Banking on Digital Growth
Banking on Digital Growth

Episode · 1 year ago

88) #ExponentialInsights: The Post-COVID Rise of Banking as a Service

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

The end of the pandemic is in sight, but the changes it brought to our way of life will continue well into the future.

Just look at the meteoric rise of Banking as a Service.

My guest today, Christopher Danvers, Senior Product Manager at Q2 BaaS, knows a thing or two about BaaS’ rise, since he is responsible for the lifecycle of card and payment experiences that help define the future of payment ecosystems for fintechs.

What we talked about:

- The growing popularity of BaaS and how the pandemic accelerated it

- Why BaaS is the perfect intersection of traditional banking and innovative fintechs

- Why BaaS relies on the right partners and open, honest dialogue with them

You can find this interview and many more by subscribing to Banking on Digital Growth on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, or here.

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for Banking on Digital Growth in your favorite podcast player.
 

...most frontex were started because a founder or someone had a bad experience at a financial institution or they had a challenge with some type of experience and they've made it their journey to figure out a better way to do that. Mhm mm, mm. Mhm. Mhm. You're listening to banking on digital growth. With James Robert lay a podcast that empowers financial brand marketing, sales and leadership teams to maximize their digital growth potential by generating 10 times more loans and deposits. Today's episode is part of the exponential insight series where James robert interviews the industry's top marketing sales and fintech leaders, sharing practical wisdom to exponentially elevate you and your team. Let's get into the show greetings and hello, I am James robert ley and welcome to the 88th episode of the Banking on digital growth podcast. Today's episode is part of the exponential insight series and I'm excited to welcome Christopher danvers to the show. Christopher is a senior product manager at Q2 where he's bringing 15 years of experience, working with various financial brands focused around payments and he is responsible for the life cycle of card and payment experiences that helped define the future of payment ecosystems for fintech and other banking as a service clients. You know, payments is such a hot topic right now and one that I see is going to continue to grow just the other day. I saw Brett king post on linkedin and he's been a guest of the show he posted. If this is quote if as a bank, you are still issuing plastic cards in 2025 and you don't have the hooks into a mainstream mobile wallet, expect major disruption from super apps, mobile wallets etc. Brett continues Doing as you have always done, just won't do. There will be a need for plastic cards in 2025 but the integration with an investment in mobile wallets and mobile payments will be crucial to avoid disruption. I look forward to talking through this opportunity and more today with you Chris Welcome Christopher, welcome to the show. Thanks James. It's a pleasure to be here And you know this, this idea of payments, we're gonna go there and and opportunities and the work that you're doing right now over Q two. But I want to start with what's going well for you right now. What are you just most excited about whether that be personally or professionally? Um you know, I am, I'm personally excited about all of us getting back to some kind of state of normalcy, probably not where we were in 2019, you know, but as as we're all progressing with getting vaccinated, I hope that we can all find a way to get back to some kind of normal where we can all be in a room together. We can go back to conferences. You know, we can have cheap table wine and domestic beer over, you know, hot bland order gives, you know, and network again, uh, you know, James, I...

...know that you've done a great job of transitioning, you know, in this space to, you know, your, your digital podcast series, you know, verse being out there in the speaker, you know, circuit. And I know there's been a change for you, but you know, I'm looking forward to some of that stuff. Again, putting on a suit and tie again for a legitimate business purpose. You know, probably didn't enjoy that too much in the past. But I'm actually relishing the opportunity to do that man. I am right there with you and cheap table house wine and domestic beers. Let me ask you, what are you gonna be drinking when we're back at that cocktail? What are you gonna be drinking then? Yeah. You know, I'm a, I'm an Asahi super dry and hot sake kind of guy myself. But really, oh wow, wow. So so we can sit here and go down a rabbit hole of japanese whiskies. That's, that's kind of my, my first whiskey scotch, that's my forte and I've gotten into some of the japanese whiskey. Very, very good stuff. But we're not, we're not going to go there today. I want to come back to just, you know, you've spent a lot of time in payments. You've led digital strategy for financial brands before we talk about where you're at right now, I want to go back and how you got to this point and more specifically what have been some of the biggest lessons that you've learned along the way through the lens of payments through the lens of digital strategy. Because don't they go hand in hand together, They've become one in the same right? You know, if you think about payments, payments today are technically a digital exchange of value. And if we think about what the pandemic has done from the payment experiences that we, you know, have have migrated to, you know, less about going to a physical store. But if you are in a physical store, you've got retailers. I think probably for the first time all saying, hey, we want to accept the contact less payment verse cash, right? You know, if you do go to a to a restaurant, you know, I had some experiences when I was recently in Atlanta where the weather came to the table with his, his machine printed out the receipt and had a QR code on the bottom. You scan the QR code. And because you're doing this from your mobile device you can actually pay for your check using Apple Pay. So pay with the pay with Apple Pay button integrated into the operating system. You know website that at the point of sale system took you to so you know an in person dining experience. But I had a completely contact liss payment experience without giving someone a physical card. So I felt more secure you know being a payments guy. I know that that transaction was tokenized so you know if their system got compromised, I'm good too. So these are all new payment experiences that you know I think are that are going to be the permanent type of changes that we're going to see after the pandemic after we return to some kind of normal after we can socialize again you know, and do all the things that we missed with the people that we appreciate and love. Yeah. And and and get that cheap table wine and those domestic domestic beers. Because you're right, It's it's their new habits there. It's becoming...

...more comfortable. I mean, I even think at the gas station now, I'm seeing tap to pay being implemented and rolled out a lot more frequently, which you know, as a consumer I I prefer. Is it a matter of behavior and adoption? What's driving all of this? Is that the consumer, is it is it the technology, is it the retailer or is it a mix of all three kind of just, you know, Covid has been the forcing function to bring all this to bear at a single moment. I think it's a bit of all three right. I mean restaurants have had to adapt pretty quickly if you think about the restaurants that have stuck around there, probably the restaurants that have either already had a healthy to go business, you know, either through their own websites or apps or through strong partnerships with Uber eats and other food ordering services that are out there because when you've gone past some of these restaurants there's no one dining for the obvious, for obvious reasons, you know, but they're staying open and the kitchens are busy. Right? So I think retailers and restaurants for that matter having to adapt and figuring out, well how do I still provide a a commerce experience? You know, that's that's focused on the health and safety of my employees and my customers. I think those types of things are driving some of these changes we're seeing obviously when you think about the shift of in purchase or in person purchasing to online purchasing or mobile purchasing, whether it's our addiction to amazon or whether it's, you know, ordering groceries for pickup or delivery, you know, or you know, ordering food through, through through any ordering app that's out there, that's a shift, a sizable shift, I think of transaction volume that's moved from in person using a physical card to using a digital credential, whether it's a card that you've stolen on file in an app, you know, and that's being done out of, you know, the customer's interest, right? You know, the customer is driving that volume of change and then because of that, then I think you're seeing new payment services, you know, get a breath of of life, you know, like buy now pay later, you know, so if you've got consumers that are already adopting a different type of online spend than they've done in the past, this is giving life to buy now pay later services where they can offer the ability for you to pace for that larger purchase and installment purchases. I think what's also behind a little bit of that is the fact that because of the pandemic as consumers, we've overwhelmingly preferred to use debit cards over credit cards And I think for a couple of reasons we're flush with cash because of stem ease. But also the type of purchasing that you could do in the pandemic was more what you would do as a consumer with a debit card, it was your everyday purchases, you know, the larger luxury purchases or the international travel purchases or those types of things that you primarily pull a credit card out for. You couldn't really do those for a period of time, right? You know, there was, there wasn't that drive or need for that type of transaction. So I think all of these things are being driven by you know, to to your original question, a combination of businesses, consumers, you know, and other folks that that that play a role in influencing how we spend and how we exchange value. You...

...know this idea of shifting consumer behavior, the adoption of just new methodologies, I even think of like what Shopify has done for the small business and empowering small businesses to come online restaurants and to even watch my wife interact with you know, websites that are powered by Shopify and that payment experiences is much more simplified than even never before. One of the things that you know I'm thinking about is you're talking through this the next level up Blockchain, you know, Bitcoin crypto how is all of this going? Because you you talked about you know Buy Now pay later as kind of a new trend that's popping up but what about Blockchain? Crypto? Bitcoin I mean bitcoins at 58223 is recording today Man, I wish I jumped on that, you're about 10 years ago. You mean you you wish you jumped on the Bitcoin, I wish I jumped on the zoom bandwagon salesforce. I mean it's like you just, you look back in a year and like oh my gosh wow, wow, why didn't I see this coming? You're not, you're not kidding, but if you look and you kind of read between the tea leaves and you look at all of this, is it hype or is there something that's really going on and how is how is this going to then impact the payment space? Because we are seeing Fintech empowering financial brands to adopt crypto as a payment method. Yeah, the, the, the life cycle of crypto is interesting, right? You know, a bunch of nerds that created this ability to create tokens and it took a lot of computer processing power and people were mining it and then it's kind of evolved into where it is today, where it's if not already mainstream, it's almost there, right? I mean you've got well known wallets out their Paypal for example, that you can very easily set up a Paypal account, get a debit card and start purchasing, you know, Cryptocurrency. And I think Paypal actually recently announced that they'll start allowing their customers to use crypto as a form of payment for online merchants where Paypal checkouts accepted. So that's you know, so think about that at a real time check out event Paypal is going to allow you to take a Cryptocurrency value and exchange it into fiat currency so you can check out, you know, with the same type of checkout experience that you have if you're using a credit card or debit card, I think that's an early indicator that you're going to see um crypto becoming a more common currency that you can use at point of sale. In fact, I think it was a week or two ago that Visa announced that they recently set up their network and officially process the first crypto transaction ever, you know, over the Visa that the Visa payments network. So you're seeing the payments infrastructure in the world kind of prepare for the acceptance of Cryptocurrency in some form or fashion, which I think, you know, all points to this is going to be a currency option that's part of our...

...wallet. Well then then you add in the complexity and this is where you start to go down a rabbit hole. But I think it's one as we're talking about payments, it's important to at least maybe you just think about and correct me if I'm wrong, cause that could be way off base on this. But joe policy, who is going to be coming on the podcast was the founder of the Content Marketing Institute. He wrote a great article about why he's bullish on creator coins and you know, it's, it's it's a great branding for personal brands. We're seeing terry crews launching his own currency for his fan base. I think Snoop Dogg has now come out with the same type of thinking. But how does all of this like the creator coin and crypto play together? Because now we're entering in a whole new place to where is it possible for me to have, you know, the currency of of the Digital Growth Institute for that matter? I mean maybe your guess is as good as mind there. I think what I think what's a little bit more interesting is N. F. T. S. And non fungible tokens where you've got people that have taken the Blockchain and taken cryptocurrencies like the theory um you know, Blockchain, you know and and and coin that exists on that Blockchain. And now they've created an ability to add an additional layer of value on top of the Cryptocurrency that's already there, you know, and you know that non fungible token, something that's unique that only ever exists once. I think what's really interesting in this space, if you think about squares recent acquisition of title, you know, square it plays you know heavy and in in the Bitcoin space. So what if squares plan is to allow title music to be issued as N. F. T. So you know, robert, you could purchase a once only track by you know the singer of uh that you adore the most or a limited edition. You know track that is only ever available this many times. You know what if what if N. F. T. S. Was the was the way that that value was exchanged? Well that music is created. I mean it's it's a whole new value proposition, value proposition on top of Blockchain and Cryptocurrency. And that's that's the interesting stuff that I think is really going to that's going to take off in in can maybe niche markets first you know, but it will find its footing. And if you if you think about you know what Apple did to the music industry where you didn't have to buy the $25 cd anymore, you can just buy one track for 99 cents that revolutionized how we consume music and FTS might do the same thing. That's well and that's exactly what joe policy was talking about about the creator coin in the way that he writes as he says, creator coin is a Cryptocurrency that helps creators run their own virtual economies. Just like the U. S. Has had the dollar in France. Is the euro, a podcaster or a Youtuber or twitch or a Tiktok star can have their own currency. And and as I saw this morning money 2020 dot com has released...

...an episode that specifically talks about N. F. T. S. And they said that we had too much fun with this episode and turn this into a podcast and turn the original artwork into an N. F. T. You can bid on all for charity. So it's almost like exactly what you're talking about in real time. Check this out, hop over to money 2020 dot com and I think this will give a better perspective into where payments. It's really it's a it's a rabbit hole if you will of of payments can possibly go. So you've moved over to Q two senior product manager for cards and payments. Q two is based out of Austin. What are you focused on right now? And what problems are you starting to solve, moving into the space? And I think you bring a lot of empathy coming from the traditional financial world, spending a lot of time at different financial brands. So what are you seeing right now? What are you working on? What do you focus on? What problems are you solving? It's the the transition to banking as a service has been really interesting and super exciting. You know, I have thoroughly enjoyed, you know, the past few months, you know, in the space already, uh you know, it's it's if I was going to describe it to someone who isn't in this space today, it would be the perfect intersection between traditional financial services and Frontex and Innovation. Right? So you've got Fintech partners that are moving forward. They want to do innovative things, they want to do Digital issuance at account opening. You know, they want to do, you know, the types of payment things that we know we can do as an industry. The capabilities are there these are the folks that are bringing them to the table and to market first, you know, and and then where the intersection is is on the other side, you've got out bank partners that are the regulated institutions that still need to be satisfied from a due diligence perspective and all those types of things. So you're in this middle, you're in this in this middle space where you're satisfying future forward innovation and how do we make that work within the realms of traditional financial services? So yes, you know the experience I think that I've had in the past allows me to sit well in the middle there, understand what's possible, you know what we can do. But then work closely with our partners and our internal partners to figure out how can we do that while satisfying whole different suite of stakeholders. Technology has transformed our world and digital has changed the way consumers shop for and buy financial services forever. Now, consumers make purchase decisions long before they walk into a branch, if they walk into a branch at all, but your financial brand still wants to grow loans and deposits, we get it. Digital growth can feel confusing, frustrating and overwhelming for any financial brand, marketing and sales leader, but it doesn't have to because James robert wrote the book that guides you every step of the way along your digital growth journey, visit www dot digital growth dot com to get a preview of his best selling book...

...banking on digital growth or order a copy right now for you and your team from amazon Inside you'll find a strategic marketing manifesto that was written to transform financial brands and it is packed full of practical and proven insights you can start using today to confidently generate 10 times more loans and deposits now back to the show and how do you bridge that gap? Because they're all coming at this from a little bit of a different perspective they have and I think what drives a lot of that is just their worldview, their experience, because experience shapes reality, How are you helping to bridge all of these different worlds, you know, moving into a level of conversions? Yeah, so it's not just me, you know, I'm surrounded with a great team of people, of a great team of very capable, very knowledgeable people, acute too, you know, in the banking as a service team, so you know, it's been refreshing to come into an environment where everyone seems to know exactly what they need to do, they know how to do it and the team works really well together to get it done on behalf of who the stakeholders are, you know, that that we're serving at that time. I think Finn Techs are similarly to the space that I came from. Credit unions, they're solving similar consumer problems. Credit unions are all about people helping people Well, most Frontex were studied because the founder or someone had a bad experience at a financial institution or they had a challenge with some type of experience. And they've made it their journey to figure out a better way to do that, whether that's overdraft, whether that's investing, whether that's managing your funds, you know, when your finances, whatever, whatever that calling was. So it's they're just doing it from a technology first perspective, they're not settled with some of the legacy systems and legacy challenges that financial institutions, you know, have that are just innately part of Being around for 50, 60, 70, 80 100 years, right? You know, they're able to start with a clean technology stack, you know, and and then build verse bolt onto legacy systems. And I think that makes some significant difference in in their ability to get in there and and problem solve and come up with creative new ways to solve for the same consumer challenges the traditional financial institutions are also faced as well. What are some of those problems? What are some of the opportunities that you're seeing that you're hearing about what the conversations that you're having from? I think you said it best. They're they're starting from scratch. They don't have the history and the the legacy that weighs them down for lack of a better word. What are some of the opportunities that that you're seeing right now and you're hearing about? I mean in the payments space specifically, it's all about the real time exchange of value and when you onboard a customer into a Fintech app or a Fintech experience, how can you get a...

...payment card or payment mechanism, you know, to that consumer in real time? So it's all about instant digital issuance of cards. I think Frontex are hued infinitely to the experience of receiving something. So, you know, most companies will out there will still issue a physical piece of car, a piece of plastic because you still need that card to conduct transactions at most places. But you know, the thought that goes into how a card looks, the materials that the card is made up of, you know, the packaging and the experience that you as the customer received when you receive it in the mail. That's very different than what you get from traditional financial institutions where you've got a card that is in a discreet envelope because they don't want someone to be stealing that card from email box before you get it right. I mean, it's looking at the same experience or same opportunity just with a very different lens and trying to solve for that same problem. You know, approaching it from a different perspective. It is packaging, it's experience, I think of the conversation I had with Benschop, who is the ceo of that unify money and they're tying the card, you know, being made from recycled plastics because it fits into their larger purpose of environmental friendly and packaging and how it's all delivered. We've been doing some secret shopping around chime and chime is communicating constantly with people who have opened up a chime account. You know, this is where your debit card is, It just shipped out. It's almost like e com so people have an expectation of when it should arrive and if they haven't taken any action to activate it, china's following up. You know, is there anything that we can do to help what's what might be holding you back? So it's a it's a multi channel experience that's tied back to, I think what you, your best frame, it's an exchange of value when it all boils down to it, What are some of the roadblocks that, you know, could hold financial brands back and maybe even Fintech back when it comes to the payment space? What are some of the biggest roadblocks that that we just need to be aware of and thinking about? I think first and foremost, you've got to make sure you've got the right partners, So, you know, whether your legacy financial institution, whether you're a Fintech, it's that combination of partners that you work with, you know, that helps you realize and achieve, you know, what you're ultimately trying to do. So you've got to make sure that your you've got the right partners working with you, you know, and there's a strategic understanding of what you're doing and why? Secondly, I think you need to make sure that you're making the right investments, whether that stuff, whether that's technology capabilities, internal capabilities, whatever that is to actually achieve what you want to do. I don't think you want to be The Rio Olympics, right? Where you know, you've got this plan to pull off the Olympics, that's $2 billion, but you're only willing to invest 435 million. I think those are the two numbers that I had heard when the Rio Olympics were happening, right? I don't think you want to be the Rio Olympics of of financial services. Right. So I think you've got to you've got to make sure...

...that you're really willing to invest in the capabilities that are needed to pull off your vision if that's what you're if you're really serious about doing that expectations. I think that's like that's something that I'm hearing and seeing a lot more with the conversations that I'm having is we have an expectation for, let's just call it X and it's really, really big and grandiose, but we're only bringing wide to the table and there's a gap between X and Y. How do you bridge even, let's just say the expectation gap of getting the right capability of the right partners making the right investments so that X can become a reality because why happens? And we're not all that thrilled and excited and unmet expectations are unrealized. Expectations lead to frustration and some painful conversations that happen internally. How do you reconcile that with an organization? I think it takes a lot of alignment. I think it takes a lot of honest and open dialogue. You know, you know, part of our earlier conversation before then the mic was on, it's probably easy to figure out what to do. But understanding the how when the rubber hits the road, being honest about that, I think is what's a successful part of of of making that work. You know, if you're if you pull together a plan and get it approved to do X, but you don't have the people on board about Y and Z. You're never gonna get to X right? It's never it's never going to come to fruition or if or if it does, it's gonna be challenging, it's gonna be difficult. So what I've seen, what I've seen in this space is, you know, open and honest conversations about what it would actually take to achieve this. You know, a good structure that allows alignment around priorities and making trade offs and commitments, you know, to make sure that we can we can deliver what were promising, we're going to deliver open and honest conversations. I want to just pause and reinforce that because we were having this discussion in a in one of the digital growth book clubs a few weeks ago that a member was wishing that they, I wish we could have the conversations that we're having this book club with the larger part of our organizations because they were very real, they were very raw. And I said, well, what's what's holding you back from making that a reality? Just having this conversation? And they said there's a lot of fear, like, like to to to admit that we might not know something or that we might not have the answer. And I was like, well, that's a, you know, if if you think that you can have the answer to everything, then we're already behind. That's why to back to your point, getting sure that you have the right partners and you've let a lot of digital strategy, a lot of payment strategy over the years. How have you helped encourage others to move forward? And we'll just call it on their own journey of growth, knowing that changes, hard changes, scary change is painful. What could you advise the dear listener who is connecting with what you're saying? They see some of the opportunities that...

...you're you're seeing, but they know that they need to transform hearts and minds internally. Where could they begin these open honest conversations and discussions with others? I think you can start with encouraging the dialogue, encouraging the conversations, bringing the new ideas and opportunities to the table. You know, putting them in front of the right people, the influences in your organization, the leaders in your organization, depending on where you sit, you know, you may be in a position to influence the outcome of that. You might be in a position where you're having to hand it to a leader or someone in your organization that you trust and then you're letting them go forth and push that forward as far as it can go. But I think, I think the lesson of the key part that I would, the advice that I would give is is do all of that. But you've got to listen for whether or not the appetite is really there because if if if you're in an environment where you're bringing all these great ideas to the table and you know, there's not the traction behind it, then you need to be honest with yourself and figure out, okay, am I adding as much value here right now as I could be? Am I comfortable with the value that they're asking me to bring? And there's got to be in alignment with what you personally and professionally trying to do with what the organization that you are serving, you know, is professionally trying to do in the marketplace as well, man, that is like that right there, that's so powerful, because you talk about having open and honest conversations with the team with the organization, but to have open and honest conversation with the team and organization, you have to have open and honest conversations first and foremost with yourself. And I've seen and really over the last six months getting a lot of questions from leaders for different parts of the organization who are really having almost an existential crisis like why am I here? Why why am I doing what I'm doing? Like these are really good things and I think it's a great, great segue because it's something that I asked you about before, something I found on your website Christopher danvers dot com, which if you're listening, I highly recommend you check out some of Christopher's thinking Christopher danvers dot com. One of the things that that's noted is something called the Holstein manifesto and it's very interesting, I've never heard of the Holstein manifesto. Can you give the dear listener what this is and why it's important and why why is this on your website here to begin with in the first place? Because it's a very powerful perspective. Yes, so about a decade ago I was visiting some friends of mine out in san Francisco and they had this whole state manifesto in one of their rooms, you know, and I remember sitting in the room and just and looking at it and reading it over and over again, and the manifesto itself, there are a number of things in this manifesto that struck a chord with me personally, and ever since then I've had two copies of it, I've had one in my house and I've had one, you know, where I worked professionally as a reminder that you've got a limited...

...opportunity to do what's valuable for you in the world, you know, and it's very easy whether it's because of fear, whether it's because of inertia, whether it's because you're comfortable, you know, to easily forget about what you want to do, verse figuring out how to manage through a circumstance that you're in and when I've had times of difficulty or challenges, you know, throughout my life at least over the past decade, this particular manifesto has helped me personally, and I can actually read it out if you want. Would that be helpful? Please do. Because I think this would give a lot of context and and it might just be the thing that someone is listening to this conversation today. This could be the most important thing. They here out of everything that we've talked about. Yeah and on the back drop of 2020 and working through the pandemic, you know we've all faced personal challenges. Something like this can become a really I think powerful tool to provide some of that perspective that each of us might be struggling a little bit with you know, as far as we where we want to be and if not how do you figure out where you want to be, right? But here's the manifesto, it starts off with this is your life, do what you love and do it often if you don't like something change it. If you don't like your job quit. If you don't have enough time stop watching tv. If you are looking for the love of your life stop they will be waiting for you when you start doing the things you love. Stop over analysing life is simple. All emotions are beautiful when you eat, appreciate every last bite. Open your mind, arms and heart to new things and people were united in our differences. That's the next person. You see what their passion is and share your inspiring dream with them. Travel often getting lost. We'll help you find yourself some opportunities only come once sees them. Life is about the people you meet and the things you create with them. So go out and start creating. Life is short lived. Your dream and share your passion. Mhm. Man Christopher thank you. That's that's some powerful stuff right there and you know I think it's one that save this episode, come back and just listen to this, get the whole scene manifesto printed out, look at it like Christopher does because it's life is very short and my philosophy is give more than you take continuously. Just pour yourself out to others to continuously elevate them. And as a result the secret is by elevating them. You're also gonna elevate yourself as well on that note and this has been such a good conversation and I've learned a lot today and I appreciate the expertise Christopher as we start to wrap things up. What is a practical step, an action something small for the dear listener to consider committing to when it comes to maximizing just their future payments potential either at...

...their financial brand or at their Fintech. What's one small practical commitment that they can make to continue to move forward down this journey with confidence. Yeah, I think one of the easiest things you can do is identify a problem, whether it's a problem that your customers, you know are talking to you about whether it's a problem internally with the business process or how something is or isn't functioning properly, start with identifying a problem and if you're passionate about that problem or that problem means something to you, then you can work through your organization and your partners to figure out how can I solve that problem. And when you do those things together in that order, you know, I think that helps you live a role within an organization that's fulfilling, you know, But the key is you've got to be passionate about the problem that you're solving. That's the key part. Start by looking for identifying problems and then create solutions cures to those pain points to those problems versus what we see a lot of times as people try to create the cure the solution first and then go find the problem where that might fit. So it's a small switch in thinking but can have very powerful implementations over the course of someone's not just organizational life, but just their own personal life as well. Someone is listening right now Christopher, they want to continue this conversation and discussion with you. They want to dive deeper into the Holstein manifesto. What's the best way for them to find you to reach out? I've already mentioned your website Christopher danvers dot com, but what's the best way for them to reach out and say hello, connect with you twitter. My handle is king of payments or directly on linkedin Christopher. Denver's send me a note more than happy to exchange ideas information and help people think through whatever these challenges are. We're all in this together in some form or fashion. Right yes. Open your mind. Arms and hearts, new things and people because as you noted with the whole state manifesto, we are all united definitely are Christopher. Once again this has been great. Thank you so much for joining me on another episode of Banking on digital growth. James. Thank you for having me here. It's been great as always and until next time be well. Do good and make your bed. Thank you for listening to another episode of Banking on digital growth with James robert. Ley. Like what you hear, tell a friend about the podcast and leave us a review on apple podcasts, google podcasts or Spotify and subscribe while you're there to get even more practical improvement insights visit www dot digital growth dot com to grab a preview of James roberts, best selling book banking on digital growth, or order a copy right now for you and your team from amazon inside, you'll find a strategic marketing and sales blueprint framed around 12 key areas of focus that empower you to confidently...

...generate 10 times more loans and deposits until next time, be well and do good.

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