Banking on Digital Growth
Banking on Digital Growth

Episode · 6 months ago

198) #ExponentialInsights - Breaking the Bank: Standing Out in FinTech


What makes your financial institution special? Simply adopting digital concepts in an analog world isn’t enough to stand out in the FinTech crowd. You have to blaze new trails to be unique in the digital world.

My guest, Jason Henrichs, CEO at Alloy Labs Alliance, shares why he believes many banks aren’t doing enough to differentiate themselves in their pursuit of banking as a service - and gives some examples of a few who are!

Jason also elaborates on the experience he and his team had innovating their new digital banking platform - CHUCK.

Join us as we discuss:

- Why FIs need to separate themselves from the pack with their digital offerings [4:15]

- How human connectivity ties into digital growth [9:16]

- The significance of fundamental partnerships with account holders [20:15]

Check out these resources we mentioned during the podcast:


- @jasonhenrichs

- Breaking Banks

You can find this interview and many more by subscribing to Banking on Digital Growth on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, or here.

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for Banking on Digital Growth in your favorite podcast player.

It isn't really a strategy if everyone else would choose to do it right. That just means it's common sense at that point, and so using Fintech is common sense. You're listening to banking on digital growth with James Robert Lay, a podcast that empowers financial brand marketing, sales and leadership teams to maximize their digital growth potential by generating ten times more loans and deposits. Today's episode is part of the exponential insight series, where James Robert Lay interviews the industry's top marketing, sales and FINTECH leaders, sharing practical wisdom to exponentially elevate you and your team. Let's get into the show. Greetings in Hello, I am James Robert Lay, and welcome to the one hundred and ninety eight episode of the banking on digital growth podcast. Today's episode is part of the exponential insight series and I'm excited to welcome Jason Hendricks to the show. Jason is the CEO of Alloy Labs, a could sortium of leading community banks working together to drive innovation and adopt new technologies, while also developing and testing customer insights, creating fintech partnerships executing on new ideas and making strategic investments. Welcome to the show, Jason. It is so good to share Tommy tod today. Buddy, it has been way too long. I'm hyper calfeated ready to go to talk about pinting on digital growth. Don't you know what we're all going to cover, but I'm psyched for it. But you know, that's the fun part about these conversations is we've got a cup of people always ask me, you know, can I have a list of questions before I come on the show, and I'm like no, only if you want really boring content, because you're going to script your answers and it's exactly, exactly so. I I love doing these kind of off the cuff and it's definitely real. And speaking about being real, what's good for you right now? Man, personal, professional, your pick Um. Let's see, we're at the hyper close of the construction project. My wife text me this morning that this is the HGTV she expected two years ago. There's like ten work all around, because we've got our three year old's birthday party on Saturday and she's like this house will be done. Go flog whatever contractor you need. So that's good. The other it's been interesting as we've come in and out of Covid and I think we reached the point that we can really say yeah, you know, the world has changed fundamental a roll with it and we're going to need to continue to evolve and that gets me super excited for a lot of our community banks that you you know. So we're seventy banks now across the country and it was interesting is to watch. There are were some who were like just in the middle of it, like, you know, Quantic Bank in New York City, you know Mercantile Bank and Michigan, you know, early wants to get hit hard. And then some bank like center of Iowa, they like we don't know anyone in the county that's had covid right. So like this oldest pressure in the Shange, like we're not feeling it. But now that it's kind of like spread everywhere, I think it's really galvanized a bunch of the industry to say all right, let's pull this thing forward, no more excuses. Yeah, and we got to keep moving forward. And you know, while back you had delivered a keynote about differentiation, about strategy, about technology and you're talking to three hundred C suite bankers and and then something happened that I found really interesting. A banker, actually a CEO, came up to you and and they agreed with some of that your points about differentiation, or what you're really communicating, the lack of differentiation in banking and financial services. And he thought he thought he had a solution. He whispered to you, and in secret, that his bank, his bank, was going to work with thin text and those whispers, yeah, of those financial brands, quote unquote, working with Fintex has his now, you know, really...

...postpend. It's a roar. This is a problem and and I want to know why this is a problem and, more importantly, why is working with fintext not a strategy for future growth in a post covid digital first world? I mean, if you were Lincoln Savings Bank, in the first to jump into banking as a service, yeah, differentiated you, you know, you know, would say same like coastal community and your sunwast right, like there was a shot there. As I'm sure you've seen the finacial stress survey that fin extra published, eighty five percent of eggs say that they are going to get into banking as a service or have a think he's a service strategy. And the next eighteen months, which part of me believes that just because they thought of Fintech, they now believe they have a strategy. Well, strategy. You know, work for Michael Porter very early in my career and I you will sum up for everyone who is not read competitive strategy, but they should, especially every bank CEO out there, it really comes down to what is your unique value proposition that creates sustainable competitive advantage? HMM, if everyone's doing it, it is not unique. If everyone can do it, it is also not sustainable that it becomes your unique mode. And there was interesting litmus tests that one of my mentors at Monitor taught me that. It isn't really a strategy if everyone else would choose to do it. Right, that just means it's common sense at that point. And so are using thin tech? Is Common Sense? Yes, yeah, the world is digital, people also still want to interact with human beings, whether on the phone, chat in person. Right, there are just certain things we need. Everyone needs to use technology. The what behind it, the why am I doing this? What am I getting out of it? What's different about this? Is enabled by technology, but technology by itself is not a strategy. Well, want to roll this back because I think it's important for context in that like how how did we get to this point in the first place? You know, when it and I like the Michael Porter reference, like how did we get here when it came to leaders thinking about and really viewing seeing, quote unquote, working with Fintech as a strategy? Roll the clock back and bring us up to speed. Well, should. Let's go back to porter for a second. Also in the book. Here's my quick summary for everyone who, like doesn't want to go get their MBA take his class. Definitely worth it. He wrote that we think about a strategy, there really only two choices. Right. It calls a generic strategy. Just doesn't matter what industry. Do I compete on differentiation or do I compete on scale? Scale, equal price, which means I can does mean I necessarily pass that along. I'll a costco I might push it into differentiation. And then I also determine the scope of competition. Am I competing broadly or am I competing in some sort of niche? Historically, community banks have been able to compete with the largest banks, not just community banks. I'm going to throw in the midsize and the regionals to have all been able to compete, even though they all offer exactly the same sets of products and services, because we needed the branch right, we needed a human interface in order to execute these transactions. Digital transformation began to change that right, and so this idea of meeting the human in my branch footprint being my Ui, that's now changed and show what is become very clear is everyone had this standardized approach. And, by the way, I'm going to throw the regulators under the bus because they always ask for your strategic plan. When you go through the exam. It's not really a strategy, but we diluted ourselves that it was strategy because it had the word strategy in it right, and it really was just a plan which was a set of metrics in terms of where you're going to get to right, in terms of what are your ratios need to be, what do you looking for profitability? What are you looking for growth right, and can risk create it? Those are important things, but it's not a strategy and I think that right there is you touched on in a linkedin article the real problem with partnership...

...and you noted that that Fin fintech technology cannot fix an undifferentiated strategy or really, I think even deeper, a non existence strategy. Coming back to the idea of really the two paths, I've always really been inspired, since my freshman year of high school now, from the Robert Frost poem. Two roads diverge in a yellow wood and I love look. There's a poster set right by my desk. I always looked at that. I was like, Oh, you go down that path, you could go down that path. I was never really interested with what was down either path. I always look kind of like down the middle and I was like, let's go there through the woods. Yeah, and it's probably gonna hurt, but you're gonna go up to a place where people have not been before, and that is what personally excites me. It's almost like playing Oregon Trell, you know, on the otle MAC computers as a kid. It's like you know you're going out west and you're blaze new things, but like like what's the solution here? Let's go back to your the Robert Frost here right, since we have changed Robert Lay in their flight. Robbert frost the path that most banks went down. The first, the one that it was the most well trodden was can I buy it from my core and let about this from a how backwards is this and where did the fintexts have? The advantage is historically, banks look to their tech provider to say what technology is available? That will determine what you have. Determines my technology strategy. Then what I can turn on in configure is actually what I'm calling product. Not True. The way the rest of the world thinks about product right is I'm just going to determine my rate, my fees at my branding to it. Boom. So now my product strategy is being driven by what technology is available to me, and then what products I have are determining what my strategy is. Now what's wrong with this? Where's the customer in all of this? Well, practice, as we're going to be on the porter riff, five forces. What is the bargaining power of your customers when you all are offering the same thing? There is no bargaining power. There is no better reason other than rate to cross the street and open a checking account or to get a CD or to get a small business line from that other bank. Except now that it's being delivered digitally, and this is an important one and I know you love when I throw this one up, is not just about digitizing your broken processes right and digitizing your your checking account. Now that is digital lipstick on the analog pig. It is rethinking the experience because for the customer, they don't have a problem with their checking account, which is why, if you ask them what do they want another checking account will be like, I don't know, lower fees, you know, no overdraft, I don't know, because they don't know it's possible. When you begin to actually change that, and this is where I think the future, the interesting things will be around embedded finance, that it's embedded in some other experience. Yep, Yep, and I think a lot of times once again, you know, you see this. People don't know what they don't know. People can't see what they can't see. One of the greatest examples of that has been with, you know, seam jobs in the IPHONE. He didn't go out to do a lot of market research. He just saw something different and took a lot of your different ideas and brought them together in one quote unquote platform, and then that created an entirely new experience and experience as I defined as well, defined systems and processes centered around people that have been thought out applied, and I think the key here, particularly within baking, is continuously optimize over time, resulting in a positive or a negative emotion. Right, Yep, yeah, and so there's there's definitely the the psychology and I when it comes to technology, it's a tool and a tool can be used to bring people together for good. But you know so much conversations around digital transformation and I'm like, well, what about human transformation? Why is it that when we go and we look at all of the big consulting firms, are all seeing the same sixty eighty five percent.

They struggle with digital transformation or they fell. They fell completely, they felt to me. But what about human transformation? Here, where's the little the opportunity? I love how you called that out, because too often when we talked about user experience, we're really talking about user interface. Right, needs to be prettier and a better, you know, user journey. User experience really is holistic night. What is what the product of the future is, not just for financial services but in general. Where is that emotional connectivity? Where does it meet you? Where you are in your life, probably now. I'd haven't overused this example, because people still like don't fully internalize it. No one wakes outing because you're going to be awesome. I want to go do a refly right now or get a new mortgage right Oh yeah, like that just sounds fun. Okay, maybe bankers do because they're rate watching and panicking and trying to dig out as much leverage as again right now. But everyone else's part of a bigger story. Did I move? Yep. Did I have kids? Are My kids gone? My retiring, getting married, getting divorced? Right, there's your story, not in that's the connectivity where even the the best of experiences right. So rocket mortgage makes it super easy to apply and get a decision. It's an improvement, you know. Let me pick on one of my personal favorites, Jamire Carkle, one of the founders. It's simple and I were reminiscing that. You know, it should. Perk Street was found in two thousand and eight. Simple two thousand and nine. We had product market two thousand nine. I would say they were two thousand and eleven. So fast forward a decade, right, you have decade plus and spear I there may have been cocktails involved here. It's like you can beat your paycheck two days faster. That's it. It's alway've accomplished in a decade is get your paychecks. I mean use your interfaces are, you know, prettier and you can open more. But we haven't solved some fundamental issues because I think we haven't re engineered the system far enough. And what I'm hoping for a number of the banks in the Fintex like, here's where it gets interesting, is the lazy thing has been to I can just digitize and that's innovation. But yeah, that's really a defense game. You're just keeping up. At that point, those that are going to succeed are going to just say, you know what, we need to blow up what we think banking is. And I think that right there is the the the root of all opportunity in what I see is a pattern of helping people see things differently than how they saw before. That will then inspire them to think differently than how they saw before. And then when I asked that, well, what happens next, you know a lot of people will respond, well, I'm going to do different. I'm AH, no, you have to feel different before you go and act and do different, and that right there. Let's dig deeper into this, because it's really about transforming the thinking beyond a tool first or technology first model to a problem first model. We get this all the time, especially in this is. We jokingly call it the sorting hat for whether we're going to let someone into alloy labs. If your fixation is on Tommy, which vendor I should use, you're not a great thing, because that's not the problem you have. It is. That is the pervasive part of the industry, which is when we ask back, it's like, what problem are you trying to solve? Like I told you, small business lending. Like no small business ever said their problem was the lending tool right that you could pick any of you know a dozen players out there that can go solve this for you. It's what you do with the tool once you have it right, and that's what's going to differentiate you. And so you better go figure out what do I do that's unique in this grand ecosystem, because being able to make a digital loan to a small business is table stakes. You have to do that, but that is not going to make your business blow up and continue to expand digital growth is a journey from good to great, but sometimes this journey can feel confusing, frustrating and overwhelming. The good news is you don't have to take this journey alone,...

...because now you can join a community of growth minded marketing and sales leaders from financial brands and fintext who are all learning, collaborating and growing together. Visit Digital growthcom slash insider to learn more about how you can join the digital growth insider community to maximize your future digital growth potential. Now back to the show. So I mean let's let's talk culture here, because I think cold sure, once again, this is human transformation that starts internally to transform the mindset of leadership. Where's the opportunity and maybe what are the roadblocks that are holding the back to begin with? The to maybe shine some light on that so that we can Ben Begin to create that awareness to then transform the thinking to put you know, problem first, model, not technical tool first, been conditioned. Look at who we've raised up into leadership positions and who your sits in the sea suite. More often than not they come up through the commercial wending side. Now this is worse than a dad joke. My wife refers to as my banker joke is, you know, what do you call chief lending officer that has ten percent losses in their portfolio? It's an x. You know Clo. What do you call a chief innovation officer who has a ninety percent success rate? Right, just the opposite of it. They're not very innovative because they're not doing anything that hasn't been done before. If it works ninety percent of the time, you're treading the path that is well trodden. At that point, if you're going to go on path right unt let's go back to the Robert Frost. So everyone went down the main path of I need to get it from my core, and now the Oh my gosh, like that's the problem, because the rest of the world change a what's on the other path? Right now it's a race to I need to go work with thin pack right without stopping to rethink the what am I trying to accomplish? The James Robert Lay. I'm going to cut through the center of this and go where no one has gone before. Culturally, that's scary because that means I'm going to do things that aren't necessarily going to work out, and that's okay. And now we're not saying, Hey, you need to go run the entire bank that way, like that's a horrible idea. Not suggesting that. I've had to CEEOS call me out on that. ORS Like you're say we need to run the bank like a start I'm like no, I'm not suggesting run the bank like a start up. I'm telling you that run the bank that way, but you need to start planting other seeds and other places and I'm saying, you know, go bed on, we're going to go be the bank a cannabis or go put it all in on like gambling, like we are the Bank of gambling. Let's go big. But you need to start say, okay, what are things that I can begin to experiment around? Is I rethink what it means to deliver financial services that I can actually win where there's, you know, Blue Ocean opportunity and is not on buy it from my core or buy it from a findeck path. Right, they may enable it. Yeah, but you know, correct to get into the woods if you're going to go find that unique. I like it. I like it get into the woods and I think sometimes like that's where you need a helpful guide, someone who's been down that path before and you've done this. You know you're doing this right now. I know that. You know within days of going live with Chuck, Y'all learned more about how customers would use the product then you could have ever guessed in a roadmap and you took that insight. And it really comes back to the for what I call expdential growth environments, where you must be learning, you must be thinking, you must be doing and you must be reviewing, and the danger zone is where you just get stuck continuously doing, not taking time to review, not taking time to learn through those experiences and think about how you could do it even better. What did you learn, like an in reflection of that specific to chalker broadly, what have we learned about this as a specific to chuck because, like you know, that's a real practical use case right here of applying this thinking of a just continuous innovation iteration, you know, going into the woods to use your knowledge of the first things we learned.

Well, I say the number one thing we've learned is people don't like Zel like a lot of bangs do not like Zeln. There was pent up anger and demand around this and I think there's an insight there, because the thing they don't like is it wasn't a good partnership. It was a product being shoved down their throat and it wasn't necessarily a product that their customers like. The experience, they had no ability to influence it, but what we learned about our customers was a couple things. One is that there is actually a digital divide of people that are being left behind in digital transformation and it's a role, I think, that the branch still has to play. Where the first bank to go live on chuck would you know's answering questions in the branch. You know a people who were scared of it because they've heard, and this is a direct quote, just you know is leading an off site to three years ago for a bank. The speaker before me, who's was a wellknown consultant to the community banking industry, said never use Thenmo, all of your money and your identity will be stolen. DRUCK quote like kind of through through that down right into the bank boards. Take notes. We must never use VENMO. I'm like, it's not exactly true, but that's planted in a bunch of people's minds. Now of you don't use new tools, and now there's this divide between those and you know, this is both an age and sometimes of socioeconomic you know, kind of divide that further accentuates the halves in the havenots around tools and ways to do things that we need to keep people up. Another thing we learn in once you embed the ability to interact between payment networks, which is really chuck's value proposition. What's unique about it? Well then Mo paypap rush happens. Zel are all close networks. Both the center and receiver need to be on the same network and we said, Loui want to open it up and be a network of networks. Give the choice to the customer in terms of I just want to send money to you. I don't care what APP you use. Let you choose that and show like what we learned was there's a huge pent up demand for that once it was enabled. What you're digging into here is really where I see such a tremendous growth opportunity. Coming back to your point of like open banking, banking as a service, and this is about partnership, this is about collaboration, and I know that you note when it comes to partnership partnership should be fundamental, not incremental. What what do you mean by that and and what are the opportunities to really look at partnership through a fundamental lens and not an increment or Mental Lens? Is Vendor Management? Well, that sounds old and painful. Let's now call it partnership. Well, if you're actually just having a arms length vendor relationship, which you need some of those, not everything is partnership, but if it is something where you're trying to explore the unknown, you need to actually align strategically. Can we agree on a vision for what we're shooting for and do our ethos and values around how we're trying to accomplish that aligned, because the path through the woods is going to be a lot more painful than you deliver a service. I make sure it's meeting the SLA. If so, I pay you, if not, you remediate, if not, I sue you. Right, that's not partners m right. So not give an example of that. One of our graduates of the concept lab is get careful with two ELL's out of New York City. What are they do? Is They are a platform for caregivers to manage the expenses of aging Americans right fundamental issue. I'm in the thick of it right now. Interestingly, there's economic researches shows you can diagnose dementia five, seven years earlier through financial data than clinically. I know this one firsthand. Is why a big...

...hands of what careful does. But think of over the course of somewhere between ten and twenty years, there is a progression from when, especially the adult children, go from I can see mom and dad stuff to co piloting mom and dad's financials to you know where I am is they threw the keys to me and I'm like this thing, the ass and so when we approach carvel said, we think you should be partnering with banks are like what are like our fundamental asset, and this is true of all banks. Like plant. This is the seed for what bangs need to do to find a new strategy. Is there one asset that they have right now? They have existing customers that trust them. Now they need to figure out what do I do with that? That is unique. Faster than the startup world in the vendors coming from the side can build their own customer base and their own trust, because if they don't figure out how they turn that expiring asset into something more valuable than just to bank at a place I store my money. You're going to have on the flip side, you know, you're seeing the chimes of the rolls are, you know, as trusted as a bank and you're finding these new entrants are providing enough value that I'm willing to take a leap. I'm so glad you're tying into this idea of what I'm framing is community with current account holders, because even down to the point, and it's super tactical, but an email address right, like you know, this is an asset that you can do evaluation against, and I want to say it was shop of five to where they through the research that they were doing. An email to a brand is worth about thirty five dollars, more or less, and I'm like that's really interesting, because then you can start making the case of well, let's go out and let's do some not audience building, but digital community building. Now it comes back to having that niche of what we're taking about this full circle. I want to get your take on this because you're talking about this idea of dementia healthcare. There's such a strong connection between financial wellbeing, physical wellbeing, mental wellbeing, relational wellbeing. How do we empower leadership teams to see beyond just the financial side and look at these other elements that if we can transform a person's wallet, we can, you know, improve their physical wellbeing, if we transform their wall, we can improve their mental, their relational and Frost Bank out of Texas is doing this and they have the research to back this up with the program called opt for optimism. I want to get your take on this. where? Where's the connection here between all these other health points showed? Financial Health Network has amazing data on this, you know, in their site and everyone you should go to provoke that FM and listen to Jennifer Pesher's our merge podcast, or she explores all of these intersections on a biweekly basis. And you know, when we're Perk Street, we did to fill it some research around the sources of stress and across the board, and this was built across like now, who did the original research? But eighty five percent of American say the number one source of stress in their life is running out of money. Right, cross call income classes. Right, that's a problem. Right, and the impacts your physical wellbeing. Right, it impacts your family, like the number one reason people get divorces. We are tying this all together is normally brought back to finances. Well, I think it was infidelity, then finances, right like those things play into each other and there's the opportunity, and this is where I think banks have struggled, is we have so much data on our customers that our ability to deliver and tailor things that help improve their lives incrementally and even fundamentally right. I think the fundamental remaking of their lives is a series of incremental steps. We don't have to figure out the silver bullet and advance right. It is a series of hacks that get us there where it's like, you know, let's try this, does it help? Lets try this, does... help? How do we actually do? Take those things. Have a big vision for what it's going to look like, but you don't know. Back to your Oregon trail, you know pre ways. You didn't have it yet. You know down to the turn. When you decide, you know you're leaving the east coast. In your head, indoor organ right, weather storms movie south and you know the pass is closed and someone's got dysentery. Right like the journey changed over times. Why? You know, you kept anatlist in the back seat on those road trips. Yeah, because you're like time to deviate, but the most exciting thing you can find are going to be the ones where you're deviating and you're leading into something. Eric Reese had this really interesting comment. So forget what year was, just remember it was cold use it's when he had started teaching at Harvard Business School and we were out having dinner and Time magazine had just not named pivot the business word of the year. Right, talk about something to take you down and notch. Like I didn't even know. Having the business word of the year was something on my bucket list that I wanted to accomplish, and here he had done it. And he was kind of down on it, though, and I'm like, Dude, this is this word of the yeared how can you be down on you know that, like that's pretty darn cool, and he's like yeah, except everyone misunderstands it and misuses it. It's like turns out his basketball fan and it's like, you know when you pivot and basketball it's when you move off of your strong foot, right, which is why I'm a bad basketball player. Right, I turned into the week foot and yeah, it all ends horribly. Luckily, my wife didn't know this before we got married. Big Basketball family when to made the cut. So he said, what you see is people say, Oh, you know, we we're doing something again. We pivoted, and he's like, didn't pivot, you just quit doing stupid stuff. You don't use stuff, but keep this family friendly, right, you just you just quit doing something stupid. That's common sense. It's right. The pivot is, how do I find a thread of insight that I can pull on that's pulling me in the right direction in this is one of the things we've been banking that I think we confuse all the time. Not Losing is not the same thing as winning. Absolutely and and I agree with you wholeheartily. There let's you know, let's look ahead towards the future for just a minute, and this has been such a fun conversation. Jason. What are you what are you most hopeful what are you most excited about? If you look out, let's just call it a short horizon line, three years, because we know how much can happen in three years if we've learned anything from the last two. But let's look out three years. What are you most hopeful what he most excited about? Do I get to answer what I'm most afraid of right afterwards, because I'll influence you. Will you know? It's interesting that I like your thinking, because this, this goes into a strategic thinking question that I use for those and the Digital Growth Institute and the banking on digital growth program I asked them, how do you want to grow? Right and it's and it's an acronym. It's goals and it's kind of like this exercise here where we're leaping ahead and looking back. And then the ours, the road blocks. It's like what, what do you need to be aware of from from your vantage point right now, that could trip you up, that could be, you know, an am pediment to those goals. And then it's like the stoic thinking of okay, finally identify those roadblocks. One are the opportunities that we can then use to overcome those roadblocks to work towards those goals for growth. And I think it's so easy, coming back to your port of strategic planning. Will we have these goals but we don't even really think about the roadblock until we're right up on the road block and at that point it's like, you know, then it's a real challenge, so let's sleep ahead and let's look out, look back and then get into your fear or what I call the road block. Buckle up. Gave me a lot to discuss their soh time back to the economic question that you brought up before. Is You right now get answer? The thing I'm most excited about in terms of ability to fundamentally change how businesses...

...and consumers run their financial lives is the power of AI. HMM. The thing I am most afraid of is the power of AI and unintended consequences and who actually has access to it? Not, and this times back to your economic discussion, because one of the big problems is often we look at some of these fundamental investments we need to go make, we say, what is the business case for creating a data lake or Apis that allow me to extract and bundle in learn from my data and then do something with it? I don't see the business case right. Let me tell you. Across our members, the ones who said yeah, having core system, and I don't mean core and the traditional sense, but like a platform that is flexible and can move data around. Those members of alloy labs that had taken the pain and said, yeah, we should go do that, like that is probably going to be in the important for us in the future. Nowhere in their business plan, in the business case, did they say global pandemic, go to work from home and a span of a week. Right, but they said, hey, we think for the future flexibility is important. Then those who are hardwired in there, both their people processes in the systems that support them, had the opposite experience. Right, they're the ones that have the first round of PPP were like we made it, people work seven tie yourselves on the back. Then you're like second waves coming, right. They were nearly dead by the third wave or they weren't offering you know, in the Third Way. Yep. So you need to take the foundational investment to free the data. That is your road block. But here's why it also worries me. The law of unintended consequences and what happens when we're able to go do some of this right? Yes, like it is creepy the amount of data that is out there for you. And what worries me is, in a hyper capitalistic system, who's looking out for the best interest right in the world. That moves slowly. You know you've got some time to figure some of this out and not arguing the CFPV needs to be all over everyone and in the shorts, but it I think there's something deeper than the regulators, because I think they will end up getting involved only when something really, really bad has happened and it's been pretty widespread. There's a Harvard Business Journal article that addresses this and I'm going to quote from it, and this is research that I've been doing around banking on change getting into the subconscious mind. The quote is this. All knowledge can be used in constructive, social, responsible ways, just as it can be used harmfully. The more knowledge we acquire, the more we are faced with this dilemma. If we want the opportunity to use knowledge to benefit consumers, we should not shy away from learning about the inner workings of the human mind. This also runs the risk that some people might use that same knowledge and ways we consider inappropriate. Here I think all of us have a special responsibility to making clear to consumers and managers alike what we consider appropriate and inappropriate uses of knowledge. This, at least will help lessen the inadverse and miss use of knowledge. You're right, it's almost like a Pandora's box, because I'm we're going to go really kind of like a centric ethereal with this, but I'm I'm finding the mind is more and more like a computer. It's programmable, it's hackable, and then you're getting into like really like an out their thought. But I don't think it's too far away of using AI and predictive analytics to almost see what someone can do before they're even doing it, based upon previous patterns and behaviors. So you're right,...

I think it's a it's one I don't and I don't have an answer for it, but I think we should be having conversations about it, for sure. So the brand will remain nameless on this. But what they found is is big consumer brand that they could predict pregnancy before the couple evil even was going after it. I know exactly. I know exactly you're talking about on this one. Yeah, and it wasn't because of you know, you were signally like it's not like I want, but what to expect, what you're expected. Right, there's a whole series of patterns that when you were beginning to think about having a family like, or I should say entering the stage that you're going to begin thinking about it. That signal before you may have even said something to your significant other, Yep, or partner whatever. Right that that is power for good is hey, maybe it's time to curtail you're drinking, smoking, lose some weight, start exercising power for bad. You know, do I begin to influence you know, purchase behavior, take advantage of you know, other changes that make you more susceptible to something else. MMM MMM. So I think here I want to get real practical and take us out of a dystopian future, but is one that we should be really aware of. And where do we go from here? Like, and I think all all growth, all transformative growth, start to the very small, simple step. What would that be? Because this is this is something, this future that we're all working to create here, that I'm hopeful for. I it's a bigger, better, brighter future. We all grow together, we all learn together, we all win together, but it's we can't do it alone. It's too confusing, it's too complex, it's too overwhelming. This is the collaboration idea. And so where do we go next? What's something that the deer listener can do today to take a step in the right direction for tomorrow. I think step one is going back to what is our vision for the future, what do we stand for? And you find a vision that someone else would not necessarily subscribe to. Right think, if everyone is going to willing to subscribe to that vision, that's not a very unique vision. But you know, if you start with that vision, then say what's one small thing I can go do to test that vision in terms of what I'm leaning into, in terms of what I want to be and where I'm going to go, because the problem with a lot of the business cases, to pick on business cases for a while, is they focus so heavily on Roli. And where is the Roi? And the reality is in order for it to be exciting, the ore has to be right, return has to be large and impactful and as result you're getting big ours often requires big right so big investment to get the big return. So, as a result, that makes me more afraid from capital allocation point of view. Yeah, if you want to move nimbly, have a big vision and then go find something that you can test, a small R with a small eye to go do it, because then it doesn't matter if it doesn't work. We take whatever learning you had out of it, pivot on the success, right the strong leg lean into what you learned. That was good. Now to go do another small ROI project against that. Yeah, and this is what, in banking on change, I'm writing to. You have to care for growth, and it digital growth. Topia. Acronyms run a muck, because it's the only way that this add my I can actually remember something. But but the the Sea of care is creating a cause and committing to a cause that is bigger than the present moment, and I think that's where what I call VMV PV. So that is that the vision per se. It's identifying the villain, like who's the villain that we can really rally, you know,...

...the the the horses and the and the wagons around, back to our organ trill narrative. Who's the villain that we can rally the horses around really commit to emission and a vision, and then the purpose goes beyond what we're doing internally. That ex that goes externally, and then the values that we bring to support all of that. That's how we commit to a cause that is far greater than what we're seeing right here in the present moment. This is, personally, what I'm excited about and we look at find means, understandably. And, Dude, one of my favorite banks to cheer lead is sunrise banks here, yes, cities right and David Reisling, David, and back on what they stand for. You know, not to pick on your acronym, I don't want to screw it up, but I'd say they started with the values, right, they figured out what they stood for and then when figured out their strategy and took them. You know, they're one of the only B Corp banks out there. There are, interestingly, that's fewer banks in the US, but they're part of the Global Association of banking on values. Yes, they're committed to carbon neutral they're committed to being able to deliver to their customers understanding of what their carbon footprint is. Right, because hope that is something they value. Yeah, yeah, no, I think it's a great point. And and that takes time and that takes commitment, that takes some courage to to look beyond the kind of how we've done things for the last, you know, fifty hundred, hundred, fifty years for a lot of financial brands here state side specifically, and then we can talk about internationally as well. This has been awesome, Jason. If someone was to continue the conversation that we have started here today with you, what is the best way for them to reach out say hello? You can always reach me it alley labscom or at Jason Hendrix on twitter. That's a GNRI I shs. Have A LISTEN AT PROVOKED OT FM with breaking banks. We have some good content out there, some new stuff coming up. Always playing with formats and you know, we go deeper on a lot of the values and change in places that financial institutions need to lean in. Yeah, connect with Jason, learn from Jason, listen from Jason. PROVOKE DOT FM. Great stuff over there. Jason, thanks for joining me for another conversational banking on digital growth. Always Fun, always fun, as always. Be well, do good and make your bed. Thank you for listening to another episode of banking on Digital Growth with James Robert Leigh. To get even more practical and proven insights, along with coaching and guidance. This it digital growthcom slash insider to join a community of growth minded marketing and sales leaders from financial brands and Finn Tax. Until next time, be well and do good.

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