Banking on Digital Growth
Banking on Digital Growth

Episode · 2 months ago

142) #ExponentialInsights: Data Takes Marketing from Cost Center to Revenue Center

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Imagine a football game where every stat is measured flawlessly… except for the ones that tell you the score.

How do you tell if your team won?

Most marketing teams don’t need to imagine it — they’re playing it.

And nobody knows if they’re winning.

That’s why Kevin MacNeil, Vice President Accounts at Metric Marketing, is adamant that the first step every financial brand should take to turn their marketing teams from cost to revenue center is getting better data.

In this episode, we discuss:

- The importance of data-driven marketing decisions

- The third-party integrations ruining your data

- Why nearly every financial brand’s website is terrible

You can find this interview and many more by subscribing to Banking on Digital Growth on Apple Podcasts , on Spotify , or here .

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for Banking on Digital Growth in your favorite podcast player.

...if the data is wrong and it probably is,we're not going to get this conversation off the ground if youdon't trust the day, you'll never make decisions on it. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. You're listening to banking on digitalgrowth with James Robert lay a podcast that empowers financial brand marketing,sales and leadership teams to maximize their digital growth potential bygenerating 10 times more loans and deposits. Today's episode is part ofthe exponential insight series where James robert interviews the industry'stop marketing sales and fintech leaders, sharing practical wisdom toexponentially elevate you and your team. Let's get into the show greetings andhello, I am James robert, ley and welcome to the 142nd episode of thebanking on digital growth podcast. Today's episode is part of theexponential insight series and I'm excited to welcome Kevin McNeil to theshow. Kevin is the vice president of accounts that metric marketing who isfocused on data driven, big ideas that deliver results for financial brands.Welcome to the show, kevin, so glad to be here. Thank you for having me beforewe get into this conversation today focused around data data driven growth.I always like to start things off on a positive note. What's good for you man.What's good personally, What's good professionally? It is always your pickto begin. I thank you for asking me personally. I'm a blessed man. I got Igot two little ones to keep me really busy at home. I got my little boy justturned three, my little girl turned 1.5 in the same weekend, We did not planthat, by the way, I don't think anybody plans that we didn't plan that. I willtell you, we have an april 18th to May 7th to May 18th, you guys threeBirthdays, three birthdays in literally a one month span And then we got thisoutlier or August 25, which is, he's my buddy because I'm in August 31 birthday,so But yeah man, congratulations. So three and one and a half-18 monthsapart, it sounds like we're right there with you because ours are aboutanywhere between 18 months to 24 months apart. Our oldest is now 11 and I'mlike you're not a little boy anymore, it's beautiful to see his growth andindependence and so enjoy it buddy, enjoy it. I do yeah, I remind myself ofthat every day it's on the personal side of things, you know, I think noteverybody has to have kids, but for those of us lucky enough to have kidsand it fit their lives and what have you been bringing a kind of happinessyou can't find anywhere else. And he asked about, you know, the professionalside of things, obviously everybody's been through a crazy 19 months orwhatever at now on this covid clock and there's opportunity about, you know,you definitely try to go into different professional situations, still havingempathy for people and trying to understand what the last 19 months havebeen like for them in their lives, but as far as, you know, the online spacewhere we play with the most in the industries that we focus on, there'sopportunity about I really like that perspective because, you know, youmentioned the Covid Clock, I'm gonna have to borrow that from you. I call itthe Covid experience because it's something that we're all journeyingthrough together and keeping a positive mindset, keeping focus on theopportunities, not getting stuck in the here and now. We just hosted anorientation for the banking on Digital Growth program. Had a, you know, abunch of leaders from, from around the country come in and, and actually itlooks like we, I think we had someone from overseas to out of europe joiningtoday and we're working through an exercise, simple exercise what's goingwell, what's been going well? And it's an acronym is probably our most popularthinking exercise that and this is gonna be in the next book Making onChange. Because I'm looking at Covid and just talked about this with BrettKing and episode 1 40 Covid's been a...

...preview, Covid is a preview of reallyall the exponential changes we're going to experience. So if you can focus onwhat's been going well, where have you been winning? What are you excitedabout? What have you learned? And then what are you looking ahead to towardsin the future? You're literally getting you're taking a journey in your ownmind through the past, the present and then looking into the future, but it'sall through the positive lens. The mind can only hold a positive are negativethought emotion at a time. And the more that we can train our minds program ourminds to focus on the positive, the more that I think growth will be anatural result from that experience as a whole. Yeah, I agree with a lot of wesaid there, I'm blanking on who it was a very famous speaker was talking aboutthe one thing that we've been through with Covid is change. It's acceleratedand pushed change at a rate that, you know, we haven't seen since other majorpoints in human evolution and the change brings opportunity. And so youtalk about, you know, thinking about positive, I think about opportunity allthe time and I definitely think we're in a time of opportunity. Yeah. And youknow, I can't help but think of Ryan Holiday in his book, The obstacle isthe way the subtitle of that is the timeless art of turning trials intotriumph. And Ryan writes from the perspective of the ancient stoics andhe's applying that to some modern day thinking so really the obstacle is theway and and let's look at the way, what are the ways forward when it comes toutilizing data as a, as a path forward for growth data is a big part of thefocus of the work that you're doing at metric marketing and, and, and fromyour perspective, you've mentioned opportunities. So let's stay on thattrack. What are the opportunities for financial brands when it comes to usingdata as a path for growth? Yeah. Everything we do is rooted in data andeverything. You know, I'm going to talk about when I talk about opportunities,going to come back to data. Like I always feel like when I'm talking inthe financial sector, I've gotta start at a place where this conversationstarts at everyone is on the internet, especially in today's day and age. Ifthere's anybody listening to this that is still whole humming about whatpercentages of their membership or their customers are avid internet, notjust users, but they make decisions on the internet, they buy on the internet,their lives are on the internet. It's facts now. But one thing Kobe did as itpushed the last 25, of people who still wanted to do things, quote unquote theold way. It pushed them into working through what we call their customerjourney and it's happening more and more online. So the opportunities inthe data lie within people being online, our customers or potential customersbeing online, we have more opportunity to understand their behaviors tounderstand how to reach them, what's working and what's not in reaching them.And most importantly, I think we'll get to a lot of, in our conversation today.We put the right pieces in place will understand if we're getting ourpotential consumers and our current customers to do what we want them to do.If we're providing the things that they need to fulfill that customer journey,do their research, get to a place of comfort to consideration and then dowhat we want them to do. That's a great point. You may get them to a place ofcomfort guide them on this journey beyond. Some stresses some concerns,some questions, some pain points that are really bothering them because theantithesis of confusion and chaos let's call that that's where they're at today.They're really looking for clarity because an increase in clarity willlead to a commitment which digitally speaking is clicking the apply buttonto open an account, apply for a loan. You know, one of the things when itcomes to data, you're talking about...

...behaviors and before we hit recordwe're talking about like just take the U. S. For example, us. You know, wecould say there's there's 456 different quote unquote subcultures regionallyspeaking in the U. S. You've experienced that as a Canadian. Youknow working within the United States and that has been an eye openingexperience coming from the outside in talk about that experience and how datadoes help with that and really goes beyond I think where a lot of us canget it wrong. We make some assumptions and those assumptions can be killerwhen it comes to marketing. And so data takes the emotion out of it, data helpsto look at things objectively and quantifiable. E and so you're you'reliterally looking at this from an entirely different lens and this isn'tjust true for the United States. I just did a podcast on uh some of the thingsthat are going on in latin America right now, once again kind of you know,some some similarities. But then there's still some subcultures that aredifferent from point A to point B. What are your thoughts? I don't want tosound like the guy who's trying to take the human being out of it because it'snot the case. You know when we're marketing potential customers, ourcurrent customers, we have to have empathy and put ourselves in the shoesof the human being is making decision. But data gives us the answers. It takesaway the guessing games. I remember graduating actually being in businessschool, taking my marketing major and never thinking that I was going to gointo marketing and advertising because I didn't think it was quantifiableenough. Like I knew that's how my brain worked. I'd already been in sales. Iknew sales is going to be part of my life and I love the quantifiable natureof argue doing a good job in sales right? And at the time didn't thinkmarketing was 15 weeks, it wasn't quantifiable enough. And then when Istarted getting into analytics and learning how to make decisions based onthe data, you know, I found my fit there and in our company's we'll findour answers in that data. It doesn't have to be a guessing game whether ornot one of the big questions I get people all the time is my website doingits job. You know, is my website good or bad. This is not an opinion baseddecision anymore. There's a number to it. So many things that we do inmarketing online about driving a particular audience to us online to ourplace where we get them to do what we want to do to convert. That's ourwebsite. Your websites job is measured in a conversion percentage. Everythingelse is getting them there once they're they're your websites job is to getthem to do what you want them to do, convert. So is your website good or bad?The answers in the data and it's a question we still get all the time andby the way some of you are listening to this for sure your website is bad. It'snot bad because you know you might have some brand issues or what have you. Butwhat we experience when we get to know a company as we get into theiranalytics and we start trying to find opportunity and get over challenges andwebsites are performing poorly all over north America right now because of alack of good data. We actually don't know that conversion percentage. That'sa great point to make. And one of the ways that we've diagnosed this here atthe Digital Growth Institute is specifically through the lens offinancial services is that the vast majority, I would say 85%. I mean itreally is the parade of principle applied 80 85% are nothing more thanglorified online brochures. Even in, you know, this, you know, post covidworld that we're all navigating through together And there's no one, I wouldsay two point fault that it is what it is and if we can accept that and lookat it like from an anthropological lens. It's because these websiteshistorically were built by literally taking a brochure out of the branch in1999 to build the very first website back then for a lot of these communityinstitutions specifically. And it's...

...been kind of that same thinking patternof the physical world if you will has driven the digital world. You see thatwith online applications, once again taking a paper application making aloan application, a digital loan application out of that and it doesn'ttranslate. There's there's a lot of complexity in the physical world thatthen gets amplified because of technology because of digitalapplications are a great example of that. So one of the ways that you canquantify this is with google analytics and this is this is another pain pointthat we see through the coaching that we're doing here either a they're notusing google analytics B. They have google analytics set up but they don'treally know how to take advantage of what's inside. What should we bemeasuring? They don't have goals set up for example or c they have it all setup but they're not taking any action out of the insights that they'regaining and applying. So what are you seeing on urine? How might financialbrands be able to leverage google analytics data that can lead to morethoughtful marketing around people? Yeah I appreciate you walking into mywheelhouse here. I'm hoping we get here today. It's a problem. And I alwaysthink it's important to say for anybody listening to this if you're the personthat you believe or you are responsible for the analytics and marketinganalytics, your company, you didn't do anything wrong. You're not behind theeight ball. You know if you're new at a place you didn't inherit some mess.Everybody in the sector has these same problems. It's because of thetechnologies we have so many different technologies that especially communityinstitutions, you know we do a lot of work with credit unions. We use so manydifferent third party pieces of technology that it has just watereddown the data to a point that if somebody tells me they spend a ton oftime in google analytics right now before we walk in. I say why what areyou doing there? We're getting there is one information out there. Okay. Butit's on behaviors and it's on users and traffic and things like this. Theoutcomes that are being measured are either not there. They don't haveconversion goals set up at all as you mentioned or the conversion goals thatthey are measuring are so useless. The idea of bringing them to my Ceo so hecan bring them to the board. We're bringing in my Ceo. So we can talkabout return on ad spend or return on investment for what we're doing inmarket average is impossible. The data's no good. I always compare it to,I know you're in Houston so I'll use football as the example from football.Guys always use football as an example. But people using analytics and tryingto make decisions based on data the way it's set up when we walk in. Normallyit's like playing a football game and you're keeping every stat in the worldof the score of the game. And then at the end of the game, the two coachesget together and try to figure out who won. And one of the guys saying onecoach saying, well we ran for 100 20 yards. We want the other coach saying,well we forced three turnovers. So we went and nobody knows and that'sexactly what happens with google analytics and it's not a guessing game,why you're not measuring the score of the game properly? Yes. And it's agreat analogy. One of the things that we see the improper management or orexploration of data is around like clicks, clicks on an apply button. WellI just want to play a hypothetical numbers game for the dear listener tohelp make this even more real for them. Let's hypothetically say you drive 1000people to a landing page and you get 100 people to click on that applybutton. I'm doing this to make my math super easy. So now we have a 10%conversion rate, quote unquote. If you're measuring clicks on that applybutton as a fired off action. However, we know that around depending upon theproduct, Probably between 60-80, of people that start the application aregoing to abandon. So what we can say at...

...that point to probably do someadjustment our actual conversion rate if you will on that application wouldbe 15. So in reality our conversion rate went from a 10% conversion rate.If it's based upon clicks To actual true conversions would be about 1.5%.Now, if I'm still doing math properly on this and from that point Out of that1.5%, take that down even further to use your football analogy. Getting themacross the goal line, getting the score. It would not only just be converted, itwould be converted and funded is the ultimate like taking that down to thebottom line. So what are some of the challenges that you're seeing in thisspace when it comes to google analytics, where are people getting stuck, wherethey struggling, what's holding them back here? Your example is perfect forthe most common problem that we see is that we can't measure what's workingand what's not, we can't make clear decisions on whether or not we'redriving the right behaviors or website is performing our landing pages for himand what may have you because we measure the outcome wrong. So theexample you gave is perfect because that click to apply is great gamemeasure it but it's a key performance indicator, it's rushing arts, you'relying to yourself if you're saying them to score the game And a big thing thatwe do with our clients is we're trying to really influence a culture changewhere everyone can make decisions based on data. You come back to your ceo withthat 10% conversion rate And trust is going out the window because thenumbers of Fugazi, the Benghazi, we're never going to get to the point ofmaking decisions based on the data because we don't have the trust. So youactually get beautiful numbers there because if I walk in and I see a 10%conversion rate on anything. I say pump money into advertising. You'reconverting at 10% just drive the people there because we're gonna be printingchecks, 1.5 and a half like two Conversion rate is a good benchmark fora lot of things cut under 2%. Like then we're getting more realistic right? Soit brings like this is a little bit of a more technical point, but it's a bigone. We measure marketing outcomes wrong all the time almost every 9900places we walked into and we try to fix that. So we want to get to a place inour Ceo wants us to get to a place where you talked about getting over thegoal line. Their marketing should be held responsible for what's becomingcommon terminology that marketing Qualified lead, yep, I got the rightuser to us. They filled out the application that is a marketingconversion goal of em que ele sales job getting that funded is an SQL and thereare actually two different funnels and when we're in a perfect spot wherewe're able to make decisions based on data, we've got a clear data picturefrom the first time you ever touch my brand the first time you ever touch andadd to the point where you've taken that marketing qualified conversion andthen if I'm really on top of my game, I'm using email automation, I'm usingthe other piece of the puzzle to get from a marketing Qualified lead to asales Qualified lead. You get that whole front end of your businessmeasured in that way and you're going to know what's working and what's not.That's a fantastic point that you make because you know, we can come back tosome of the research that came out of the four knees group a few years ago,80 85% of ceos don't trust marketers because they look at the soft vanitymetrics, they look at the soft numbers, not the bottom line. And so to yourdistinction, you know, you have marketing on one side of the equation,you have cells and the other. I think if we can start bringing those teamstogether within an organization and we can do away with these these silos Thatbecomes the growth team. And I would say that's like that's growth teamiteration. # one marketing's job is to...

...control the brand, the messaging theperception in the marketplace and just drive leads em que ele marketingQualified leads, technology has transformed our world and digital haschanged the way consumers shop for and buy financial services forever. Nowconsumers make purchase decisions long before they walk into a branch if theywalk into a branch at all, but your financial brand still wants to growloans and deposits, we get it. Digital growth can feel confusing, frustratingand overwhelming for any financial brand, marketing and sales leader, butit doesn't have to because James robert wrote the book that guides you everystep of the way along your digital growth journey visit www dot digitalgrowth dot com to get a preview of his best selling book banking on digitalgrowth or order a copy right now for you and your team from amazon inside,you'll find a strategic marketing manifesto that was written to transformfinancial brands and it is packed full of practical and proven insights. Youcan start using today to confidently generate 10 times more loans anddeposits now back to the show that then gets passed over to cells to thenurture those leads. Because that's where data analytics in the financialservices space gets really, really messy because it's not just a directpoint A to point B. It's not just from marketing to cells. In fact, what we'vefound through our experience in coaching is the faster that anorganization can get a marketing qualified lead in touch with asalesperson. Whether that be over the phone, online chat, email in persondoesn't matter. There's a higher propensity in conversion regardless ofif that conversion is online or offline. Take that to the next level though.That's like I said, that's the growth team version one. Growth team versiontwo. Now you bring the service team in and then you can get into some deeperconversations around like what's your retention rate. What's your Nps, what'syour voice of the customer And now you're literally looking at all threeof these different lenses because marketing control the message generatesleads cells. Nurtures leads closes leads. Service retains all of thatgrows the account and they can activate promoters on the other side and you'vegot this beautiful experience. But you've got to get these foundationalbenchmarks in place first so that you know what's working, what's not workingand just really get some clarity. Where would you say the biggest opportunityis here? I know one of the areas that you focus on is C. R. O. Or conversionrate optimization. What is that for the dear listener who might not be aware ofthat terminology? Yeah, conversion rate optimization is all about testing,evaluating using data to improve our conversion rate. Okay, we come back youmean higher level to pure optimization though. And I actually think this isthe most important conversation again, I'm always thinking about that. Theyreally hung on what you said there, James robert about Ceo is don't trustmarketing people like it's as a marketing guy. It's not totally fair.But they don't trust the data completely fair. What the most, one ofthe most important conversations that we're having. I wanna hop on your pointhere real fast though. This is not, you know, pointing blame once again atmarketers like I'm very empathetic. I mean, you know, come up through themarketing world and and and now working at a higher level like with seniorleadership teams to try to bring a unified voice. So I fill the marketerspain on this. Why is this? I think we have to address the why there's a lotof history that gets built up into this. Going back to the early days ofmarketing, particularly in banking, for...

...example, when marketing was like tvradio, print, direct mail, it was almost impossible to quantify any ofthese activities hits, why marketing specifically within financial serviceshas always been viewed as a cost center where I look at the future of this as arevenue center because back to your point, optimization is key figuring outwhat works, what does it do more of what work? Stop doing what doesn't work,continue with your thought please. Yes, because optimization, it does startwith better data as we've talked about. But the most important conversationgoing on right now is about having the right philosophies that guide us sothat we're understanding how to evaluate whether it's differentchannels like traditional versus digital advertising or different ads,different creative concepts, different messaging. So two of the most importantconversation or two pieces of this very important conversation, we're having totry to bring teams together. One is fulfilling the customer journey and youtalked about it in the different teams and their roles. The customer journeythat we use to organize so much of our thinking from marketing outward isawareness that first touch point building familiarity, moving someonetowards consideration and then conversion where our sales team kicksin and then you talk about loyalty. That ending point where service andsupport kick in where we can really get the end of the customer journey andstart building brand loyalty. The customer journey leads to an importantconversation that is about google calls it attribution modeling. We think aboutit as understanding the relation that different marketing channels andtactics have to one another a problem that we have working with credit unions.I always bring us back to getting a new member, right? We want to get a newmember. This is a well researched and the long customer doing it is notrealistic and we were trained at some point to go look at our adwordsreporting and come back and say did it drive a conversion? Well somebodyclicking on an adwords ad for any type of loan that you want to name and thenbecoming a member of your credit union and a hop is not a very realisticcustomer journey. That's a great point because once again we need to talkabout why why this has been the perspective for so long. It's thedirect marketing world. I do a I send out direct mel people then walk into mybranch so that must be attributed back to a direct mail drop within three mileradius of my branches. Therefore, I can conclude this direct mail drop wassuccessful. Not realistic, But when you're talking about this, they arelong buying journeys depending upon the product 369, sometimes 12, even upwardsof 18 months. Unlike some of the small business commercial side of things. Weneed to look at a longer tell attribution model and a multi touchattribution model of all of the different channels that influence andguide a buyer's decision back to the previous point that we were talkingabout to help build their confidence by providing clarity because when thatlevel of confidence, that level of trust, it's a certain point, we makeenough deposits in their trust fund that sits between their brains. That'swhen they click the apply button and so we need to be able to get some clarity.What are all of those those patterns if you will throughout this entire journey,if we start with better data and we can start applying some of these reallyimportant concepts in our conversations, we understand attribution modeling, wedocument, we make decisions based on the customer journey. That's wherewe're going to find optimization opportunities because if we're lookingat ways to just optimize one channel or evaluate one type of marketing on itsown, we're not putting ourselves in the shoes of our customers. They're goingto go through multi touch point multi...

...channel journeys on their way toconversion and we have to give every piece of the puzzle. It's credit. Wehave to be organized that way and then we have to bring back our reporting inthat way as well. Don't train our ceo to say adwords or facebook advertisingor direct mail is good or bad if it led directly to a conversion, I recommendgoing back to episode 1 12 where I provide some perspective into fourtypes of attribution models to measure conversion to measure acquisition. Justto continue to expand your thinking further on the subject. I want to comeback to you on this kevin, you know, looking at all of this and I would sayit's almost building a what I would call a culture of optimization. I teachfour different Environments growth environments as part of a 90 day growthmethodology. You can be learning, you can be thinking you can be doing or youcould be reviewing and the most dangerous place to get stuck and reallykind of the deadly place to get stuck is in the doing of anything in thisparticular case the doing of digital. And so when you're looking to create aculture of optimization, it's about creating space and time to pause toreview, to reflect what has been done to then learn from those experiences togain and gather the key insights. Think critically about those key insights andthen apply that thinking to the next iteration of doing what are theopportunities here? And maybe I'll flip it around that opportunities because Iwould say there's probably more roadblocks that we need to address.What are the roadblocks that you're seeing when it comes to facilitating aculture of optimization. Not just within marketing but I would saymarketing cells service leadership. Even What are your thoughts on this?Great question. I'll give you three. Okay, number one, I'm a broken record.It's bad data. If the data is wrong and it probably is, we're not going to getthis conversation off the ground. If you don't trust the day, you'll nevermake decisions on it. So that is number one with a bullet and that's not justthat can't be siloed again talking about different teams of themselves. Wehave to have a collaborative exercise to get the data right now. I'm gonna gotoo deep on this right now. But the marketing department can't be tellingeverybody what good data is. It's got to be a collaborative effort where youmake sure you don't miss anything and you make sure everyone on the same pageOnce you get the data right. # two, a really important piece is getting oursales and marketing data in the same place that em que ele two SQLconversation. It gets lost in translation a lot because we'reactually looking at different screens. We have sales people looking at salesnumbers and saying the marketing data doesn't make any sense. And themarketing people not looking at the sales data and they're saying, wellthat doesn't matter. You don't understand what we're doing over here.We've got to get those two things into the same place and that leads to numberthree when we're really talking about influencing this from a decision makingstandpoint now that you say culture of optimization. We talked about makingdecisions based on data. Same thing it leads to optimizations is you've got toget to the therefore pieces we have to get out of this culture of reporting ofI'm going to give you vanity metrics, I'm going to give you the numbers tomake what I'm doing look good. We have to get away from that at all levels andstart to say what is the opportunity? What is the challenge and what is thedecision that we have to make here as a team? And that's really the top of thefood chain, get the data right, get it all the data into the same place. Sowe're not looking at different screens and then get out of reporting and getinto the Air Force. There's a great meme on this and I want to frame itaround Lagos. So data is like ones and zeros. And if you think about Lagos andI think about, my kids are a little bit older than years. Data is like legosjust scattered all across the floor,...

Right? And they hurt. It hurts when youstep on a lego So what do we get? We get data and then we get analyticsanalytics is where you start getting into grouping and sorting maybe it's bycolor with the lego maybe it's by size. So that's your analytics because thenyou can get some visualization out of it, we can kind of determine like howthings are going. But I would say the next level up insights insights iswhere now you're able to build something together to pull it all intouh something that's easy to understand. So you take the Lagos that arescattered on the floor, that's your data, you bring it all together, that'syour analytics now, that's all sorted. And then you can build something andit's like ah that's a house. So now I know what this actually means. And fromthere, the last step is you got to take action, you got to put it in to action.And I think that's where this idea of a culture of optimization really comestogether because otherwise like you said like this idea of just reportingfor reporting sake, that's great. But it's like that's great. Now here's whatwe can do with it and making a commitment to do this at leastquarterly, build that capability, build those habits up and then maybe you doit every other month and then you go get even better and then you can do itmonthly and then you get even better and then you're doing this every singleweek as part of an optimization opportunity and somebody can take awaythe work great example for you right on that line of thinking is we've hadconversations before, I know about the efficiency solutions in our sector thatinfluences or takes away from user experience. So getting to insights, wehave bad data on so many of our online platforms in the sector because thesethird party apps, so I'm working with a client and they've got a screen wherethey've got the like right off the homepage. One of the main user pathsget to this like complex my name product or a new credit card. I'm justusing a credit card for an easy example. Not everybody exactly understands thatby a critic. So you click on this, I want to credit card terrific. We gotthe right person there. They need a credit card there on our site. Theytook the user path we wanted to take them from our homepage asks me aquestion at the start, good segment to me Am I a member and might not remember.I click I'm not a member. It takes me to a gigantic form. Yes, they have tobecome a member before they apply for the credit card. Right? I'm like Okay,not a great user experience. That's like a 26 field form you need me tofill out let me go. The other way I am a member sends me to a gigantic form.So what happened here is we don't have the data when somebody clicked ontothat form and we jumped off the website. The user path that we see in analectsdied. Usually that something has to get fixed. But getting into the insightsportion, get the data fixed up, get everybody looking at the same things,you might have a sales person saying well I need that form filled out thetype of insight you're going to get to is looking at the actual behaviors thatyou're driving there, how many people finished that form? How many peoplewould have just picked up the phone and talk to that salesperson who would havehelped you fill out that form if you would have given them that option. Andit's the type of insight, a simple test you'll get to if you get the data andyou get people working together in that way. You know that's a great point.You're making some recent research that we have uh comes out of a companycalled Heap where they found that 43% of consumers believe that the majorityof websites are not designed around the needs of the end user. On the flip side,95% of product teams say that their website is somewhat easy or even veryeasy for users to navigate. This is one...

...of the reasons that we do Qualitativedigital secret shopping studies and back to the point of the form. Like youcan get really granule in the quantitative side. The big dataqualitative is the thick data where we're focusing expertise is but thenyou can get quantitative to to see where the friction points are. Whereare you losing 80 in this workflow back to your point to about like wouldsomeone be willing to talk to someone, You know, when it comes to the mortgageside of things, 92% of bowers buy from someone buy from one of the first tolenders that they speak with on the phone. However, our research has foundthat only 17% of banks and creditors are actively following up withabandoned applications. So put that another way, 83% of banks and creditlines do not follow up with abandoned applications. Fix this one littleproblem right here, don't do anything else. Don't do any other type ofmarketing. Just fix this one little problem. And you're gonna exponentiallyincrease growth by capturing what you're already losing at the bottomline. Let me ask, you know, this has been a great conversation kevin and Ireally appreciate all of the knowledge expertise that you've brought to beartoday. What are you most hopeful and excited about when it comes toutilizing data to empower financial brands to maximize their future digitalgrowth potential When I'm most excited about, is that moving Over the last 19months where the world's gone? That I'm hopeful we're going to get to a placewhere we really believe the entire customer journey for our customers orpotential customers is rooted in data that we can get out of this idea of.Well, they're just going to walk in the branch and that's not trackable andthey're going to take that piece of direct mail and walk into the branchand that's not trackable, it's the user path. And even if that is ourconversion point and we want to get them into the branch, which is terrific.We want them to pick up the phone, we want them working with our people. Yes,we do. But there's so much data on the way there that I'm really hopeful thatin the future we're going to start to clean up some of the like I'll call themistakes, technology mistakes that have been made in the industry forefficiency solutions sake. And we're going to get back to the userexperience if we're going to get back to offering customers and potentialcustomers the type of outcomes that they want. You know, I want to helpbuying this complex financial product that I believe that if we get into thedata, we get better data. We get our teams working together to get all thedata in the same place. But we're going to get to a point of insights that'sgoing to bring us back to empathy and bring us back to a place where we'rethinking about our customers or potential customers first. Great point.I want to make a little bit of a technical side on this. But youmentioned this idea of calling in, it is possible now the loop call trackingdata into this entire experience. And I think that's a major blind spot becausewe do know that people call in but who are they calling in? What products arethey calling in for? So that's a small technical aside let's wrap up with thisvery very practical next step where can people get started? Like you know allgrowth all progress begins with a very simple step. What's the simple stepthat you would recommend the dear listener take as they move forwardaround data as part of their digital growth journey, what's something smallthey can commit to and the number one thing I can tell you to do is there isno time too soon to start getting better data. So work with someone don'ttry to do it yourself because you're not behind the april. Don't be do notfear what you're going to see in the data. We do not dismiss data because wedon't want to see what it has to say, take the inputs, take the insights,work with someone to help you get...

...better data and there's no time to soon.So get into your analytics account, your google analytics account, look atyour conversion goals, look at the outcomes, Go back to that number thanme and you talked about start here James robert, see if you're closer to2% or 1.5% conversion rate, we're 10% And if you're near 10% don't thinkyou're doing well pick up the phone and get them out If you're around 1.5 for2%. Ask yourself if you believe those numbers, if you're see always gonnabelieve those numbers and then if you have all the data in place to have theright conversations with your sales team that everyone's going to see thatthe same way that everyone is going to believe in it. The number one thing youcan do leaving today is don't be afraid of the day to start working on gettingbetter data into your marketing team. Then you can get your sales teaminvolved. Then you can get your ceo involved and you can start to make realchange about the way that your culture and the way your company can makedecisions based on data. Absolutely kevin, this has been such, such a greatconversation, a lot of fun. What's the best way that someone who is listeningcan continue the conversation with you if they'd like to how can they connect?I appreciate it man, metric marketing dot C A is our website. You're going tosee my contact information right on there, feel free to reach out to mepersonally or hit info at metric marketing dot C. And you'll get me Ipromise connect with Kevin learned from Kevin, kevin. Thanks so much forjoining me on another episode of banking on digital growth. Thank you somuch James as always and until next time be well do good and make your bed.Mhm Thank you for listening to another episode of banking on digital growthWith James robert. Ley like what you hear, tell a friend about the podcastand leave us a review on apple podcast, google podcasts or Spotify andsubscribe. While you're there to get even more practical improvementinsights, visit www. Dot digital growth dot com to grab a preview of Jamesroberts, bestselling book banking on digital growth Or order a copy rightnow for you and your team from Amazon inside you'll find a strategicmarketing and sales blueprint framed around 12 key areas of focus thatempower you to confidently generate 10 times more loans and deposits untilnext time, be well and do good.

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