Banking on Digital Growth
Banking on Digital Growth

Episode · 3 months ago

221) #ExponentialInsights: The Secret Sauce for Data and Analytics Conversions

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

As Google’s Universal Analytics (UA) rides into the sunset, a lot of questions are swirling around the future of data and analytics.

With Google Analytics 4, several features from UA will be going away.

Jeff Sauer, Founder of Data Driven U, argues that marketing teams should look at this conversion as a fresh start for measuring their KPIs.

Join us as we discuss:

- Where financial brands fall short in optimizing data and analytics (4:48)

- Opportunities for automating data and analytics collection (20:02)

- Starting SMALL in data collection and reporting (27:24)

Check out these resources we mentioned during the podcast:

- Jeff Sauer

- Data Driven U

- Jeffalytics

You can find this interview and many more by subscribing to Banking on Digital Growth on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, or here.

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for Banking on Digital Growth in your favorite podcast player.

So if you treat marketing like it's an expense, then it's always going to be justifying what you do. Versus you look at it as we're on the offensive here. The more marketing we get, the better we're gonna get. Then you change the conversation entirely to like how much marketing can we put out there? You're listening to banking on digital growth with James Robert Lay, a podcast that empowers financial brand marketing, sales and leadership teams to maximize their digital growth potential by generating ten times more loans and deposits. Today's episode is part of the exponential insight series, where James Robert Lay interviews the industry's top marketing, sales and FINTECH leaders, sharing practical wisdom to exponentially elevate you and your team. Let's get into the show. Greetings in Hello, I am James Robert Lay, and welcome to episode to twenty one of the banking on digital growth podcast. Best today's episode is part of the exponential insight series and I'm excited to welcome Jeff Sour to the show. Jeff is the founder of data driven you and he holds a firm belief in data driven marketing. In fact, Jeff has developed a world class marketing curriculum that has taught in universities, and he's also delivered over one hundred keynote speeches in twenty plus countries, while empowering more than fourteen thousand digital marketers to become Google certified professionals through his in person and online training programs. And today Jeff and I are going to be talking about how financial brands and Fintechs can overcome the biggest data and analytics roadblocks standing in their way so that they can gain clarity into the greatest opportunities available for you, the dear listener, to maximize your future digital growth potential. Welcome to the show, Jeff. It is so good to share time with you today, Buddy. Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm really excited before we get into talking data and analytics and you know, some really huge growth opportunities that I see for financial brands and for fin techs. What is good for you right now, personally or professionally? It's your pick. Yeah, so right now, professionally, I'm drinking from the fire hose it is Google analytics for and just exploring it, learning about it, and teaching the world about it. And then, personally, I am about to go on a trip back to my native Minnesota and spend some summertime in Minnesota and boats and at the State Fair. So I I love it, you know, and and the idea of Google analytics for it's it's almost like every time they make an update there's something new to learn. But which is why I appreciate what you're doing, because it's like Oregon Trell. You're out on the leading front, you're learning what's going on and then to be able to transfer that knowledge back into help people shortcut their learnings reduce the complexity, which is exactly what we're gonna be talking about today. I know one of the maxims that that you speak of frequently when it comes to data and analytics is set it and forget it. What do you mean by this? Because I want to start here and use this as a reference point for context before we dive even further. Let's start with set it and forget it. What does that mean and what's the opportunity? Set it and forget it? Was the original appeal to a tool like Google analytics, where you could put some code on your site, set it up and then never look at it again. But then if you run a campaign or you do some marketing, you can look at the data and say, okay, well, what happened there? How much? How did our organic search perform? How did our paid search perform? How did email marketing perform? And so the original idea was set it and forget it, but I quickly learned that Um set it and forget it needed more of an active characteristic to it. So actually I started to at first say set it and forget it with your analysts and I started to say don't set it and forget it, set it, configure it, make sure that it makes sense and then when it comes back to it's gonna be a lot more meaningful for you. So I started out, and and Google started out with the set it and forge it and we've actually quickly moved over to set...

...it up properly and then you can come back to this thing over and over again to know how your campaigns performed. And so I setn't forget. It's the promise, but the reality is that there's a little bit more work that you need to do in order to get this thing to be meaningful for you. But that work pays off in the in the form of more efficient marketing campaigns, spending less money on ad platforms, spending less money creating something that's probably not going to work anyway, and more time on okay, well, what worked and how do we get more of it? Set It, optimize it, forget it. Would that maybe like it's the optimization. We get into this and we don't know what we don't know until we know it. We can use that data, that those insights to optimize it and then be even better going forward. And it's that idea of being even better going forward. I know a lot of financial brands and fintechs. They've dabbled in Google analytics. Um, we look at some of their their installs and see major rooms for growth and optimization. But what are they missing? Um, where? Where do you see organizations falling short at a macro level? And, I think, more importantly, what are they losing because they haven't done proper either installs or even optimizations to get the value out of data and analytics? Yeah, I think that whole set and forget it mentality makes it make us think that we can launch something anything, we can do marketing and that will know the answers without having to do much. Right, we think that it's going to be there and what ends up missing is that if you don't think about how you're going to measure something from the beginning, or if you don't think about what your KPI for success is going to be, then you end up doing marketing and yet you don't know if you're successful or not, and so it can be very frustrating, especially in a regulated industry right or in something where there is more regulations, where you have to be more considered of who you're talking to. We need to be more thoughtful of it. A lot of times what ends up happening is you you go through all these different checks and balances just to even get your marketing out in the first place, and yet when it comes time to measure, you don't really know if it was successful or not because maybe you don't know how many leads you generated from it. You don't really know, Um, what your sales cycle cycle looks like. Maybe maybe you're generating leads to go to a sales team and they don't communicate with each other right. So a lot of the problems that end up happening aren't so much that they're not tracking something that they're either tracking the wrong things or they don't have realistic expectations of what that tracking will do for the rest of the business. and that's really where tying it together is the important piece here. I like the idea of a realistic expectations and then be ensuring that we're tracking the right things. I see a lot of times in financial services um the challenge being, you know, we have Google analytics installed on a corporate website, but when it comes to an application Um, whether it be depository or loan or mortgage, you go off of the third party site and then, unless the scripting is set up properly and you have to work with that Third Party organization to facilitate that, which they're not always very friendly, and then that makes me wonder, well, what are you actually hiding on your end Um? If you don't want to help, be a part of the solution, then you're probably a part of the problem when it comes to those challenges which I see a lot of the Times. That is the greatest challenge. What your recommendation there for the dear listener, because it's a question that we get often. I want to get your take. How do we? How do we solve that problem? Because they might be tracking clicks on a C T A, but I'm like that's only one part of the equation because we then know that sometimes on loan applications or abandoned. So we can just, you know, throw that percentage into that and it's it's a rough estimization, estimation, estimation. But and then there's the pository at six, six five percent abandoned. What's your take on solving this gap?...

Yeah, I think I think that's it's funny, it's it's not necessarily a technology problem, but it's a more of a Um, a human problem, and that is what what what line of thinking are you going into the marketing? Is it faith, is a percent faith, which is really analog world, or proof, which is the digital metrics driven world? Right, Um, we like to think that in a digital world. This is what Google touts and their all their their mechanisms for all their marketing and this is what facebook says. You can have a hundred percent proof that you're working, you can have your your turn on your ads and you can have all this information available to you and we know that it works. But anybody who's done this for a while realizes that there's actually the proof is usually not telling the full story. Like it can tell you somebody drops off an application, but it doesn't really tell the human story. And so I think there is an aspect of faith slash analog that gets us to the fact these are real human beings who are using our website. These are real people who are filling out an application who might be dropping off. These people are targeted with an ad. So I like to try to think about it in terms of how do we get a complete picture of what's happening here? How do we tell a story of what's happening, and then does each step fit into a logical reason why that person would have left or that story right? So somebody is seeing a facebook ad, the one that you got. Were able to get approved, that everybody, you know, all the different regulators went through. Then they go through to a landing page. Is that landing page you know, or do you have a form that's forced on you by your software provider, that is a third party? Does that make sense and are you tracking it? and sort of like the cool thing the metrics can do. It's not going to give you an absolute number, but it can sort of piece in together the gap of the darkness in between the beginning and the end right and that's why I love analytics, because it's it's not so much of there is a there's a solution, it's a conversion, it's more of what happens between concept and conversion. In the first place, I like the idea of this shining a light into the darkness, helping to make the unaware aware of what's going on Um, which is one of the reasons if you take this third part, the application, which has a completely different U R L, and you actually install a form on your primary domain, that will help you get some additional perspective into what's happening before going off to third party Um. And there's ways to close that gap. It's a bit more technical, as we both know, and I don't want to, you know, go too deep into that today's conversation, but I'm curious. Are there any other roadblocks that the dear listener needs to be aware of when it comes to data analytics tracking that could be potentially holding them back before we switch and look at at some possible opportunities going forward? Yeah, sure, so. I think the roadblocks are often that it does require some kind of code placed on your website or some kind of forethought and planning. So again, going back to the beginning, said it and forget it would be you put pieces of code in your site, never look at it again. Then you say, how did my campaign perform? And that my tell you that a thousand people went to your application page and that's it. That's all you know. Right. You know that a hundred, ten thousand people saw the AD thousand one of the application page, but you don't know how many of them more forms. And then you have to go into your third party system and say, okay, well, we got a hundred applications, so we think that we're successful here. Right, that's a set it and forget it. But if you were to put some code on your site, you would be able to track even down to an individual form field level. You could. You could track that, you could track how many people are on form field one versus form field two and all the way down and you can get a true funnel experience and you can see where you have leaks in your process. Now the problem ends up being that that is technical, that requires a consultants implement that. It might not be the cheapest thing in the world to do and it requires some planning. Right. So set it and forget it. Is Is v one, which is something is better than nothing. It is taking advantage of the digital medium. But then the next step is actively paying attention to it and and seeing how something performed. Now there's a lot of reasons to do that. There's...

...millions and millions of dollars worth of reasons to do that. If you're doing if you have an application funnel that you're feeding over the time, over the course of years, right, then you just keep on going forward with it and making that and improving that. But if you're doing a one off campaign, usually it's not worthwhile. Or if you look at this thing is like hey, I just want to track this thing right now for tomorrow's campaign, you're too late. Right. So I think the more the more time you spend planning, the less overwhelming the coding piece of it seems, the more you can find a consultants and the more you can prove the value of this thing is a long term position. Now that an example in the in the real world is Amazon. Like Amazon has a really high conversion rate. If somebody has Amazon Prime, I think that it's in the sixty percent of the time a prime user that goes on Amazon buys something. Now, they didn't start out with a sixty percent conversion, right. They might have started out with one percent and they keep on making these five percent improvements, but they compounded it over twenty years to the point where they've optimized what's going on here. Right. So if you look at a long timeline, probably will never be at six like Amazon, but you could be at instead of ten percent, you could be at twenty if you keep on making five improvements over time. Right. So the course of a year you could double your response right, which ultimately means that you have twice of effective media, you have twice as effective marketing and twice as many people coming into your opportunity list, right, and that that's super valuable. So, short term timeline, we give up because we meet some resistance and we don't know where it fits in the timeline. Long term, if we do persist, you'll have out, you'll you'll I'll perform anybody else because nobody else does it. I like the idea of optimizing, optimizing optimized. I mean that's the whole essence of C R O conversion rate optimization. They are these micro winds that, over an extended period of time, create really exponential value. And when you think about financial services, I think a lot of times marketers incorrectly tell the wrong story, and what I mean by that is, Um, they're like, okay, you know, I'm a user. Example, we ten thousand people see this ad and then we had a thousand people click through and then we had a hundred people convert and kind of taking the funnel down piece by piece, Um, and then out of that hundred that started the application process, fifteen converted because we had to fall off and all of the abandonment happening right there. Digital growth is a journey from good to great, but sometimes this journey can feel confusing, frustrating and overwhelming. The good news is you don't have to take this journey alone, because now you can join a community of growth minded marketing and sales leaders from financial brands and fin techs who are all learning, collaborating and growing together. VISIT DIGITAL GROWTH DOT com slash insider to learn more about how you can join the digital growth insider community to maximize your future digital growth potential. Now back to the show, but if you were able to and then they're like, oh well, you know, we lost. They're even about loss. And the reason I like to dig into the loss because that is really what encourages people to take action, whether they're on the lending side or they're at the senior management level, to get more funding into some of these initiatives, because they're like, oh my gosh, we lost eighty five opportunities this month because of a bad process or something like this, and that's a great way to start, but when you start attaching, you know, revenue to that, and let's just say each opportunity, you know, the average lifetime value was a thousand dollars. Well, now we lost eighty five thousand dollars because of this and over the course of the year. That's a million dollar problem right there. And people people begin to say, instead of thinking, Oh, we lost, you know, a thousand opportunities over the course of a year, no, we lost a million dollars. That that pain hurts far worse for people to take action too, because then you're like, okay, well, we're gonna take this and we're gonna go from maybe fifteen conversions um conversion rate and we're gonna up that into just the five.

Well, over the course of a year, once again, a thousand dollars over the lifetime value. That's sixty dollars. You know it's and it's just the numbers. It's the math game and I like the storytelling that goes on behind here because it's and I think that's the way we should look at this, is the long play, small winds compounding over time. But something else that I want to connect the dot for for the dear listener is time. We can't wait until the last minute to do this. So let's circle back on that point. Let's come back to the point of planning and pre planning, because I see so many times it's like marketing teams in financial services. There they're running last minute. Um, they're getting a request from lending or from the depository side saying we need deposits, we need loans and we gotta get this campaign out like next week, and so they don't even have time to really think through it. They're always reacting instead of responding, which is very danger is placed to be number one. But how might we be able to proactively think out some of this into more of a repeatable framework that, regardless of the campaign, we at least have the ingredients to cook with on the shelf. Yeah, I love it. So I think that really there's two, two things I can think of that that we put into practice, even at my own company. That are that will give you the twenty of measurement and that is, uh, making sure that all your traffic is properly tagged, that Google analytics recognizes it, you know, using campaign term, U T M S, right, they've been around for a long time, campaign code, what source it came from and so on. So whenever we send somebody an email, for example, we have an automatic field that appends those U R L s without having to do it. So taking somebody who's not technical creating a formula and a spreadsheet where it automatically adds that to the U R L, so they don't have to do any work. Right. So there's a million of these trackers out there that it could be all the U T M builder, campaign tracker, there's there's softwares of service, there's templates, they're very easy to find, and there's also the Google one that's free and you just put your U R on there, you say what sources and they'll just build it for you. So building a U R L anytime you send out traffic absolutely non negotiable. Baking it into your process if you have any project planning and so on. That's that's something to do. You do it once and then every other time it should be a lot easier and it becomes second nature for the company to do that. So that's that's on the front end. That's anything you drive to your site, make sure you do the U T M S and track them. And then on the back end or on on the on the measurement side, it's setting up a conversion, a generic conversion or a pattern based conversion. So anytime that somebody visits like a thank you page, that that as long as that they visit a thank you page, it's counted as something. So you can track that and then you can then you just put two and two together. You say this is the campaign that we've created, this is the this is the conversion page, here's our conversion rate for that campaign. Um, those things are just make it so much easier and honestly, that might even be more than that might be. Um, you know that. That's that's really how important it is to know those two things. How they got here and what they did when they are on your site and the rest. You can fill in a lot of the blanks or you don't. You know you can plan more in advance, but if you don't have those two metrics then you won't really know what is the room for improvement. I can think about a lot of financial brands that we've coached and advised over the years Um to get them out of the last minute campaign emergency mode and into the proactive planning of building essentially inventory Um of assets that they can pull off the shelf whenever they have a need coming from different departments. Because if you think about financial services, you have three to five key products and you have a couple of different ways to drive that. You have the organic side, which is you know someone you know shopping and coming into the website, or you have more of the campaign...

...approach. You're trying to increase traffic. You know, bought, earned Um. A lot of different ways to do that and that's where I think you have kind of the Evergreen campaign to I can think of one organization in my mind that has been in our program for about five or six years. They have they get out of the emergency mode into the asset campaign mode and they're able to go back now and look historically. We're five years worth of data, and see the progression. And every single year they pull the campaign off the shelf, they make some small optimizations based upon what they learned the year before and they continuously are increasing the value with very minimal time spin. And I think that's the other important because one of the big complaints I hear from marketing teams, particularly on the subject of data and analytics, is the lack of time. Yeah, what about automation? Because I'm a big believer, you know, learning from izzy Sharp, founder of the Four Seasons Hotel. Um, where you can systemized, systematize the predictable so that we can humanize the exceptional. We automate the predictable to humanize the exceptional. Where are the opportunities to automate data and analytics to gain back some time so that we can spend more time thinking and not worrying about all of the complexity of doing yeah, so automation. It can work in so many different ways and we're actually at a point now where things are shifting. Um, there's a lot of software that would automate things you did with analytics with the Universal Google analytics. Now we have g a four, which is new and people are still learning. So there's not as many automation capabilities with third parties, but there are quite a bit of things within within Google ads. And so just some ideas around automating is it's very easy to set up reports that either automatically show up or that that you have a template that you can feed in. And so, for example, if you I like what you're saying about doing annual campaigns, right, most people can't even get past that. They're like, well, if we do this, if we don't do this year, then I won't be here next year, right, or that I won't be for the next one. Right. So there's not it's a very short term point of view. But if you're doing a campaign every year, which we do at at data driven, then we we have a dashboard and all we need to do is we change one campaign, I d, and all of our stuff gets updated. So so reporting for us is pretty straightforward. We set up a campaign, we set up something, we have a single campaign, I d, and then we just filter the report on that and then we have next year's report done. We automate that and that saves, you know, at least a week of time with pulling things together and fiddling with stuff. Right. So if you're doing this over and over again, you set up a dashboard once, you create a filter and you just up and it's up to date the next time. And doesn't have to be a sophisticated, our skilled person that does it. You just follow a checklist. Right. Um, we've also we we've created a series of checklist for how to just get everything done properly. Right. So we've automated through s ops. So, like you were talking about, Four Seasons, we've created processes. We have over a hundred of them now in our library at at data driven, you dot com. That allows you to just pull it off the shelf, check the box and then somebody can install those things and then, you know, a lot of automations. There's stuff around data collection at it, enhancing your data collection. So one of the concepts behind Google analytics as events, and that's things that happened within within a page. Right, so you could automate the collection of people hitting the play button on a video, the Stop Button, the fast forward button, that they completed it. You can automate that tracking right, you can automate Um, when clicking, when somebody clicks on an external link or when they click on a download button on your page, you can automate that. So you can automate a lot of the collection mechanisms of the data. Then you can automate the reporting and if you have that right, and then everything in between is really just analysis. I think that, you know, when I first started teaching this stuff, when I first started doing analytics, it was seventy five technical time spent configuring and at the remaining time was analyzing. Now I think that we have the tools with automation...

...to do eighty percent plus analyzing and and the rest of it, the remaining time, is on the technical piece, and so it's completely flipped as to how we can spend our time because of automation. Listen to that again, and I'm gonna pull this back. Can you can you just say that one more time, because I have a big hypothesis over this decade. But what we're starting to see this play out and you're kind of bleeding edge here, but let's roll that back. Can you repeat what it was to what it is now? Yeah, so, when I first started with Google Ales, when I started teaching it, of my time was spent on here's how you need to technically put stuff in there to configure it out of it. Yeah, yeah, the doing and the thoughtfulness of the of that, and then of my time was analyzing, actually making sense of that data I collected. Exactly. Yeah, like saying here's what, here's like reporting or telling my company how it did and telling my company here's where we should get more of giving them insights. Right now. It's now, it's completely flipped. It's eight of your time is insights time configuring, and that's only going to get better and better. As Google analytics four has introduced machine learning, AI, predictive modeling, predictive analytics. They're starting to they have reports that are that are just getting started and they're not like cutting there, there on the leading edge, but they're not. They're not like Um, they're not as good as they're gonna be in right, but they will predict somebody's upcoming behavior. If somebody, if somebody's on your e commerce site buying all the time, or if they're coming in, they're they're downloading every one of your financial service packages, they're gonna be able to predict when they're gonna do it next. They're gonna be able to predict behavior and and they use the same models they use in the Google ad system. So a lot of the same predictive modeling they're using. An ads they're using to sort of take your analytics data and predict what that person is going to do next. Now, obviously, any well, maybe not obviously, actually, I shouldn't say obviously. It's not obvious. But any data mining, any data modeling, requires a lot of food. It requires a lot of data coming in in order to get these insights out right. So if you're if you have three financial packages and you have a hundred customers, you're probably not going to get as good of a prediction model as Amazon would or as like an e commerce store that has a repeatable purchase right, but that's the concept behind it. Well, I wanted to repeat that because as I'm writing my second book, which is titled Banking on Change, subtitle how to maximize exponential growth in the age of AI. It really works through what I call the four seasons of exponential growth. Learn, think, do, review and where historically, a lot of us we've over indexed on whatever it is that we do we we are doers essentially, and we get addicted to doing the AI and the automation are going to really that's the out of those four seasons, the A and the automation has probably the greatest potential for disruption there. So if you attach, I know we're gonna get a little psychologically here, but if you attach your identity, even your self self worth to what you do, Um, I think it's a very dangerous place over the next decade. And because when you have ai and automation to do the quote unquote dirty work, that's a huge opportunity to gain back a lot of time to review, to learn and then to think so that we can then do even better going forward. Um. And I think that's where there's just a lot of complexity, because it's like we just don't understand that. That's why I'm a big believer we need to probably have some philosophical conversations on this front too, to help people navigate this in their own minds to see clearly, because I want to roll this back. One of the things that you were talking about. We got really grandler was was around like, you know, tracking start and stop on video. Um, I get it. I understand it, but for a lot of financial brands I think that is just too overwhelming to try to put into their overall data mix.

If you were to prioritize Um, what, where to begin? What would your prioritization list be? Thinking about just the funnel? So I created this idea called small data uh in order to explain exactly that, and that is, how do you do the minimum amount of data collection and the minimumount of reporting needed for where your company is at and where Your Business is at right now and the size of Your Marketing Department? And so it goes small, it goes Solo, Micro Agile, leveraged and leading edge, and and each one of those things has um. The last L is a huge department with lots of people, and then the Solo is just you. It's as you right. And so for each of these different phases, I love acronyms because that's how this, a d d mind, remembers things. So if you can just repeat that again, what Solo, Micro Agile, leveraged and leading edge? So a lot of times people come to me and they say, well, I see that. You know, I used Amazon an example, or they're like hey, should I be studying data science and should I be learning programming languages in order to do things? And it's like those are leading edge technologies. You can probably get by without worrying about that. When you're a solo practitioner, there's one metric and one KPI that matters, and that's your bank account. That's the only KPI that matters for you. Right when you're micro, when it's you and another person or a very small team, there's two kpis you need to worry about. One is how many people are seeing your message in the first place, awareness, and the bottom one is bank account. Again, bank accounts important for everybody rights essentially. Yeah, yeah, conversions, right, exactly. And then and then agile means you have a little bit more of your growing the team and you're starting to make some better decisions and you're starting to have more resources. Then you can go into a more of a full funnel awareness to sales. So it's four steps, AI, D A, or I call it a c s Um, and then the further you get along, you might hire consultants. That's the leverage. You're leveraging other people. You're leveraging single level expertise, people, specialists, if you will, and then leading edges where you get even more experimental. You're starting to figure out what's next for the business. And so I like that because if you're a small shop, it's all right to not have to try to compete with somebody who's got venture capital funding and who's got a bunch of data scientists on their team. Right you're just trying to figure out how do you optimize a funnel for one for one product even that's that's a good starting point. I I'm gonna overlay this with a digital growth perspective here that we teach, which is Tlc, because everyone needs a little bit of t lc and their life and of course we all need some tender loving care. But when it comes to growth, we need traffic, we need leads, we need conversions, and I find it Um a bit ironic. You know, we think growth happens for some reason at the top of the funnel. It's like we need to grow, we need to drive more traffic and we need to spend more money at the top of the funnel, and I'm like no, no, no, no, no, like let's go to the bottom, let's let's take that and work conversions. Leads, traffic to ensure a we're able to track this to begin with Um and identify most likely to begin where are we losing opportunities? At the point of conversion, because what good is driving traffic at the top of the funnel if we have a leaky bucket at the bottom? It's like grains of sand. We go to the beach, we can we pick up sand and we have that stand in our hand, but then it just falls through our fingertips. It's the same thing. So once we have that conversion problem solved, then we can move up to the middle of the funnel and look at lead conversion nurturing and automation and all of that fun stuff. And then now we can move to the top of the funnel and I think that's where we can turn the spick it on and start to drive traffic in. And you're doing this at an incremental pace too, because if you move too fast you lose opportunity.

If you're not moving fast enough, you're not getting the numbers you need to quantify each one of these different data points and behavior. But I like I like the point of small because I think it gives the dear listener, particularly if they are at a smaller financial brand and they are strapped for time and resources. It gives them permission to focus on the few things that matter most. Because there has been so much hype about big data, I like the small data approach to start with, because it's a way that I can measure progress and not perfection. What would you say to someone who might be struggling in these areas, trying to do too much? They feel overwhelmed. Maybe give them some peace of mind to say, Hey, this is okay, because you see a lot from a lot and a lot of different verticals, with a lot of different teams and a lot of different structures. What's your take on that? Yeah, I think that there's there's some psychological conflicts that happened the lead to this, and then there's also it's. It's it's. Some of it's just how we fram it. The problem. First one is that, as you mentioned, like, usually the conversions is handled by a sales team and then the top of funnel is handled by marketing, and usually they're sort of at a conflict with each other, not at a collaboration and and and because that things ripple through where marketing does something that the sales people don't want right. Ultimately, making Mike and making the economic engine work is the end game here, and so I think that it is often on the on marketers listening to other marketers as opposed to to what the rest of the company needs, or just not having those conversations. And then they're like okay, well, I'm gonna run ads because Google tells me to, I'm gonna run facebook adds because they tell me to, and it's it's really tactical around what vendors are pushing you, not what's right for your company. And so I think that this idea gives you the permission to to talk internally versus externally, and to go there. Um. But also I think that sometimes sales has an unrealistic ex dictation or they don't really they're they're impatient, right. They're like, well, why would I even do a marketing program if I if I can't sell it? You know. So, Um. So I think the marketing, the marketers position is very difficult. It's very challenging and I've I've taught over a thousand marketers at the University of St Thomas in Minnesota about this and and they all have, everybody is the same problem, that that they're expected to do so much yet they get so little resources. And so what I teach people is how to frame up the conversation to be more about Um. You you actually touched on this earlier, and that is Um. A ten percent conversion rate means nothing to an executive, but saying we just lost eighty five dollars because we have opportunity means that you can put that against the problem, you can actually put that into an r o I equation and you can start to change a conversation to say, Hey, it's not so much that we need to spend money on marketing or the marketing is this or that, it's that, if we can frame this thing up, we get more going into sales. It's not easy to measure right away, but this is the momentum we need. We are definitely leave eight dollars off the table from the current metrics. If we can just give some more resources aligned with this thing, if we can get alignment here, we will get there. Are you okay with with doing that? They projected R O I of spending an extra ten grand on this thing is tremendous and that compounds over and over again. You guys get finance right, so you should be able to get this stuff right. But a lot of times it's marketing has always treated like a cost center and yet sales has treated like a profit center. Sales counts as like top line revenue and and marketing is usually something that counts as an expense center. So if you treat marketing like it's an expense, then it's always going to be justifying what you do. Versus, if we look at it as we're on the offensive here, the more marketing we get, the better we're gonna get, then you change the conversation entirely to like how much marketing can we put out there? This is why I wrote banking on digital growth to provide a framework for marketing cells and leadership teams to learn, collaborate and grow together. Because, to your point, I feel that pain...

...so much from a marketing team perspective. It's like where a cost center, we're kids that play with paint and crayons, you know, we're the last minute Kinko's who's just kind of always in this this state of chaos, and that's where I am a big believer going forward into the future marketing plus cells. There's a lot of collaboration that can happen and a common language is needed there, because marketing and cells, when you add them together, that really equals the growth teams. As we start to wrap up here, Jeff, and I'm telling you, man, I could have this conversation for another hour, two, three with you. I'm so grateful for the perspective you've shared so far. Um. There's a lot to do, Um, and I'm a big believer of you know, small things adding up lead to really big things going forward. What is the next best step for the dear listener, kind of at a very macro level, Um, uh, to to empower them to establish a future growth habit through a simple action, something small that they can take today, to at least get some momentum, to at least get some forward progress when it comes to data and analytics. It's a good, good question, and it can be it's so open ended right that it can be anything. Um. I would say that the opportunity that I recognize now is this, and that is Google analytics, for is going to be the only Google provided analytics tool on July one. What will happen is your old analytics you might have had for fifteen years will no longer collect data and those reports will blank when you log in on that day, July one. And so you can either wait till the last minute and and like, okay, well, what do I do next, or you can use Google analytics for as an opportunity to be the way that you did that, that you should have done it back in the day. You know, it's a fresh start. So I would say the best thing you can do is consider your analytics right now as a fresh start, because you're gonna have to do that anyway, whether you like it or not. Your hand is forced. So look at this as like a fresh opportunity to learn things from the ground up and to do things that are important to you, whether you use my small framework, whether you use TLC, whatever you use to start to frame it up in the process, in the process of we do need top of funnel awareness, we do need to get people along the journey and we need conversions. We need these things. How do I steer our measurements that we're only focused on those things as opposed to all this other noise, all these other all this other stuff there? And so the cool thing about g a four is that you can completely customize the interface to remove any report that you don't like. So like in the old Google analytics, it was the same one for everybody. One size fits all. Whether you have a ten person cat blog or a million or a million customer e commerce store, they all have the same google analytics when they logged in. Now you can actually remove menu items, you can remove metrics that you don't like, you can change the charts, you can customize it, and so I've gone into g a four and I've just made it so that matches my aces framework, my small data framework, and you can match it t LC. So you can rebuild it how how you intended to, so it makes the most sense for your company. And so I would start experimenting with what is analytics. When I have a choice, when I get to choose what's going on there, what would I show? Would I have a lot fewer things there? Would it be a lot less confusing for me and my company? And then how do I make it so that I am incentivized to log in so I can see progress towards these these kp as that I'm looking at? So I would say fresh start is the big thing for you, and then only adding things that matter so looking at it as like addition by subtraction as opposed to audition by exponential yeah, I like the idea of the framework, whether it be aces or small or TLC, because a framework, and we teach a lot of them, because the framework provides a mental model to calm the complexity, to simplify a lot of the chaos into a a unified view. It's that common language I was mentioned before that is easily understand understood throughout the organization. And I like the idea two, of a fresh start in simplifying things, removing the...

...things that that don't matter so that we can really focus on the few things that matter most, or what you referenced a couple of times in this conversation. So we want to continue this conversation. Um, I know I know some listening to as well. What's the best way for them to reach out, say hello, connect with you to do just that? Yeah, so I have a website, data driven you dot com, like you like university, and if you go there you can check out all the blog posts we have and different digital products we have. We we are an education company. So I teach people this Um both in live seminars and prerecorded courses, as well as a bunch of documents you can use, um s ops and so on. And then I also have a youtube channel where we published once a week and uh, on our Youtube Channel, which we can put in the in the show notes. YouTube dot com slash C Slash Jeff polytics. That will give you the just a weekly video. That's old school right there, Jeff polytics. That's all. That's you're bringing me back in the day, man, good stuff, good stuff. Yeah, I haven't changed that one yet, so hopefully it's still there. But yeah, I had that blog for a long time and then we moved over to data driven you after a while. So well, this is great stuff. Connect with Jeff, learned from Jeff, grow with Jeff. Jeff, thank you so much for joining me for another episode of banking on digital growth. Yeah, thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. Until next time and, as always, be well, do good, make your bed. Thank you for listening to another episode of banking on digital growth with James Robert Lay. To get even more practical and proven insights, along with coaching and guidance, visit digital growth dot com slash insider to join a community of growth minded marketing and sales leaders from financial brands and fin techs. Until next time, be well and do good. I have say a bay in the F.

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