Banking on Digital Growth
Banking on Digital Growth

Episode · 10 months ago

158) #ExponentialInsights: What Community Means in the Digital Era

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

The pandemic proved that even the most reluctant among us can find community online when we have to.

But are these digital communities here to stay?

And how does that affect your financial brand?

You’ve got questions and today, I’m speaking with the man with the answers, Ben Pankonin, CEO / Co-Founder at Social Assurance.

Join us as we discuss:

- How communities have expanded globally, while becoming more localized

- The value of uniqueness and not always being “on-brand”

- How constraints fuel creativity

You can find this interview and many more by subscribing to Banking on Digital Growth on Apple Podcasts , on Spotify , or here .

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for Banking on Digital Growth in your favorite podcast player.

...when communities working well you have this sort of serendipitous nature to it, where you feel like the person you just ran into solves the exact sort of problem or thing that you're thinking about, you're listening to banking on digital growth With James robert lay a podcast that empowers financial brand marketing sales and leadership teams to maximize their digital growth potential by generating 10 times more loans and deposits. Today's episode is part of the exponential insight series where James robert ley interviews the industry's top marketing sales and fintech leaders sharing practical wisdom to exponentially elevate you and your team. Let's get into the show greetings and hello, I am James robert, ley and welcome to the 158th episode of the Banking on digital growth podcast. Today's episode is part of the exponential insight series and I'm excited to welcome Ben pynchon into the show. Ben is the Ceo and co founder of Social Assurance where he is building stronger communities through the financial organizations that social assurance serves and they're doing this by helping financial brands to leave their mark. And to be remarkable, welcome to the show Bennett is so good to have you on today, it is great to be with you, you know, James robert, ley is just a name that rolls off your tongue and you have really done an incredible work in this space. Well, I thank you for the kind words and I got to give my mom all the credit for the two first names because it does, it does sometimes create confusion because people are like, is it James, is it James robert is James is robert the middle? I said no, it's it's two first names and I knew I was in trouble because it was always James robert, William was when I got in trouble because she would use the middle name at that point. So I appreciate the kind words before we get into talking around just where your mind is to begin the year. Um you know, you, you recently put out a marketing and a compliance report before we get into that. I'm curious to know, what are you excited about? What do you energize about right now? You know, you'd like to talk a lot about human connection on your podcast and I've seen it firsthand as, as we're returning to in person community, I'm seeing that over and over again that when, when communities working well you have this sort of serendipitous nature where you feel like the person you just ran into solves the exact sort of problem or thing that you're thinking about and I'm seeing that happen over and over again, just an impersonal conversation. It could be in the business community here locally. It could be, you know, reaching out to a conference that I had been to in a couple of years and it's just happening in those serendipitous moments. I think...

...that's the beauty and it's why I am so hopeful for all of us kind of as we're transitioning into what some are calling the the age of a I I'm actually reframing and calling it the age of abundance to where technology is just a tool to help us reach and achieve like our exponential potential Because the human mind one mind alone is good. But when you add one mind with another mind and another mind and we're all coming from different walks, different paths, We've had different experiences is when we bring all of that together in those serendipitous moments we create literally something new together. And I can't tell you how many times on this podcast, like I've walked away with new ideas From where one mind plus another mind will equal like you know it will equal 10 and so I'm I'm right there with you. You talk about community and let's just stay on that theme here for a little bit Community community banking, credit unions. It's been a big theme for probably the last 150 years here in the United States. How has the idea of community transformed because of digital? What does that mean today? What could that mean? Going forward over the next we'll just say 3-5 years. Well I think obviously you know we we've experienced those moments, even ours where you know where where we've met digitally and now you know we're having deeper conversations as a result of that. So I think some of that comes in you know with facebook sort of turned it as the interest graph or you know we've had a lot of those different explanations of of how we define community now that now that it can be virtually you know we can travel greater distances essentially. So I think I think there's that sort of sense. Um but I think there's also this sort of resurgence of local um you know we see it in in S. C. O. We see it in a lot of digital aspects where we see this resurgence of local. And so I think you're seeing this balance that that really as just humans, we're balancing in ourselves saying, you know I'm now reading more news that's that's national and international news, but at the same time the people that I converse with are very local and we're talking about very local, intimate issues in that sense. I I could think of for example um when when we did our holiday gifting to wrap up last year, the idea was I always like to give the gifts of knowledge and I also like to give just something local, you know send a little bit of Houston texas out into the world with a local business and it's a very special thing because I think it's almost like we're sharing a part of us and what we believe in and and what we're passionate about and we did this with a little a little bakery um who made these fantastic gingerbread cookies that my wife and I we walked into a restaurant one day and we had them for dessert? I'm like we need this...

...right here, this is what we're going to gift. Um during the holidays last year, I want to get your take on this because you're, you're hitting into something. There's been a resurgence of local, I'm a big believer and I'm gonna go out on a limb and say this and it's always fun to put this out into the world and then be able to come back in a few years and where we're on the right path or were completely off micro has the potential to beat the macro over the next few years because people are coming back in, I think, you know, we've got the amazons of the world and then we've got, you know, the local kind of seeing this resurgence, why is there a shift do you think of coming back into the locality, the local side of things? That's a great statement. So, so one of the phrases that gets used a lot of every keynote, you sort of hear this like, you know, think globally act locally and that that works great on an instagram post. But one of the other ways that I think to think about it is to think about the competitors that you have, right? So if, if I think of amazon as a competitor, I want to look for ways that they're trying to be me right, like in what ways does amazon want to be like my community bank and sometimes we have to flip that backwards to really understand it to understand really understand what our benefit is. As you know, as a local or even regional community bank to understand what are the big players doing to be similar to me. One of the ways that I think is really funny is as we start to think about human connection one, they're, they're starting to do more bricks and mortar stores right as amazon. So yeah, and I want to hit on that point real fast because it's so critical and I was just having this conversation the other day with a community banker. They were, they were, they were like how do we play into this digital world? How does the physical world, how does the community, I said it's going to be so important because if you watch what amazon did a couple of years ago with the acquisition of whole foods, that to me, they're going from the digital world into the physical world. And so I wanted, I wanted to hit that note real fast, continue. Yeah, absolutely. So that that's one of the key points that I think is really important. Another thing that amazon is doing is um, they struggle with sales right? You've never talked to somebody at amazon about your issue right? And so they do this in really subtle ways. So um you know, if you've heard me speak at any keynotes, I'll talk about trust in, in my talk. And one of the things that I like to talk about when we talk about products is your trust in a product or service or innovation will succeed or fail based on your relationship to it, right? So, so think about when you walked into a product that fails regularly and you just throw it out there, just like I...

...give up on this product and then you think of one that you've built, some sort of connection to, right? Maybe your friend sold you the product, maybe someone's helped you through that and you sort of have this trust curve that you follow as you sort of like bought the product, you were excited about it and then you sort of fall into this pit of, it doesn't work as well, but then that you kind of learned how it worked and you grew with it. Well, you think about that in the context of something like amazon Alexa, Like I actually believe that what what Alexa really did to teach us jokes to try to make human connections out of something that was not human uh was all built because it fails too often. And what they're trying to do is get you to build a relationship to it. So when it fails, it doesn't fail completely, it fails much more gracefully. That's a fantastic point. And it's it's something that I've never considered because it's like, ah, the way I look at trust is it's like deposits. You know, every experience, every interaction, every piece of content. It will either make a deposit or take a withdrawal out of a consumer's trust fund that sits between their ears. And so I think the more deposits that we can make, the more forgiving will be when an experience or an expectation doesn't live up to what we we're hoping for. That's a really good point, right there. Great observation. Yeah, yeah. And I think, I think you're right in the sense that it's it's deposits and withdrawals, but they're not all equal, some of them are significant deposits. Some of them are significant withdrawals, right? We could lose trust very quickly. We also have different things that accelerate that, right? When the digital and the in person match up, right? If you've ever had this experience where you've you've sort of built a relationship with someone digitally and then all of a sudden you meet them in person, you know, I met my friend Tim who's a community banker up in the twin cities area for the very first time just a couple of months ago, you know, stop and and, you know, I texted him to go out to dinner when I, when I dropped into town, you know, meet him. It literally, his first reaction is you're shorter than I thought you were going to be. And I said, yes, same, right, And got the same experience happened to me, I thought I'd be taller. Um but you know, as we meet, you know, all of a sudden you're like, hey, when that matched up, right, that trust had been built digitally, um in a, in a real relationship where we were, um we were involved in his, in his work and his business and what mattered to him. And then when it matched all of a sudden we have a lot more opportunity to build that trust together. That's a great point because that trust would not have been able to be established had it not been for some type of digital component digital interaction. And so you're...

...making these deposits at a great point. There are macro deposits and there are macro withdrawals and they're not all equal. You're you're touching on something else here that I think is really critical that, you know, the dear listener coming from a community bank, a credit union regional, maybe even a Fintech is the role that a a person's personal brand makes as part of their digital growth trajectory. How important is a personal brand? The, we'll call it maybe it's a branch manager, maybe it's a lender, maybe it's someone on the senior leadership team. Can you, can you provide some perspective around that here? Yeah, yeah. So you know, when, when, when we work on sales coaching or you know, we work with, you know, social selling types of tactics. One of the things that I love to talk about is that there's really two factors that make a new connection, uh, successful. So if you think about, as we're talking right, we had some comparisons in our kind of pre conversation where we talked about things that were familiar to both of us. We had sort of similar educational backgrounds, We can make a connection on that. Now. Most financial brands focus only on that part of it. We focus on the part that says, hey, this is actually just this, this thing. You and I have, um, educationally similar background, similar kind of passions. And then we stopped there. The thing that happens though is if you don't have the other part, which is that we also have to be unique, then it does, you won't remember it, you'll just say, oh yeah, I had that connection but it doesn't form that deep connection if there's nothing unique about it. So, you know, I go back to like a handful of years ago, I'm with a friend of mine were in a backyard barbecue and he's a good friend. We kind of sit down at the backyard barbecue table and somebody we didn't know sits down and she says, I'm working on my doctorate and I said, oh, that's interesting, what are you working on your doctorate? That's why you moved to town? And she says, I'm getting my doctorate in Medieval warfare and I sneak a glance over to my friend Ryan and I'm like buckle up, we're going to ask every question we like I can remember that conversation because I'm asking about Braveheart, I'm asking about all these sorts of things. You're speaking my language. I mean you just mentioned Braveheart, William Wallace and I'm like dude, I'm totally and I wish I could have been a fly on the wall and that one, I mean, but but you know when you sort of like have that connection right? Like um I don't know that I have, you know that much in common with her, but that's so unique and so specialized when we have individual salespeople who are out in our community, part of what makes that successful is they don't have to be 100% about the bank's brand. They can also talk about something that is weird and obscure and that also builds a...

...connection. We do that in person all the time. If you're good at sales, you do that. Um but we don't do it digitally sometimes because we're too afraid of it. Digital growth is a journey from good to great. But sometimes this journey can feel confusing, frustrating and overwhelming the good news is you don't have to take this journey alone because now you can join a community of growth minded marketing and sales leaders from financial brands and Fin techs who are all learning collaborating and growing together visit digital growth dot com slash insider to learn more about how you can join the digital growth insider community to maximize your future digital growth potential now back to the show, you know, why is that? Why are we afraid to make this deeper connection? And I want to go there with you if you don't mind in a moment? Because I got a I got a personal question for you on on this front here to really kind of make what we're talking about very real and very practical for the dear listener. But let's talk about the fear first, what holds us back from really leaning in two more of we'll call it, you can talk about, you know, the weather, you can talk about kind of what's going on in in in in the world or you can really start talking about the other person and be interested in them and what's interesting to them, what holds us back from from really go going deeper and pulling those layers back. Yeah. So so in person, a lot of times we're we're willing to share things about, you know what people are passionate about, right? We've been coached so many times that we need to avoid a lot of those issues online and now I'm not advocating that that we all use, you know, political sort of um you know, expressions online that doesn't have to be the case, although I would argue that if you did you could you could actually build a business based on one of those things, but you will, you will offend a large group as well. But more than that, it's also about what are the, the intricate and weird things, you can say that you're passionate about that nobody else is, you know, and then that builds really unique connections. So I'll give you a really weird and oddly personal example from a few months ago, I had a friend who's a great marketer in town, um his company just, you know, shoved out his department essentially. So he's out of a job. I find out I sent him a text right away, we have coffee the next day as I'm sitting down with him, I knew him fairly well, but not extremely well, and he said, you know, the thing that I'm passionate about in my side work is, you know, I run the nonprofit for Parkinson's research and I'm like, well that's a that's an oddly specific thing, but you know, obviously he's got family issues with it, you know, two weeks later, I find out my dad's diagnosed and now all of a sudden...

I have this connection with somebody because he's willing to express that, right? And he's expressing it online and now I have an incredible relationship with brian and everything that he does. Um but but that's the way it works when we actually express what we're truly passionate about and we do that digitally, we do that in person well, and I think digital gives us a an advantage there because we can do a little bit of research and for the dear listener make this very practical. You know, I have an exercise called 3 to 1 uh make three connections a day to new people. Um and what like you have to particularly linkedin, you need to like give a comment, don't still make a blind connection. And one of the ways I always connect with people is, you know, hey Ben, it's always great connecting with other people who are working to transform banking for good. Um and I would say it probably gets an 85% acceptance rate and then it kind of creates some type of dialogue. So that's, you know, three connections a day. Uh then you have you may leave to comments. So now you're engaging with other people's content um that they're posting and that creates some connections. And then one piece of we'll call it just perspective. So it's your own post. So 321. And even in today's conversation, just taking a look at you and you know, trying to understand you meet you before we actually had this conversation, I gotta ask man growing up in a hallmark store, you started a linkedin post with that and I'm like, what? Like, like you just don't see that every day you said growing up in a hallmark store, I realized that life isn't a Hallmark movie. So unpack the hallmark store because I've been wanting to ask you about this now for like the past week of how growing up and continue that story please. Yeah. Yeah. So you know, my, my dad grew up in the hallmark business, he was he was a sales rep for hallmark, worked for Hallmark corporate. And on my seventh birthday they decided let's buy a hallmark store uh in small town Nebraska. And so they ended up being, you know, kind of the one of the better performing stores in the area of the region. But um what they did was they bought the store on my 7th birthday. So my, one of my early memories of being in having an adult place was going to the law firm when they bought the store and I'm playing with, you know, toys in the background as they're sort of doing this. And but then it sort of thrust me into this environment in first grade where I started waiting on customers and you know, that sort of shapes the way that you have dialogue. So if you ever look at early childhood development, there's this sort of age range between six and 10, right? Where where you're defining who you are and when you start...

...understanding that, well, I wait on customers, I engage in business conversations at the dining room table. I was an only child. So you sort of have a lot of these adult conversations around business, you start to have this effect. That takes place where that's one of the ways that you relate really well, that's a that's a man, so powerful because then once again, now we see how different experiences impact, how we relate, because I love that story, it helps me to understand where you came from, what kind of shaped you and, and further, I'm gonna give you the the alternative of it when I read that, I think, oh Hallmark, like, I remember going there as a kid with my mom and like, don't touch, don't touch keep your hands in your pocket. Uh and it was and it was just a whole different experience, but now it's like with my kids, you know, I'm trying to be more mindful of, you know, we probably could maybe take a little bit of an easier path with this. So it's just interesting how all of these little connections, they all come together and they're they're part of a bigger story. They're part of a bigger narrative that I find just to be completely fastening. So it'd be interesting that anyone else is listening. Um you know what text me and text me 832549579 to text me your Hallmark story. Like I just, I'm curious to know what your hallmark story is and I always reply to everyone that text me 8325495792. Because I'm curious and Ben, I'll connect you in on some of this as well because it's just a, it's a unique path. I think here coming back to the path of today's conversation with community with this idea of personal brand. Social media does get played into the mix. Um, y'all have recently at social assurance released a marketing and compliance report because I think it's important as we're talking about the transformation of the perspective of community, the transformation and the perspective of the personal brand. How social media plays into this compliance is a key area that we need to be aware of and not get annoyed with, not be concerned about, not get frustrated with. But what were some of the key findings that came out of this report at a high level of like these are the, these are the three things that the dear listener needs to know coming out of social assurance, marketing and compliance report, what would those three things be? Yeah, no, I appreciate that. And I was afraid you'd say the compliance word. But um, you know, it's one of those areas in, in growth where um, you know, I get the chance to talk to a lot of high school students and when I do that, one of the things we'll talk about is creativity and we'll talk about what, what inspires creativity and, you know, if you ask somebody to do something that's, that's entirely too open ended all of a sudden. They can't, they can't find something that fits right. If you say, hey, think of...

...something creative, let's say I have got nothing right. I've got nothing. But if you say, hey, hey, think of something creative you can do, um, you know, to, uh, you know, engage a friend with a, you know, with a pen or, um, you know, sort of narrow those constraints, all of a sudden creativity starts to bubble up. And when you meet people who are really creative, they find a way to do it within constraints. And that's the way we see, you know, marketing and compliance working together, you know, for financial brands. Um, so when we were writing this report, one of the things we're looking for or how are the creative constraints happening. And so one of the big takeaways I would look at is, you know, when we look at what are the channels that financial brands are active in? Yeah, that's one of those areas. Um, one of the things we're seeing more and more of is expiring content, right? Things like instagram stories. Um, that's definitely a trend we're seeing frequently. Um, we're also seeing the format that's really been shaped through marketing in in two fold this year was it was incredibly interesting as we looked at a lot of google analytics over the last two years and said, one of the things we're seeing in trending is obviously when March 2020 hit a massive increase in traffic to websites, but we're also seeing a very poor effort understood that S. C. O. And compliance actually work really well together. So the way you think about how people find you and the way you find things on the website actually play really well together. That's something that I think it was, it was fun to sort of see how that data plays out to say. Um actually you should, your compliance team should be thinking about sc oh, it's a weird statement to say because we don't think about it that way, but the marketing benefit is people know what to find where to find it and it's easy to navigate to. Also we're having purpose driven pages that align with the actual product, your marketing, those are all things compliance is interested in marketing should be interested in that as well. I really like your perspective on the constraints because in my mind, I think of bumpers on a bowling alley like being a kid like we would go to birthday parties at the bowling alley and you know, they put the bumpers there. Well it's to make sure that, you know, you're not getting in the gutter and you're actually knocking a pin down a couple of pins or maybe if you're getting lucky as a kid getting a striker, getting a spare. And so I I think in the banking and probably almost in any industry for that matter that has been the and as challenging as Covid has been for so many different...

...people? And I don't want to gloss over this? I want to to really respect that. I think there has been some glimmers of hope, some glimmers of inspiration that have come out of this because it has been a forcing function of constraints. And so the creativity that has come out on the other side, if it's my hope that we as financial brands can at least on an annual basis, maybe do some type of constraint driven thinking so that we don't lose what we gained through this experience, whether that be constraint driven thinking on the marketing side, on the cells, on the service, on the whatever it might be, it's the constraints that allow for the creation of new product experiences. Innovation. So, yeah, I like your idea on this idea of constraints. What's your thought on that? Yeah. So, so one of the ways to think about constraints, especially in, you know, um in getting the community banking space right? When we think of a financial brand that says, we're a full service, right? All of a sudden, which you've immediately done is said we do everything right where we're competing now more and more with Finn texts that say, we do one thing, right? Oftentimes, right? And they're sort of focused all this energy on this one little space. And so one of the things that we want to think about again, as we were talking earlier, right? How are my competitors moving closer to be like me. Right, How are Fin techs trying to bring personality and sales into their model? How are they trying to involve other products? Um That's an interesting thing to look at. But also when we're trying to think creatively about how their marketing, you know, boiling it down and saying, what if we only serve this market? What if we only served small businesses between, you know, two employees and 50, what what would that look like? How would we change? And so when you narrow those constraints from a marketing perspective, it also helps you shape those personas, right? So when we're doing something, like, let's say, we're doing digital ads for for a financial brand. And we're saying what if we only did that? Um instead of thinking, hey, we're a full service bank, we do all of these things sometimes. That's an escape goat for not thinking creatively. If we narrow it and say we only do this thing now, all of a sudden we have to think really creatively about it. We have to innovate. That's a great point. I want to come back to the report here that you did. So we've got some key insights for the dear listener as we look ahead towards the future, what might be the biggest roadblock or the biggest danger that they should be aware of from the research that you did...

...hear something that could hold them back. Yeah, Yeah. So, so one of those is thinking only about channel. Um, so we have the conversation come up a lot of times that says, well, well what's the channel I should be in um, and channel is important. It is important that we're, where our customers are having conversations certainly. Um, you know, social media in particular is getting shaped by things like Tiktok and I would say stylistically it's getting shaped by that more than anything else. And most everyone who has a Tiktok account also has an instagram account. They also have a facebook account. But if you want to learn, you should be listening over here in a place like Tiktok where maybe maybe from a compliance standpoint, you're not yet comfortable being there. But from a, from a marketer's perspective, we should be watching how things are happening there. Uh, you know, I did an interview all the way back and I was just caught part of the clip back in 2000 and eight and uh, you know, National Reporter said, what are, what are we expecting to see in the future? And I said the way that junior hires engage now is how you will engage in business in five years. So you think about that in 2008, what happened five years later was facebook and then instagram really got picked up. If you think about that now, it's it's not any more true, right? If we think about how junior hires are interacting on a platform like Tiktok, this is more how we're going to engage five years from now, right? So, and maybe it's two years from now, right? Like it's it's accelerated in that process. That's a great point because it comes back to its being aware of having an understanding of the human behavior within each one of these channels. If nothing more, watch observe and learn is a great path forward to overcome. Maybe some of the dangers that you're seeing here on the flip side, what are you most hopeful for? Um what are the great opportunities? Maybe one that someone can really kind of just if there's one thing that I can focus on to get an exponential gain, what would that thinking be? Here? We you and I were talking a little bit in in our conversation a bit ago about about the sense of community and and the way it's really engaging this human connection over and over again and uh you know, really where I see community financial brands benefiting? Um you know, is in the sense of how do we think about how we engage our community, How do we quantify it, how do we communicate it to our employees? How do we really double down on our purpose? And that's where we see huge marketing benefits um because you know, so often we'll work with a new financial brand that will ask the questions, what differentiates you from this bank or credit union down...

...the street and the conversation will turn to well and the way we care for our community is different. Um the way you know, we support our people um and I said well do your employees know that? How do you quantify that? And you know, we we have a whole product suite that we've built around community because we see other industries doing it, philanthropy is important. Community involvement is important. The way that your employees talk about that with each other and the way they talk about that as advocates Is extremely important. And it gives me hope really I want to make this really practical for the dear listener because I agree with you 110% on this. But you talk a lot about community, that's great but show don't tell make it practical, make it tangible, make it so that our internal teams can understand so that then the external community can also understand Aspiration.com. I wrote about them in banking on digital growth when I wrote this back in 2019, we published in May of 2020, I was kind of, I was a little like I'm gonna go out on a limb on this one because I don't know if aspiration is going to succeed and from all the signs that Sochaux's aspiration is on a growth curve. But if you go to aspiration dot com, I want you to look at their navigation structure on their website, it's very different than what we see at a lot of community financial brands. And the one path to really cue in on is what is called Impact. And you can actually go there aspiration dot com forward slash impact and it comes back to showing the value that they're creating for their community. It's a very unique perspective. So I I agree with you on that. Been this has been a great conversation as we wrap up what would be one small step, something very practical the dear listener can do to to move forward and make progress on their own digital growth journey because all all progress begins with a small, simple step. What's the small thing that you would recommend that they do next? I would absolutely begin by asking employees, they should be closer to closest to your brand, how they would explain digitally, Right? And maybe it's a tweet, maybe it's a, you know, a digital message. How would they explain your impact as a financial brand, in your community? That's a great one. How would you explain impact as a financial brand in your community, articulate that, communicate that and explore that. That's good. I think it's a very, very simple piece. But if we we have clearly not simplified enough our community impact. We've said it's about people,...

...we've said it's about community. Um but being able to simplify that down into very small statements. Um, and even asking then, you know, the nonprofits who are such great advocates, they can do, they can do a lot for you digitally, right as well. And you should be reaching out to them when you give a donation right there, there's opportunities to get links, there's opportunities to have them share your brand story. Um, but your employees are the ones going, they're uh, they're the ones that are headed there. Um, and they're they're grabbing that photo. Hopefully they're uploading that back into marketing. Um, but you know, those are opportunities really to say, let's simplify that down. What is the, the way that you see our financial brand having an impact in the community? That's a great one. And and on that note, this has been a fantastic conversation. I've learned a lot. I thank you for the knowledge that you've shared today with all of us. If someone wants to continue the dialogue that we've, we've started here today, Ben, what's the best way for them to reach out and say hello? Yeah, clearly at social insurance dot com. You know, we're we're about leaving your market being remarkable and you can connect with me on all of the social media places. Um, easy to find in that respect. Bennett social insurance dot com. Well, listen, Ben, I, I appreciate you, you're doing great work. You're helping financial brands do just that be remarkable. And I I I appreciate the important and meaningful work that you and the rest of the team at social assurance are doing. Thank you so much for joining me for another episode of banking on digital growth as always. And until next time be well. Do good and make your bed. Thank you for listening to another episode of banking on digital growth with James robert ley to get even more practical and proven insights along with coaching and guidance, visit digital growth dot com slash insider to join a community of growth minded marketing and sales leaders from financial brands and fin techs until next time, be well and do good. Yeah.

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