Banking on Digital Growth
Banking on Digital Growth

Episode · 1 year ago

52) #DigitalGrowthJourneys: Wise Investments Just Take the Right Motivation w/ Ben Soppitt


We all like buying new things; it’s human nature.  

We know we shouldn’t spend frivolously — but we do anyway.  

Why can’t saving money be as fun as spending it?  

That’s the question that led Ben Soppitt, Founder and CEO at Unifimoney, to create a financial product that motivates people to save.  

What we talked about:

  • How young affluent professionals are being gouged by traditional banks
  • Why poor financial habits are caused by lack of motivation, not lack of infrastructure
  • How Unifimoney makes finance fun 

You can find this interview, and many more, by subscribing to Banking on Digital Growth on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, or here. of the comments you often get is rich people don't need help with their money on. If you're a young doctor earning 152 $100,000 year your golden, you know you don't need help that it couldn't be further from the from the truth. The other comment I heard early on is, but all the banks want those customers, and they, you know, they're very well served by those customers, and they aren't. They've been gouged by the big grand banks. You're listening to Banking on Digital Growth with James Robert Ley Ah, podcast that empowers financial brand marketing, sales and leadership teams to maximize their digital growth potential by generating 10 times more loans and deposits. Today's episode is part of the digital growth journeys. Siri's, where James Robert uncovers and Explorers some of the industry's biggest digital marketing and sales stories of success. Let's get into the show Greetings in Hello, I am James Robert Ley and welcome to the 52nd episode of the Banking on Digital Growth podcast. Today's episode is part of the banking on digital growth journey, Siri's and I'm excited to welcome Ben, Stop it to the show Been is the founder and CEO of Unify Money. And he is such a great story to tell with a lot of insights, a lot of his inspiration. I'm inspired by the work that he is doing. And I hope that you, dear listener, are as well so that you can apply these insights on your own journey of digital growth. So thank you very much for joining me today, Ben. Thank you, James. Great to be here. Yeah, you know, when we've already had such a great conversation before we hit the record button. But when when you reflect back on this great century of 2020 looking ahead into 2021 what has you most energized and excited right now? So I'm really excited about where we are in our product journey. I've been working on this for so many years. We started designing it out two years ago, and now 80% of functionality is there. It's a broad vision. It's a you know, we're designing a fully featured money management portal super app, really in current terminology, and it's taken such a long time to get here, and we're finally at the point where I can actually now use my unified money app to manage my money. And that's that zoo. To see something go from concept to reality is, um, super exciting. Andi, where a few weeks from going into our open enrollment, you know, we're not having a big launch event or launch moment. It's much more of a rolling process, but we're gonna be starting to invite customers outside of our Vita as of about 10 days from now. So that's yeah, super exciting. Well, let's talk about that because I think like this is a journey you mentioned. It's two years it. It was conceived on a napkin and the work you're doing at Unify I want to start. Why is this work important? Let's start there. Let's start with with why is this important for you? So I e think there's different levels. I mean, there's there's, there's important on a personal level on guy. I just reached a point in my career in my life where I had Mawr ideas that I felt needed to be implemented than I was finding companies who shared that vision or get the sort of radical nature of that vision, and I tried. You know, I I talked to a bunch of people. My assumption was I would take this vision of, ah, money management super app for high earning young professionals. Andi, it seems so obvious to me that there was a need and a clear opportunity, But everyone kept on launching neo banks with debit cards for underbanked on bass market consumers. So, yeah, you know, there was a sort of personal moment of Well, if no one else is going to do it, I...

...have to do it myself. I've never been a founder before. I'm almost 50. So apparently I'm part of diversity in startups because I'm in older founder. Great. And then, you know why is it important? I, you know, in my view, for for for the greater economy and greater society. And, you know, one of the comments you often get is rich people don't need help with their money. When if you're a young doctor earning 152 $100,000 year your golden you know you don't need help that it couldn't be further from the from the truth. The other The other comment I heard early on is but all the banks want those customers, and they, you know, they're very well served by those customers, and they aren't. They've been gouged by the big grand banks on. If you look at the proportion of people of proportion of millennials who actually investing their money, it's less than a third on the younger you get below 30. It's even. It's an even smaller, smaller proportion. The vast majority of millennials are keeping their money in cash in one form or another, and that money is just dying. There's not a deposit interest rate in the market that that's higher than inflation. The net off that is, that hundreds of billions of dollars in earnings and interest that should be going to this entire community and and it's the Millennials are now the biggest economic community in the market. And yet hundreds of billions of dollars is being lost to them Every single year we calculated it was I can't remember what it was now several trillion dollars over their lifetime because they're not managing their money well and then we need to ask the question, Why are they not managing the money optimally? Surely it's in their best interest is there intelligent, well educated people, highly motivated people. And the answer is, well, it's really, really hard. And secondly, there in busy, stressful jobs with a whole bunch of things happening all at the same time, Andi hard and complex and the industry not making it easy. Busy people living their lives is a recipe whereby if no one's holding a gun to your head and saying, You need to sort out your finances, you leave it for a day, a week, a month, a year and suddenly you're you're 35 or 40 and your 401 K is maxed out. You don't have an emergency fund, something might happen or you get married, buy a house and you find yourself needing, you know, or seeking financial security. And you've lost 15 or 20 years, the most important from an investment point of view in terms of off compound growth, the most important years of your investing life. And they just went right. They just went off and you lost them. And they're not coming back. Yeah, you know, hearing you talk a couple of things that I take away from that number one, you're never too old to start something new. I think one of the greatest lessons from me, from what I've learned from from Dan Sullivan is always make your future greater than your past. And the work that you're doing in the positioning and the communication and you go to market to me seems to be very what I would call purpose driven in fact purposes at the heart of what I teach, which is the digital growth blueprint. Because, you know, we could sit here and maybe you could talk more about this of the problems when it comes to because you're focused on this millennial higher Ning niche market, which will come back to that here in a moment. But when you look at the problems you mentioned, the complexities that they're facing and one of the words that we use before was cognitive load. How is that impacting the decisions, even the habits that they have? Because because to your point, you know, people don't think, you know people with money have money problems, but that's not the case. Obviously, when you look at the millennial landscape in this post covered world, what are some of the biggest problems that you're seeing that you that you're focused on addressing. So if you look at the sins committed by mass affluent consumers in personal finance, they are almost all overwhelmingly sins of omission, not commission. It's what they don't do that hurts them. They leave money sitting in a low or no interest bearing...

...deposit account. They don't maximize the rewards and benefits from there credit card span. They don't dollar cost average, these air, all acts of omission, not commission. And a large part of the reason is the cognitive load that how complex and hard it is to make informed good decisions in this market. And there's there's a host of research that shows that when people have too much cognitive load, they end up doing nothing. And doing nothing is benefiting the big brand banks And, you know, the biggest lie ever told, and maybe the most successful marketing campaign ever. The banking is free, it's not free. It's just the cost of hidden. And we should all be asking ourselves if Chase keeps on year after year announcing record profits, and yet banking is free. Who's paying? And the answer is us on. We're paying because in part, the big brand banks are not economically incentivized to make saving and investing easy. They've they've solved the problem of payments because it's in their economic benefit to make payments as easy as possible. And they know that the easier something is, the more people do of it. Which is why uber got rid of the payment functionality. Amazon Go Got rid of the payment functionality. Amazon one click. These are all designed to make paying for stuff easy on this. The statistics are very, very clear. The easier it is to pay for stuff, the more we buy. If you had $100 in cash versus $100 on a credit card versus $100 on, I don't know, some sort of layaway. You're always gonna the further removed you are from the physical act of handing over cash, the more you're gonna buy on. We know that on the banks know that now the banks have no economic incentive to make saving and investing easy. In fact, they have the opposite because if you can put your deposits into a Vanguard fund and pay 1000.4% on those chases, earning nothing on that so they have absolutely no economic incentive to make it easy for you. So what we're trying to do is solve the problem of cognitive load by doing what uber did. We're taking away the effort so that our customers, by default on automatically model best practices and personal financial management. And we hope that the highest you know, there's a there's a decent proportion of the 15 million odd, affluent millennials in the U. S. Market that respond gravitate towards that idea. Well, simplicity is really the only way to escape complexity and by its inherent nature. Money is extremely complex, and a lot of that is rooted in environment, childhood upbringing, behaviors what they learn, what they think. And so when you look at not only the challenges but on the opposite side of the coin, it's the opportunities. What are the opportunities? And and one of them that you shared with me was almost a forcing function to help people establish new behaviors and new habits through the platform. That's correct. Yes, so we there's there's two things that we're doing well. In fact, there's a whole number of things, but the two things that tend to stand out that people notice is number one. We're the only bank in the world with a comedy sketch team. We're very proud of that and that there's a good reason good thinking behind that. Whether it works or not is another thing. And the second is that we force our customers to save and invest. We force them to adopt the behavior that they should be doing, whether they like it or not. Now, obviously, if they don't like it, they won't be unified money customer. But we require our customers. We have a minimum contribution. It's only $25 but we have a minimum contribution into the investment fund. Each month we recommend it's 100 or 200. It could be as high as they want. But if you're a unifying money customer, you are dollar cost averaging. You are investing in a customized, risk, appropriate, low cost diversified robot fund, and we hope that by forcing that function, people adopted people. You know the vast majority of millennials are not investing even fewer below 30. So if you take that first step in that we assist and create that forcing function, so they are investing, then we hope...

...that over time they will get the confidence they will learn by looking and seeing how that balance grows over time. And if they gravitate towards managing their own equity investments, if they if they gravitate towards crypto will gold or whatever else, then that's fantastic. But that first step is the hardest, and that's the step that we make mandatory. It's almost like, you know, you go to the gym and you get your gym membership. That's step one. But then step to. To really see some transformation with health for the vast majority of people is to get the gym membership, plus the trainer. It's consistency as well. Yes, you need Thio. The 30% of people who are millennials who invest are not necessarily investing in a very optimal way. You know, they invest in January because it's the New Year and they want to get their finance. Or did they invest when Bitcoins high or when? Tesler, You know, test is the great stock of the moment, and that's great fun, and there's no there's a role for that. But investing should be super boring. At least the vast majority of the time, and it's and it's very repetitive. And as human beings, we tend to gravitate towards things that are new and exciting and different and shiny. Object. Yeah, it's like investing is is not designed to be well suited to our cognitive behavior on, you know, the way we think in the way we do. So we are not good at doing complex, repetitive tasks. Technology is great doing complex, repetitive tasks. So we're simply using technology and some product design to try and make it as easy as possible. Where we say, you know, saving investing as easiest, paying for a new ver well, investing. I mean, it's another type of a journey, and it's it's like running a marathon. You know, you you start that marathon training program, and unless you're you've got an app. Thio. Either a hold you accountable and tell you what you need to do next, or B you're running with a group. It's very hard to keep that long term minds that once you get in and I've run multiple marathon because once you're getting up to 15 2022 miles before you actually have the race, you can just get tired mentally and say, You know what? It's just not worth it and you fall back on old behaviors. One of the things that the very well known Spike a logical phenomenon that we're really very powerless to prevent. When we buy things, we get an instant hit dopamine and it's a dopamine hit. It's like, Oh, I won, I got something, It's great and it's exciting. It doesn't last very long, but that's why it creates this cycle of sort of dependency in the cycle of reinforcement. You keep on buying things on Amazon because it's just feeling better and better and better, and the only way to retain that. And by the way, this is exactly the same thing that happens in drugs and alcohol abuse. We get used to that high. We want to keep that high going, which is how people end up spending too much. But when the payoff is maybe 30 or 40 years in the future, there is literally no dopamine hit in saving investing. So we're already up against it psychologically and with our natural, you know, biases, human biases that we are predicated to be buying more than we are saving and investing. And if you recognize that, that's the first step to managing that behavior and overcoming our own psychological limitations awareness. Yeah, it's awareness, and and then it's It's doing something about it because awareness declines over time is well. And there is a There's another very well known, very well researched psychological phenomenon whereby the further out a reward is, the more we discounted. So you know, when you're 20 and you're smoking because it look makes you look cool in front of girls. That's a very short term sort of viewpoint. When you're 80 and you can tell someone, listen, you'll you'll live 10 years longer if you stop smoking and then like I don't care. It's too far in the future. Yeah, if you're 80 years old and someone offers you 10 years more life, you're gonna take that and give anything for it. And that's the same phenomenon is that it's and we know this from pensions, you know? How do... sell pensions to 25 year olds? The government makes them do it because there's no amount of work you can do to get enough people to save and invest when they're young because they're invincible, and they can't imagine a future where they're going to need that money. And so that, you know, we are fighting human nature on We need to use every tool we can tow. Overcome it. Yeah, so awareness, acceptance, action, accountability and automation automation. I think automation is like it's the accountability piece of it, because the automation is gonna hold you accountable toe whatever it is that you're doing. If you said it, because it's almost like set it and forget it at that point to, that's exactly right. And, you know, I wish there was an equivalent and health and Fitness, whereby I sign up to go to the gym and my body just gets healthier without me doing anything. And unfortunately, that's not the case. But it is the case in money management. Once you set it up, it can run forever on. Do you know we advocate keeping an eye on your on your investments in your wealth. But even if you don't like, you know, we've designed a nap, whereby the APP is actually just there as a tool. It's there is a utility. The product is not the app. The product is helping people effort Lee grow and protect their wealth over 10 2030 40 years. I want to touch on that. This idea of health and fitness, you know? I mean, we see the rise of peloton and their growth, and they've simplified fitness. They've brought the community into the home. They've got the accountabilities with Ian structures and the community and all of the content. How is your background given use? Let's say a different perspective than the traditional banker. And because I know that you've spent time it Fitbit the global head of business development for fit pay and Samsung and Visa. What opportunities do you see? Speaking of fitness, to align a person's financial well being with their physical well being or their their financial well being with their mental? Because it's all interconnected. Yeah, there's there's actually a lot of research that shows that people's the people's psychology and behavior around. Health and fitness is very similar to how they think about personal finance. I'd say from my perspective, my my background academically is in psychology. I'm not an engineer, and I think a lot of what I what I observe in the market is a lot of Fintech founders are engineers, and they approach the problem off behavior from a very engineering mindset. And they look to rationalize and bring logic to what is ultimately a psychological problem. So we talked about this before you switch on the mic, but I'll say it again. If you were solving for people's lack of budgeting, a rational approach would be, well, let's build a better budgeting tool. And to me, that's like saying, Well, the way we're going to solve for more people going to the gym is we're gonna build better gyms on The problem is not lack of infrastructure. The problem is lack of motivation. So what we need to solve for is the lack of motivation, not the lack of infrastructure. Andi, that's really our approach is to solve for the motivational issues. And one of the things I learned at Fitbit, which I think Fitbit really did did amazingly well is create. They managed to abstract fitness away from being about, you know, being too personal, and the 10,000 step challenge that they popularized was actually created by a Japanese scientists. Fitbit just sort of grabbed it is this nominal number and that gave you an opportunity to understand your personal level of fitness in a very vague but nevertheless important way. You know, am I Am I hitting my 10,000 step target? And that was very, very powerful. And then they created all sorts of, you know, behavioral rewards and ways of engaging. But it was really centered on that idea of extrapolating away from your very personal information to something that everybody could talk about. 10,000 steps. Did you hit it? Are you 20,000 steps, etcetera, etcetera. We had the same thinking that one of the big differences between health and fitness and finances that people tend to be very open about talking about health and fitness. You can walk into any bar... the world and say, Did you see the game last night? And you can have a conversation. Most people can't ask their spouse what they spent their credit card on last month. It Z you know, it's deeply ingrained in us that we don't share that information, so people are very closed around personal finance, but they're very open manner, sport and fitness. So that that's why the number one sponsor of all sports in the world. The banks, there's there's there's barely a sporting event which is not sponsored by someone in financial services or a bank. And they know that this is, you know, they know that this is an easy way to engage with people in personal finance. So we were thinking, How do we How do we maybe create a platform for future engagement in a similar way? And what is the information That way came across this discovery, which is the information we all need, which is really about How well is my money working for me in the same way as you know? Am I hitting? How how fit am I How financially fit? Um, I there really is no way of measuring that without giving away information people aren't prepared to give. And the banks don't help us because they're not interested in telling us how much interest we earn because it's two cents. So one of the primary differences between what are wrapped and most financial lapses. The first information you see at the top of the page is we tell you how much money your money earned for you, and you contract that you can look into it in detail. How much money came from cash back, how much money came from interest and how much money came from dividends. We calculated that most people in our customer segment should be hitting around 100 to $200 definitely over $100 of passive income from those three sources every month. And if you're under $100 you need, you know it's worth looking at. Why is it because you're not saving enough? Is it because you don't have the right dividend mix or whatever it might be? But, you know, we allow that to be interrogated. We encourage it to be interrogated, and it's the one piece of information you need to know about how financially fit you are. But it's the one piece of information no financial institution currently gives you. Technology has transformed our world, and digital has changed the way consumers shop for and buy financial services forever. Now, consumers make purchase decisions long before they walk into a branch if they walk into a branch at all. But your financial brand still wants to grow loans and deposits. We get it. Digital growth can feel confusing frustrating and overwhelming for any financial brand marketing and sales leader. But it doesn't have Thio because James Robert wrote the book that guides you every step of the way along your digital growth journey. Visit www dot digital growth dot com to get a preview of his best selling book, Banking on Digital Growth, or order a copy right Now for you and your team from Amazon. Inside you'll find a strategic marketing manifesto that was written to transform financial brands, and it is packed full of practical and proven insights you can start using today to confidently generate 10 times more loans and deposits. Now back to the show. Yeah, it's about visualizing progress. I love the analogy of the 10,000 steps because I could tell you when when our schools shut down because of co vid on my wife and I. We have four kids and she's She was at home with the kids helping them with school, and she was saying 10,000 steps. She was crushing like 20,000 steps a day just in the house, walking between all of them and on their computers and laptops. But I like that you're visualizing the progress in your and that helps to make somewhat of the intangible tangible. Yeah, and it And it does provide coming back to your point some of that dopamine hit like, you know what? I'm I'm moving down this journey. I'm on the right path. Yeah, I'm going. And And speaking of making the intangible tangible on getting a little bit more into your background to from looking at this from a psychological perspective and not an engineering perspective because they're two vastly different ways of looking at...

...the world. I like how you've created a commemorative five outs coin to celebrate the launch of unified money because I think that this coin is away. It attracted me because it makes the the intangible tangible, the intangible of digital tangible. And and so I have to ask, What's the idea behind the coin And what's the story of the turtle on the Well, I could talk about the turtle so the turtles become are slightly unofficial mascot. And the reason is that we rejected the convention off affluent debit and credit cards being made of metal. It's like, you know, at what point did we decide that we should be buying financial instruments based on based on their weight, it seems indicative off. A lot of the have to be polite. A lot of ways the industry seeks to confuse consumers or deflect consumers from the real value of their products. So this is a, you know, credit cards completely commoditized. And yet some people are paying $550 for a quote unquote metal card. There's even a car. You see quite a lot of advertising now, where people are advertising how heavy that card is compared to others. And again, why do we think that buying choosing your credit card based on its weight is a sensible thing to do? It's so far from the utility of the product and the way we should be thinking of financial products as tools for our benefit. And that's indicative of a lot of the marketing around financial services. So we completely rejected that way. We're working with some industry vendors, and we saw the opportunity to be the first to use recovered ocean plastic in the ocean bound plastic from a company called C P. I. R. Cards are made up off plastic picked off beaches and and rivers and and turned into credit cards. We also partner with the Ocean Foundation so that every time the cards were used, we donate to the Ocean Foundation. We did that because it seemed like a good thing to be to be doing, You know why? Why not use ocean recovered plastic when there is a choice to do it, as opposed to brand new plastic and have some small impact on the environment, as well as tie in with an NGO that we really like what they do? So the symbol off the recovered ocean plastic card from C. P. I. Is is a little turtle, and that became our unofficial symbol. And the reason we're doing the coin is, um, because I personally like the cognitive dissonance between having a very digital product and then linking it to, you know, silver gold coins, which I think like 3000 years old and having a token of physical token of representation off the products. And again, you know, I looked at other fintech launching and they were launching with wait list programs where you could get five places above the other person because you introduced someone to the wait list and all of this sort of digital fakery, and I wanted to give our customers really value for real work. E I love. Yeah, And I love how you said that this could even be a family heirloom or, ah, collectible items. I just to me, I I caught up. I picked up on that and that's why I wanted to ask about both the coin and the turtle. And I saw the turtle. And now that you've made that connection for me, I saw that with your cards being made from from from recovered plastic in the ocean. And that's just another perspective of this idea of being purpose driven as a brand. And to that point, I'm gonna come back because because I think purpose really aligned so well with this idea of personas and and niche market segments. And I know that you have a very focused niche market segment around high income professionals, doctors, vet, veterinarians, dentist, pharmacist, lawyers, architect. It takes a lot of courage because it's it's very different than say what a traditional financial brand would do. Think about because you know a lot of them, you know they want to be all things to all...

...people. But you said no, we're gonna focus on this particular niche. Market number one waigo Niche number two How has snitching down? Helped in product development, messaging, positioning, etcetera. So if you look at the challenger or digital bank market in the US today, there's about 90 different brands, almost all of whom are focused on the same customer segment with more or less the same products with same customer segment is the under banked, the unbanked, the chimes, the borrows. The Manz owes the revolution and 20 sixes and 85 other brands and almost nobody on. Certainly not in any focused way looking at the 15 million high earning millennials in the market. And these air, this is, you know, these consumers are there are very particular profile, you know, the high earning. Yes, they tend to have very high debt. So the average debt student debt in the markets 30,000. The average doctor is 260,000. They have no assets. They live in very expensive places like New York, San Francisco, Seattle, Austin, Los Angeles and they have very high expenses and and they're highly taxed. So they're quite a difficult customer group to lend money to, for example, buying a house, buying a car. They have very busy, stressful lives, and they overwhelmingly bank with a big brand. Banks and the big brown banks love that because the average consumer earning more than 100 and $60,000 a year has 42,000 sitting in a checking account, probably with Bank of America or Chase earning 1000.1% interest on it will sit there and grow for the next 15 16 years, which is the average amount of time people spend with the primary bank account and that is serving the consumer very, very poorly indeed. It's not helping them to build and grow their wealth quite the opposite. But because it's hidden because it's it's it's not physically taking money out of your pocket. It's it's sort of taking it from source. We don't feel the loss in the same way. So that's why I say our biggest competitors is not the big brand banks. Our biggest competitors is consumer inertia. That's the psychological barrier that we need to overcome in consumer's minds and for them to recognize that a hidden losses still a loss and has a very real and material impact on their life over time of their financial life. Over time, you're helping shine light into maybe the unknown crevices to help the unwary become aware of what some of these opportunities might be that they aren't even realizing that they're missing for two. To your point, to bring it all back together, these air sins of omission. And because you have a niche market and and something you mentioned before to having a comedy sketch team which, which, which I found very interesting, this has given you the opportunity to think differently to position differently. Um, and I wanted to move this to a moment around influencer marketing. This was a subject that J. Paultre and I discussed earlier in Episode 51 J. And I were discussing it from or of the B two b side, a commercial banker play bank serving the SNB space. But from an influencer marketing direction. You're taking the consumer approach, and I know that this was in some something that was inspired by step. So how did step inspire this thinking? And then what is the approach with influencer marketing to humanize this brand for you guys. So the reason we use comedy really satire is because you know there is there. It's fun on bits different, and there's two. There's two reasons, actually. The first is that we recognize of the 15 million affluent millennials in the US At least half of them are never going to move their bank. And it doesn't matter what you say or do they just not going to do it. So the people who are naturally going to be interested in us in common bond our 1st 1,500,000 customers are gonna be natural contrarians thes gonna be people who are independent of mind and action. So we have permission to be different on appeal to those natural contrarians by being a contrarian brand.

So, for example, we wrote a block post saying 10 reasons why you should never move your bank because natural contrarians don't do what they're told. They do the opposite of what they're told. So we switched it round. We wrote another one, which was 10 reasons never to use a neo bank on. Do you know, you just don't see chase or Citi taking that type of tongue in cheek approach. We kind of compete with the big grand banks in conventional marketing. Chase alone spends $2.6 billion a year. That's more than Apple spends globally on marketing. And they have to do that because they have an undifferentiated product that delivers very, very poor value for money. The top 10 big grand banks spent over 15 billion. Yeah, I'm gonna pause you on that. I just want to I want to reiterate that point for the dear listener. Chase spends 2.6 billion per year every year in the U. S. That's more than assets for the vast majority of community financial brand. So just let that sink in for imagine what better use that money could be put to. Absolutely. So not only do we have permission to be different, I feel that we have to be different. So why do we use comedy or satire? Because it's very easy to, you know, there's a fine line between insult and education, so I could tell someone with the Chase Sapphire Reserve card that that's a very poor decision on their part. It's It's a very expensive card. It's generally, I think, on a good proportion of its customers, its's affluent signaling rather than anything else. It's become a rite of passage for young executives when they hit the 100 150,000 income level because all their friends have got Chase Sapphire Reserve, so they go get it two or three years later. Most of them dump it because they realized it didn't change their life for a better and they didn't get, you know, it made no real difference. They were still just buying for stuff and particularly in co vid. You're seeing droves of people leave those affluent travel cards because they realized the points of worthless. No one sees a metal card when they're shopping online. On the whole, value proposition is really a house of cards. So you know, it's easy to insult someone in particularly affluent, well educated, successful people don't like to be told they're doing something wrong. It's like, you know, in the worst of bankers or people in financial services who tend to have terrible personal finances, by the way, but they won't be told because they perceive themselves as being pretty competent and expert. So instead we use satire to sow the seeds of doubt that maybe they should be looking at things slightly differently. We created a about nine satirical videos looking at, frankly, the very bizarre relationship that we have with money and big brand banks. And then we actually ended up working with Jason Nash, a comedian based in L. A really funny guy, really professional, really talented that the team that was doing our videos knew him and had worked with him. So we we did like a spoof video interview with him and a young millennial talking about the way he manages his finance. We really positioned him. Is the person who hadn't done it very well and you didn't want to grow up to be like Jason Nash. So the step on the Charlie D'Amelio thing was a bit tongue in cheek, but we talked about it as you know, who's really taking financial advice from a 16 year old multi millionaire. Is that really relevant for you? It said we used a middle aged guy in L. A to give financial advice, which is sort of like the dad figure for the vlog squad. Yes, he's a participant in with Torrey Smith and others. Yeah, and I love. I love that approach, and what you said I think, is key. There's a fine line between insult and education, but what we're trying to do with this content with the satirical content is to sow the seeds of doubt because the person's desire to transform has to be greater than their desire to change. So if anything, you're just making people either a wonder or be wake up to. Is there a better way to managing my money? And I really, really liked that approach is as we wrap up today's conversation and it's been a great one. I I really appreciate the time, the insights, the ideas and the inspirations that you've shared. We're looking ahead whole New Year 2021. What is one piece of advice or...

...recommendation that you would have for others? Let's just say in just a banking space at large toe maximize their digital growth potential because you you are on a digital growth journey already naturally. But what can others do? Because Cove, it has been the forcing function for this industry toe start thinking digital first and in humanizing digital experiences. But what's one piece of advice or recommendation that you could just make for others on their digital growth journey. I think it's about giving back to the Fintech founder community. There's a really vibrant, authentic founder community who are overwhelmingly supportive, full of the most amazing insights, professional personal experiences and incredibly helpful. And, you know, I think it's it's dependent on all of us who benefit from that community to give back as much as we can. And that's how we build better products. Our entire model of what we're building a unified money is all dependent upon the partners. We work with companies like, um, be companies like visa companies like Rails Bank I to see Dr Wealth Gemini. You know there's a list of 2030 companies. Hummingbird for compliance is a service. Soak your unit 21. You know I can, and we've talked Thio, the CEOs and the senior executive, all of these companies and we ended up working with companies because we we found people who wanted our vision to be successful, who had relevant experience, who could be helpful on. I'm hoping I get to the point where maybe I could help others, So that's my 2000 and 21 ambition is to is to give more back to the Fintech founding community than I than I have taken today. I love that perspective, and for those who do what Thio just connect with you to to continue the conversation that we've started today. What's the best way for them to reach out and say Hello, Ben, I linked in I'm pretty pretty public on LinkedIn, and I do my best to respond to every and any Lincoln request. Absolutely well, thank you. Once again, been for joining me and, as always, be well, do good and wash your hands. Thank you for listening to another episode of Banking on Digital Growth with James Robert Ley. Like what you hear. Tell a friend about the podcast and leave us a review on Apple podcasts, Google Podcast or Spotify and subscribe while you're there to get even. Mawr Practical and proven insights. Visit www dot digital growth dot com to grab a preview of James Roberts bestselling book Banking on Digital Growth or order a copy right now for you and your team from Amazon. Inside, you'll find a strategic marketing and sales blueprint framed around 12 key areas of focus that empower you to confidently generate 10 times more loans and deposits until next time, be well and do good.

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