, there's always that next mountain and you know, just making sure that everyone is doing it together and they know what mountain we're climbing and they'll also be too, I think it's important to call out, there will always be some valleys. Death Golden wrote a fantastic book on the subject, very easy read called the dip and it's when as we go through life, it's what we do in the dip that matters...

...most because either we will push through the dip and come up on the other side or we will exit the dip and then go find something else and I think it's exiting is not a bad thing per se because sometimes we push through, we put all our might and all our momentum into it and then realize why did we do that? What was the point? So, and you mentioned, you mentioned personally you've got some really good things going on as well. Yeah. Over the weekend, I wrote 55 miles with my father And what's interesting about that is he's 80 and uh, this 55 mile cycle ride filled in comparison to his coast to coast journey that he did when he was older than I am. And so he's always been a marathon runner and really an inspiration to me. And so I have a lot of inspiration between my team and then personally with my father over the weekend, you know, inspiration I think is something that it's a big reason that I enjoy doing this podcast and more so even having conversations about those that have been on a digital growth journey because we get emails and phone calls from other, they might be on a marketing team, they might be, they might even be on a leadership team, but they feel like they're that that lone voice who sees something out there and we're going to talk about the journey that you've been on here. But before we get into that, I'm curious to know how we came to this point, Why banking, why marketing for that matter? And you mentioned your father being an inspiration. But what is this idea of bank marketing that inspires you, your personal purpose? What gets you up in the morning every day to do what you're doing at sentir? Yeah, that's a, that's a great question. And I think for a lot of leaders, it's our team and the gifts and the talents that we have that we bring to our team and to one another. What's interesting is uh as I think about it five years ago it was right before I joined, sent here. And uh I gave myself five words that I wanted to lead by over the next five years. Just five simple words and what I didn't realize about these five words that they were somewhat of my personal purpose statement and the words were create connect cherish love and inspire and I've used these words to guide me both personally and professionally, especially as a mentor that sentir and uh in my personal life as well I think that's so important and it's a very practical takeaway for the dear listener. What are five words that personally guide your own path? Take some time to reflect on what these words could be, write them down, put them on your mirror so that you see them every day when you wake up and have to confront yourself and and look at yourself in the I put them in your office so that their guides. So when things do when you do get into that dip you can come back and refer to these words that in this particular case they they're bigger than just yourself and they're away too. Help others see as well why it is you do what you do as a leader. And on that point I want to redo some reflection. Let's go back into your mind. You mentioned five years, let's just take it the horizon maybe three years at this point when you think about marketing when you think about cells even because it's at this point in my mind it's hard to disconnect the two, but it hasn't always been that way, particularly in the banking space. What did marketing and cells look like for you? Going back say three years? That's a great...

...question. In my role at sentir, I handle both retail sales as well as marketing teams and property management. All and very, very important brand touchpoints. And so just looking back three years, we already have the alignment with retail sales and marketing just by the nature of how are my Trogir ceo structured the department and my team. But three years ago we've really evolved quite a bit as a marketing team. Now we are more, I guess that have been agency type of structure where we have lines of business support or account executives that work with each of our line of business partners. And then we have built a team around content, video, digital optimization and then really supported the team with continuing education and certifications, particularly on the digital front. So we really have a nice mix of people that have been here a while and a lot of onboarding over the last three years within our team. I think this is it's an important point because it's one that I have conversations with other marketing team specifically at financial brands. You mentioned building it out more like an agency and I talk about the in house agency, the in house media team even more. So now what did that transformation look like, you know, to bring that to fruition because it hasn't always been that way and you've been, you've got a lot of history just in the banking vertical. But what was that transition like to bring in all of this different talent, this different capability. You know, I'm going to lean on dan Sullivan here a little bit to bring in the who's so that we don't necessarily have to worry about the house anymore. We bring the capability internally. Yeah, there's really no right or wrong way with structure. You really need to look at your team where the talent is and the other financial institutions that I've worked for. We had hired out by agency work and I've also been in organizations that we have a whole creative team and in house agency creative team. So when I joined the bank, we had all the players, but there was just an alignment. And so we have two officers that handle mortgage, retail wealth management and then we do a lot of things internally within the bank with events and culture and everything that we have here and the marketing team supports them as well. So they are our clients to and so that's just how we've um, I'm familiar with it and of course we built it out particularly around a lot more content than we had in the past as well. Yes, content and I think that's where you have a unique ability and a unique skill set that you personally have brought into this dialogue into this conversation. We've had multiple conversations on the podcast around content. Content being the fuel of the digital growth engine. We've had Pulitzer E I know you're reading content inc second edition, we've had a lot of other good discussions, what excites you most about this idea of of content as a primary communication tool, both internally as well as externally out of financial brand, because content once again hasn't always been the case in the banking space. No, it really hasn't. You know, my background is in journalism and the Marketing Director also has a background in journalism and content is what is always I know inspired us because it shares a narrative, it shares a story, we're just having stories with our clients and so that's what I'm really excited is about building out more content to make our bankers celebrities, they are celebrities in our eyes of really creating all of these different channels for them to have that voice.

And of course we're far from that right now, but we're doing small winds and small things to make that happen along the way. And a lot of it is the team that we've created within the marketing department, but also that in our community relations group, they're doing some great things in the communities that we have and obviously with the social content is very robust here as well and and reviews and everything else that we track too. You talk about giving bankers a voice and I think that is a great way to align marketing and cells together. That has almost nothing to do with necessarily lead generation, but more of, we'll just call it positioning within a marketplace because now you're positioning around expertise around thought leadership around knowledge and that would then translate into increased leads and lead gin and lead, nurturing that marketing and cells can then work further on. You touched on this before about culture and I'm curious to know when you think about just your digital growth of journey that you've taken, what role has culture played to impact the progress here? Once again, progress being greater than perfection and and how has buy in an alignment been a part of this process as a whole for you? Yeah, that's a great question. The culture here at sentir is unlike anything that I've experienced with other financial institutions I've been with, you know, we're 100 and 25 126 years in the making and culture was always at the heart and the core of what we did and really is who we are. We lead by a servant heart leadership, a servant heart, culture and it is at every touch point in the organization. We have officer calls every Tuesday. In fact we had one this morning every Tuesday and we're celebrating all of our successes, sharing personal stories, but also what's coming up over the next week and our senior leaders along with our ceo who kicks it off every Tuesday at 80 clock central time shares what is going on, you know in the coming months things that he wants to share with the group and then he tosses the mic to each one of us to share up our updates is where as well. And that has created this culture that we have here one of many, many ways that we've done that and I can't help but think of the the late Tony shea who was the founder and what was it the founder buddy came into to help grow Zappos. They were struggling and it was culture that transformed a struggling e commerce shoe retailer to become a billion dollar acquisition from amazon and there's a fantastic book that I recommend to the Dear Leader's is it's delivering happiness. Maybe you've read it, maybe you have it and if you've read it I'm willing to bet it's probably been some time go pull it off the bookshelf dust it off because to me it's going to be culture as key to future digital growth because as I wrote about previously D. X. Plus Hx equals growth. That digital experience plus the human experience. But coming out of the covid experience I realized how important e ex employee experience is going to play in all of this because internal teams feel a little confused. They feel a little frustrated with everything that has transpired and rightfully so I don't think it's gonna get any easier per se. I think this is a preview of what's to come at a both a macro level that didn't translate down into a micro level. How do you as a leader handle and manage all of the changes that we've experienced exponentially. Um when you think about marketing and you think about just digital, what have you done personally...

...just to make sure that you aren't getting pulled under the sea of chaos if you will. That's a great question. I really think it's what we were talking about before within our culture and feedback from our associates Associates first and particularly during Covid we did a lot of that and then we also listen to our clients and then sharing this information so we can respond quickly and so many times for us as leaders were making decisions and leading our teams and were the farthest people away from the client and last year what we did is we moved our customer surveying to another provider and that has given us so much feedback from our clients and such good ideas and really the ability to prioritize the things when we started to see trends in it. And I can tell you our Ceo read every single comment because I know my team is responsible for every single follow up and so there's a tremendous amount of accountability that comes with it and that is also a glimpse of the culture when you have a Ceo involved in something like that, really listening to the voice of the client first. I want to give another perspective to the dear listener. This is something that Marcus Sheraton who's been a guest for the podcast and he's gonna come back on to talk about his new book called the Visual sell. Hopefully very soon we're trying to get that coordinate and schedule. But he posted something on linked in yesterday actually and he said food for thought. I was chatting with the Ceo of a large public facing company recently and he said something that made me really think and I'm quoting Marcus here including the Ceo of what he shared, he said, I have it set up that every emphasize social media notification we received comes to me the Ceo if it's good, I want to see it first. If it's bad, I want to see it first. The bottom line in this era of social media, I cannot allow myself or my team to be ignorant of what the marketplace is saying, we need to know. And then Marcus asked scalable, maybe not effective, stunningly so definitely and I think the voice of the customer is, we can be in tune with that in ways that we were never able to be, let's just say even five years ago, 10 years ago and it's when we put people the customer at the center of all of our thinking and doing, we see massive transformation but then when you couple that of putting the the team member at the center of all of our thinking and doing an alignment with the customer, wow that really is an opportunity for massive growth, massive transformative growth for that matter right there really, where the magic happens right when you can align all of that together in your team's. Yes, technology has transformed our world and digital has changed the way consumers shop for and buy financial services forever. Now consumers make purchase decisions long before they walk into a branch if they walk into a branch at all but your financial brand still wants to grow loans and deposits, we get it. Digital growth can feel confusing, frustrating and overwhelming for any financial brand, marketing and sales leader but it doesn't have to because James robert wrote the book that guides you every step of the way along your digital growth journey, visit www dot digital growth dot com to get a preview of his best selling book banking on digital growth or order a copy right now for you and your team from amazon inside you'll find a strategic marketing manifesto that was written to transform financial brands and it is packed full of practical and proven insights, You can start using today To confidently...

...generate 10 times more loans and deposits. Now back to the show, I'm curious to know, it's been about a year since you had reached out to me, you had read banking on digital growth, your team mike and red banking on digital growth. What inspired you to think about moving forward on this journey? You had already done a lot of really good work as we've shared up to this point. Getting the team optimized from a marketing standpoint, getting some alignment between marketing and cells. But what was that inspiration to to start down this journey of digital growth in the first place? We had already been a lot of the things that we're doing even today, we're already in flight. And what happened was, and I love telling the story is one of our board members gave banking on digital growth to mike and said read this, I think you're going to like it. Then. I distinctively remember mike using the word after he had read this book. He wanted to know if I had Rised no, not familiar with it and he said, I'm inspired. That is not a word that I've heard. Mike say often. And so we got our team together and how do we go about doing this? And I don't know how other F. I. S do it. But we involved 36 people. Mike is leading our ceo talks about mike driving the bus, right? He's at the front and it starts with mike and then all line of business Senior VP partners, the entire marketing department compliance risk and really everyone in the organization retail ops people all of the senior partners as well. And we're going through the curriculum and the courses and the work and then their favorite time is our monthly meetings where they go into the round tables and lead the discussion based on what they learned. And I can tell you from the feedback, this creates a very collaborative environment and we never had that forum before. And aside from banking on digital growth and D. G. I Institute, it really created that portal for people to get to know each other and collaborate and having everyone a part of this at the same time creates a common language that I believe really ignite and accelerates the digital growth process because it's not starting with one department and then they see the opportunities ahead of them that are revealed and then they get another department involved or another line of business involved, You're just wasting time, my opinion. Uh, you know the way that we have done it and rolled it out and of course we're, you know, eight months into it has really been inspiring to a lot of people. I think a couple of things just for context for the dear listener here, it's the acceleration that you've been able to achieve because Historically and we've had conversations about this just within our own coaching calls. I would say 80, 85% because there's that, that parade of principle that always comes into play 80, typically begin with say the marketing team And it could be 10, it could be 15, it could be 20, but then they have to go out and bring in others and I'm like we should have brought them in to begin well, we didn't have that buying, we didn't have that alignment out of the gate. And so I even I even told a story in the book about doing this with the marketing team and they got an 8-9 months in kind of where you're at now and at that point I'm like literally flying out to do a board session with their board and their executive team and they didn't have to start over, but it was definitely a bump in the road because there was well why are we doing this?...

And I think that's that, it's that Simon cynic right? Like start with why don't worry about the what? Don't worry about the how, because when you think about digital transformation, 60 to 85% of all transformation initiatives fail, not because of technology, but because of the human element, because we lead the conversation, this is what we're gonna do and this is how we're going to do it. Well, like I got my four kids in the back of my head saying why dad, like why? And it can be annoying like as a parent and a parent is a leader and sometimes you got to really catch yourself well, because I said so, but when you step outside and you take that deep breath in and you really want to explain, and I'm thinking about my kids here, okay, I want to say it's because I'm the parent and I'm just say so, but whenever I sit down, I get down on the knee and I look at them in the eye and explain, you see something happened, like you literally get their buy in at that moment, because there are now a part of that process of whatever it is, they're a part of that journey that we're taking together and that's a big transformation that I see has to happen at a macro level within the industry, because it's still, there's so much what we're doing this because that's what we have to do to survive. And I'm like, well, if you do that, because it's what you have to do to survive, you're probably not going to thrive all a part of the journey together. And as you know, our senior team, we are a group of quick starts and so we've had to learn a lot of patients along the way. Things just don't happen overnight and it is a process, this is a journey, but what we're uncovering along the way is really exciting and so it's just a part of the journey for all of us. Exactly. Exactly. And I'm curious, you know, reflecting on this eight months if the biggest win that you've experienced along the way, you've articulated a few of them already. But where do you feel like the biggest success if you will has come into play? Is it the sense of what we would call community being built? Is it connections? Is it collaborations? How would you articulate the biggest win from this experience so far? You know, we I talked earlier about common themes, the common language, language, so we're all saying the same things and you hear this common thread. So I think that's really important. The shifting of mindset I've had so many people say that they literally pause and meetings going, why have we done it this way? Like why? You know, and then the collaboration. And so to me, if there was one thing, it's probably the collaboration and I mean from my car ceo all the way, you know, within that senior group that's going through the university and identifying these opportunities along the way. And so now we're just at a point where we're doing some exciting things. One of the things that we're doing now is we are going to be launching in september Digital Banking Center that is completely dedicated to cultivating onboarding and identifying the online leads that we get from our online account opening process and we've made leaps and bounds, but now we have a dedicated team to make sure we don't have what I fondly called lead leak and that's just 11 of many things that we've done where you identify all the different channels and you start really looking into the online forms that are created on your website. Even our client surveys generate on our generate additional...

...seals leads for us. And so just taking each one of those prioritizing them and take them through the journey. Yes. And I can recall like when we first connected, that was one of the things that we did at a very high level exploratory Well let's just see, let's just see how this is going right now. And I said very kindly like this is not to get anyone in trouble. This was you just simply don't know what you don't know. And so let's explore this and we'll use your word the lead leaks if you will and figure out a way to start to bridge that gap. But that's not something that marketing can do on its own. You have to align yourself and you've got multiple teams that are involved in this initiative now, which to me, you start here because it's so easy to say, oh, we need to go to the top of the funnel, we need to drive more traffic and more awareness. But if we do that, we're just adding more complexity towards the boss. Absolutely. And it does involve everyone. It's marketing, its retail sales ops, it's the tech solutions team to make sure that the data that we're capturing and again we've got a ways to go. But part of it is awareness and collaboration, all of the things that we're doing right now, you think back over these eight months so far in a lot of training, a lot of education through the university, a lot of roundtable facilitated discussions. If you go back in your mind because you've you've had experience and you've got a lot of knowledge already be biggest key insight for you, our biggest and I think you mentioned this before, biggest mindset transformation as well. What has that been for you personally mindset? You know, something that I think surprised a lot of people are some feedback that we got. I'm just going to talk on behalf of the group is we kept on hearing things that digital is cold, digital is impersonal and we heard that early on from a lot of people because our culture was built on personal relationships and service and remarkable service. Service wasn't great. It had to be remarkable service. And one of the things that it was actually R. C. I. O. That identified and I thought it was great coming from him is how do we create digital smiles? It makes digital feel more human. And so when you start thinking of digital smiles, you can have a lot of fun with it and it is content. It's the way the visuals look, it's how we respond on the phone when you don't have someone in front of you. And one thing that Covid taught us is how to be nimble and how do you do that? And so we've created a lot of ways that and we're still developing different ways to create those digital smiles along the way. And so, and I just love that expression because it makes you smile, it makes you picture your favorite emoji. And so really it softened the idea of digital and that we can make it feel more human. I can't help but think to connect some dots to before Tony shea and Zappos and delivering happiness. And there's a video of him giving a presentation or a lecture and it was about this idea of service and they would do whatever it took at Zappos to make someone feel happy about their experience. And a lot of it was if you think about it, Zappos leading the way of selling a commoditized product shoes to win before, if you wanted to buy shoes, you'd go in person, try them on. So you can say that there free delivery both ways was a bit of a industry transformation. They kind of...

...started that like tom started the whole buy one, get one. But what what made Zappos, Zappos was the people, it was the conversations whether that was over the phone or a lot of times just through some type of chat messenger and it wasn't a robot, it wasn't a chat, but it was flesh and blood on the other side. And if they couldn't find what you're looking for, they took it upon themselves to go to another digital retailer sometimes. And I had this experience person like they ended up getting referred over to Nordstrom's for a shoe that we were looking for and bought through Nordstrom's. But where do we go to buy our shoes now for our kids? Exactly. Zappos And it's really about that client experience and its very core. And I've heard interviews with him as well. It wasn't necessarily about shoes, it was about service and that was his, his background. And if you think about that, how bold and a lot of the courage would take to tell your team to refer a client or customer to a quote unquote competitor to make that purchase. That's very different than what we hear a lot about today. But in my mind, I think competition, the idea of competition, it has to be put away because if you're competing, you're competing for what scarce resources. Therefore you're in a scarcity mindset to where if you're really taking a collaborative approach, there's an opportunity for mass abundance, the world's huge and I think if we look at all the opportunity available, we'll never going to have to be able to capture it all. Nor should we want to, I think, I think it's where we can identify some specific niche markets that align with our purpose that give us the ability to be the best for that niche market to create the best experience, to be the most knowledgeable to provide the most help and then as a result create the most in the greatest value to me. That's what the future of of banking looks like. What about you and your mind, if you could Project Out 5, 10 years, what's the future of banking look like for you in your own Mind? Gosh, that's so hard to predict, particularly a year to even five years. I think what we're doing today is really making sure that the culture that we have developed 126 years goes across all channels and all platforms to be remarkable and everything that we do and being in a family owned bank. You know, you see the dedication with the next generation taking it to the next level and I think that's a part of it. Technology is going to play a huge role and we have certainly invested in technology. We have had some very important key hires lately to really propel us align us around the client experience and I think that's the key is technology is not a replacement for the human experience. It's an upgrade. It's an augmentation And technology is just a tool. It's just a tool that connects people together like this podcast, the ability for for your voice, for your ideas, for your knowledge, for your experience to reach over 120 countries, it wouldn't be possible if it wasn't for technology and so therefore it's a multiplier, even value creation at scale. Deborah, this has been a...

...fantastic conversation, a fantastic discussion. I've enjoyed it as well as we wrap up. I want to get really, really practical here at the end, play a game of start and stop for the dear listener. If there's one thing as they continue to move forward and make progress along their own digital growth journey, what is one thing that you would recommend they start doing something small? Because I think all growth, all progress begins with a very small, simple step. But what's one thing that you could recommend that they could start doing going forward? I talked about this earlier because it was a ha moment and it goes back to lead leak, just identify all of the different channels. That's a starting point is awareness. It's so much more than that. But if there was one thing that I look forward to, the meetings that we have on friday every week because we're talking about these things and it is a ha moment and it completely creates awareness where particularly with the marketing investment, every lead is precious and we cannot lose sight of these leads and a lot of it's just alignment to process and making sure we're taking care of them, even if it's a personal phone call or a chat, that would be the one thing, Yes, absolutely. Starting there, it's always always great to start to identify, gain the awareness of what you're losing to begin in the first place. Because if we add more to the process to the plate, if you will, then it's just gonna be an exercise in complexity with which leads to frustration and then that leads to lack of buying. And then they're foregoes the repeated cycle of what we've seen. The predictable pattern time and time again. When we add something to the plate. When we start doing something, it's always important just stop doing something as well to create that space to create that time. What would be one thing that you would recommend the dear listener to stop doing that could actually help them make progress maybe help them break free from something that might be holding them back. That they might not be once again aware of standing still mm not moving because you don't know what to do. And I think a lot of F. I. S. Are there because they don't know what to do, where do I put my investment? There is so much information just like our clients, there's so much information that you can find is how to start small and build from there. And particularly there's struggles with data technology, there's huge investments to make. But Standing still is is not a strategy. No. And I think a lot of that is rooted in fear whether or not someone wants to admit it, the more that we can have the open, honest conversations about that as individuals, even as teams and then at the organization level, there's no harm, there's no harm in that. I think all, all growth, all transformation that leads to growth. It does begin by telling the truth and if that truth is, I'm really not sure what we should do next. That's okay. That's where training, that's where education begins that process for growth in making training education a key part of the experience going forward because the world will continue to change at a more rapid rate. If someone is listening, they've learned from you, but they also just want to connect with you to say hello, what is the best way for them to do. So Deborah, what's the best way for them to reach out to ways they can email me at D lumpkin, L U M P K I N at sentir dot com or always reach out to me on linkedin, make the connection there if they want to learn anything more about what I shared today or just to connect, you know, you're always making introductions of people and I'm always connecting with them on linkedin. I think that's a great source or any No,...

...absolutely. And I do, I do enjoy connecting people together because that is how we all will grow. We cannot do this and individually we can't do this alone, we can't do this even as a, as a financial brand, floating as an island out in the sea of chaos, We have to continue to connect, we have to continue to collaborate because a rising tide does in fact raise all ships together. Deborah, thank you so much for joining me on another episode and this has been a lot of fun as always be well, do good and make your bed. Thank you for listening to another episode of banking on digital growth with James robert. Ley, like what you hear, tell a friend about the podcast and leave us a review on apple podcasts, google podcasts or Spotify and subscribe while you're there to get even more practical improvement insights visit www dot digital growth dot com to grab a preview of James roberts, best selling book banking on digital growth or order a copy right now for you and your team from amazon inside you'll find a strategic marketing and sales blueprint framed around 12 key areas of focus That empower you to confidently generate 10 times more loans and deposits until next time, be well and do good.

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