Banking on Digital Growth
Banking on Digital Growth

Episode · 1 year ago

52) #DigitalGrowthJourneys: Wise Investments Just Take the Right Motivation w/ Ben Soppitt

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

We all like buying new things; it’s human nature.  

We know we shouldn’t spend frivolously — but we do anyway.  

Why can’t saving money be as fun as spending it?  

That’s the question that led Ben Soppitt, Founder and CEO at Unifimoney, to create a financial product that motivates people to save.  

What we talked about:

  • How young affluent professionals are being gouged by traditional banks
  • Why poor financial habits are caused by lack of motivation, not lack of infrastructure
  • How Unifimoney makes finance fun 

You can find this interview, and many more, by subscribing to Banking on Digital Growth on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, or here.

...one of the comments you often get isrich people don't need help with their money on. If you're a young doctorearning 152 $100,000 year your golden, you know you don't need help that itcouldn't be further from the from the truth. The other comment I heard earlyon is, but all the banks want those customers, and they, you know, they'revery well served by those customers, and they aren't. They've been gouged bythe big grand banks. You're listening to Banking on DigitalGrowth with James Robert Ley Ah, podcast that empowers financial brandmarketing, sales and leadership teams to maximize their digital growthpotential by generating 10 times more loans and deposits. Today's episode ispart of the digital growth journeys. Siri's, where James Robert uncovers andExplorers some of the industry's biggest digital marketing and salesstories of success. Let's get into the show Greetings in Hello, I am JamesRobert Ley and welcome to the 52nd episode of the Banking on DigitalGrowth podcast. Today's episode is part of the banking on digital growthjourney, Siri's and I'm excited to welcome Ben, Stop it to the show Beenis the founder and CEO of Unify Money. And he is such a great story to tellwith a lot of insights, a lot of his inspiration. I'm inspired by the workthat he is doing. And I hope that you, dear listener, are as well so that youcan apply these insights on your own journey of digital growth. So thank youvery much for joining me today, Ben. Thank you, James. Great to be here.Yeah, you know, when we've already had such a great conversation before we hitthe record button. But when when you reflect back on this great century of2020 looking ahead into 2021 what has you most energized and excited rightnow? So I'm really excited about where we are in our product journey. I'vebeen working on this for so many years. We started designing it out two yearsago, and now 80% of functionality is there. It's a broad vision. It's a youknow, we're designing a fully featured money management portal super app,really in current terminology, and it's taken such a long time to get here, andwe're finally at the point where I can actually now use my unified money appto manage my money. And that's that zoo. To see something go from concept toreality is, um, super exciting. Andi, where a few weeks from going into ouropen enrollment, you know, we're not having a big launch event or launchmoment. It's much more of a rolling process, but we're gonna be starting toinvite customers outside of our Vita as of about 10 days from now. So that'syeah, super exciting. Well, let's talk about that because I think like this isa journey you mentioned. It's two years it. It was conceived on a napkin andthe work you're doing at Unify I want to start. Why is this work important?Let's start there. Let's start with with why is this important for you? SoI e think there's different levels. I mean, there's there's, there'simportant on a personal level on guy. I just reached a point in my career in mylife where I had Mawr ideas that I felt needed to be implemented than I wasfinding companies who shared that vision or get the sort of radicalnature of that vision, and I tried. You know, I I talked to a bunch of people.My assumption was I would take this vision of, ah, money management superapp for high earning young professionals. Andi, it seems soobvious to me that there was a need and a clear opportunity, But everyone kepton launching neo banks with debit cards for underbanked on bass marketconsumers. So, yeah, you know, there was a sort of personal moment of Well,if no one else is going to do it, I...

...have to do it myself. I've never been afounder before. I'm almost 50. So apparently I'm part of diversity instartups because I'm in older founder. Great. And then, you know why is itimportant? I, you know, in my view, for for for the greater economy and greatersociety. And, you know, one of the comments you often get is rich peopledon't need help with their money. When if you're a young doctor earning 152$100,000 year your golden you know you don't need help that it couldn't befurther from the from the truth. The other The other comment I heard earlyon is but all the banks want those customers, and they, you know, they'revery well served by those customers, and they aren't. They've been gouged bythe big grand banks on. If you look at the proportion of people of proportionof millennials who actually investing their money, it's less than a third onthe younger you get below 30. It's even. It's an even smaller, smallerproportion. The vast majority of millennials are keeping their money incash in one form or another, and that money is just dying. There's not adeposit interest rate in the market that that's higher than inflation. Thenet off that is, that hundreds of billions of dollars in earnings andinterest that should be going to this entire community and and it's theMillennials are now the biggest economic community in the market. Andyet hundreds of billions of dollars is being lost to them Every single year wecalculated it was I can't remember what it was now several trillion dollarsover their lifetime because they're not managing their money well and then weneed to ask the question, Why are they not managing the money optimally?Surely it's in their best interest is there intelligent, well educated people,highly motivated people. And the answer is, well, it's really, really hard. Andsecondly, there in busy, stressful jobs with a whole bunch of things happeningall at the same time, Andi hard and complex and the industry not making iteasy. Busy people living their lives is a recipe whereby if no one's holding agun to your head and saying, You need to sort out your finances, you leave itfor a day, a week, a month, a year and suddenly you're you're 35 or 40 andyour 401 K is maxed out. You don't have an emergency fund, something mighthappen or you get married, buy a house and you find yourself needing, you know,or seeking financial security. And you've lost 15 or 20 years, the mostimportant from an investment point of view in terms of off compound growth,the most important years of your investing life. And they just wentright. They just went off and you lost them. And they're not coming back. Yeah,you know, hearing you talk a couple of things that I take away from thatnumber one, you're never too old to start something new. I think one of thegreatest lessons from me, from what I've learned from from Dan Sullivan isalways make your future greater than your past. And the work that you'redoing in the positioning and the communication and you go to market tome seems to be very what I would call purpose driven in fact purposes at theheart of what I teach, which is the digital growth blueprint. Because, youknow, we could sit here and maybe you could talk more about this of theproblems when it comes to because you're focused on this millennialhigher Ning niche market, which will come back to that here in a moment. Butwhen you look at the problems you mentioned, the complexities thatthey're facing and one of the words that we use before was cognitive load.How is that impacting the decisions, even the habits that they have? Becausebecause to your point, you know, people don't think, you know people with moneyhave money problems, but that's not the case. Obviously, when you look at themillennial landscape in this post covered world, what are some of thebiggest problems that you're seeing that you that you're focused onaddressing. So if you look at the sins committed by mass affluent consumers inpersonal finance, they are almost all overwhelmingly sins of omission, notcommission. It's what they don't do that hurts them. They leave moneysitting in a low or no interest bearing...

...deposit account. They don't maximizethe rewards and benefits from there credit card span. They don't dollarcost average, these air, all acts of omission, not commission. And a largepart of the reason is the cognitive load that how complex and hard it is tomake informed good decisions in this market. And there's there's a host ofresearch that shows that when people have too much cognitive load, they endup doing nothing. And doing nothing is benefiting the big brand banks And, youknow, the biggest lie ever told, and maybe the most successful marketingcampaign ever. The banking is free, it's not free. It's just the cost ofhidden. And we should all be asking ourselves if Chase keeps on year afteryear announcing record profits, and yet banking is free. Who's paying? And theanswer is us on. We're paying because in part, the big brand banks are noteconomically incentivized to make saving and investing easy. They'vethey've solved the problem of payments because it's in their economic benefitto make payments as easy as possible. And they know that the easier somethingis, the more people do of it. Which is why uber got rid of the paymentfunctionality. Amazon Go Got rid of the payment functionality. Amazon one click.These are all designed to make paying for stuff easy on this. The statisticsare very, very clear. The easier it is to pay for stuff, the more we buy. Ifyou had $100 in cash versus $100 on a credit card versus $100 on, I don'tknow, some sort of layaway. You're always gonna the further removed youare from the physical act of handing over cash, the more you're gonna buy on.We know that on the banks know that now the banks have no economic incentive tomake saving and investing easy. In fact, they have the opposite because if youcan put your deposits into a Vanguard fund and pay 1000.4% on those chases,earning nothing on that so they have absolutely no economic incentive tomake it easy for you. So what we're trying to do is solve the problem ofcognitive load by doing what uber did. We're taking away the effort so thatour customers, by default on automatically model best practices andpersonal financial management. And we hope that the highest you know, there'sa there's a decent proportion of the 15 million odd, affluent millennials inthe U. S. Market that respond gravitate towards that idea. Well, simplicity isreally the only way to escape complexity and by its inherent nature.Money is extremely complex, and a lot of that is rooted in environment,childhood upbringing, behaviors what they learn, what they think. And sowhen you look at not only the challenges but on the opposite side ofthe coin, it's the opportunities. What are the opportunities? And and one ofthem that you shared with me was almost a forcing function to help peopleestablish new behaviors and new habits through the platform. That's correct.Yes, so we there's there's two things that we're doing well. In fact, there'sa whole number of things, but the two things that tend to stand out thatpeople notice is number one. We're the only bank in the world with a comedysketch team. We're very proud of that and that there's a good reason goodthinking behind that. Whether it works or not is another thing. And the secondis that we force our customers to save and invest. We force them to adopt thebehavior that they should be doing, whether they like it or not. Now,obviously, if they don't like it, they won't be unified money customer. But werequire our customers. We have a minimum contribution. It's only $25 butwe have a minimum contribution into the investment fund. Each month werecommend it's 100 or 200. It could be as high as they want. But if you're aunifying money customer, you are dollar cost averaging. You are investing in acustomized, risk, appropriate, low cost diversified robot fund, and we hopethat by forcing that function, people adopted people. You know the vastmajority of millennials are not investing even fewer below 30. So ifyou take that first step in that we assist and create that forcing function,so they are investing, then we hope...

...that over time they will get theconfidence they will learn by looking and seeing how that balance grows overtime. And if they gravitate towards managing their own equity investments,if they if they gravitate towards crypto will gold or whatever else, thenthat's fantastic. But that first step is the hardest, and that's the stepthat we make mandatory. It's almost like, you know, you go to the gym andyou get your gym membership. That's step one. But then step to. To reallysee some transformation with health for the vast majority of people is to getthe gym membership, plus the trainer. It's consistency as well. Yes, you needThio. The 30% of people who are millennials who invest are notnecessarily investing in a very optimal way. You know, they invest in Januarybecause it's the New Year and they want to get their finance. Or did theyinvest when Bitcoins high or when? Tesler, You know, test is the greatstock of the moment, and that's great fun, and there's no there's a role forthat. But investing should be super boring. At least the vast majority ofthe time, and it's and it's very repetitive. And as human beings, wetend to gravitate towards things that are new and exciting and different andshiny. Object. Yeah, it's like investing is is not designed to be wellsuited to our cognitive behavior on, you know, the way we think in the waywe do. So we are not good at doing complex, repetitive tasks. Technologyis great doing complex, repetitive tasks. So we're simply using technologyand some product design to try and make it as easy as possible. Where we say,you know, saving investing as easiest, paying for a new ver well, investing. Imean, it's another type of a journey, and it's it's like running a marathon.You know, you you start that marathon training program, and unless you'reyou've got an app. Thio. Either a hold you accountable and tell you what youneed to do next, or B you're running with a group. It's very hard to keepthat long term minds that once you get in and I've run multiple marathonbecause once you're getting up to 15 2022 miles before you actually have therace, you can just get tired mentally and say, You know what? It's just notworth it and you fall back on old behaviors. One of the things that thevery well known Spike a logical phenomenon that we're really verypowerless to prevent. When we buy things, we get an instant hit dopamineand it's a dopamine hit. It's like, Oh, I won, I got something, It's great andit's exciting. It doesn't last very long, but that's why it creates thiscycle of sort of dependency in the cycle of reinforcement. You keep onbuying things on Amazon because it's just feeling better and better andbetter, and the only way to retain that. And by the way, this is exactly thesame thing that happens in drugs and alcohol abuse. We get used to that high.We want to keep that high going, which is how people end up spending too much.But when the payoff is maybe 30 or 40 years in the future, there is literallyno dopamine hit in saving investing. So we're already up against itpsychologically and with our natural, you know, biases, human biases that weare predicated to be buying more than we are saving and investing. And if yourecognize that, that's the first step to managing that behavior andovercoming our own psychological limitations awareness. Yeah, it'sawareness, and and then it's It's doing something about it because awarenessdeclines over time is well. And there is a There's another very well known,very well researched psychological phenomenon whereby the further out areward is, the more we discounted. So you know, when you're 20 and you'resmoking because it look makes you look cool in front of girls. That's a veryshort term sort of viewpoint. When you're 80 and you can tell someone,listen, you'll you'll live 10 years longer if you stop smoking and thenlike I don't care. It's too far in the future. Yeah, if you're 80 years oldand someone offers you 10 years more life, you're gonna take that and giveanything for it. And that's the same phenomenon is that it's and we knowthis from pensions, you know? How do...

...you sell pensions to 25 year olds? Thegovernment makes them do it because there's no amount of work you can do toget enough people to save and invest when they're young because they'reinvincible, and they can't imagine a future where they're going to need thatmoney. And so that, you know, we are fighting human nature on We need to useevery tool we can tow. Overcome it. Yeah, so awareness, acceptance, action,accountability and automation automation. I think automation is likeit's the accountability piece of it, because the automation is gonna holdyou accountable toe whatever it is that you're doing. If you said it, becauseit's almost like set it and forget it at that point to, that's exactly right.And, you know, I wish there was an equivalent and health and Fitness,whereby I sign up to go to the gym and my body just gets healthier without medoing anything. And unfortunately, that's not the case. But it is the casein money management. Once you set it up, it can run forever on. Do you know weadvocate keeping an eye on your on your investments in your wealth. But even ifyou don't like, you know, we've designed a nap, whereby the APP isactually just there as a tool. It's there is a utility. The product is notthe app. The product is helping people effort Lee grow and protect theirwealth over 10 2030 40 years. I want to touch on that. This idea of health andfitness, you know? I mean, we see the rise of peloton and their growth, andthey've simplified fitness. They've brought the community into the home.They've got the accountabilities with Ian structures and the community andall of the content. How is your background given use? Let's say adifferent perspective than the traditional banker. And because I knowthat you've spent time it Fitbit the global head of business development forfit pay and Samsung and Visa. What opportunities do you see? Speaking offitness, to align a person's financial well being with their physical wellbeing or their their financial well being with their mental? Because it'sall interconnected. Yeah, there's there's actually a lot of research thatshows that people's the people's psychology and behavior around. Healthand fitness is very similar to how they think about personal finance. I'd sayfrom my perspective, my my background academically is in psychology. I'm notan engineer, and I think a lot of what I what I observe in the market is a lotof Fintech founders are engineers, and they approach the problem off behaviorfrom a very engineering mindset. And they look to rationalize and bringlogic to what is ultimately a psychological problem. So we talkedabout this before you switch on the mic, but I'll say it again. If you weresolving for people's lack of budgeting, a rational approach would be, well,let's build a better budgeting tool. And to me, that's like saying, Well,the way we're going to solve for more people going to the gym is we're gonnabuild better gyms on The problem is not lack of infrastructure. The problem islack of motivation. So what we need to solve for is the lack of motivation,not the lack of infrastructure. Andi, that's really our approach is to solvefor the motivational issues. And one of the things I learned at Fitbit, which Ithink Fitbit really did did amazingly well is create. They managed toabstract fitness away from being about, you know, being too personal, and the10,000 step challenge that they popularized was actually created by aJapanese scientists. Fitbit just sort of grabbed it is this nominal numberand that gave you an opportunity to understand your personal level offitness in a very vague but nevertheless important way. You know,am I Am I hitting my 10,000 step target? And that was very, very powerful. Andthen they created all sorts of, you know, behavioral rewards and ways ofengaging. But it was really centered on that idea of extrapolating away from your verypersonal information to something that everybody could talk about. 10,000steps. Did you hit it? Are you 20,000 steps, etcetera, etcetera. We had thesame thinking that one of the big differences between health and fitnessand finances that people tend to be very open about talking about healthand fitness. You can walk into any bar...

...in the world and say, Did you see thegame last night? And you can have a conversation. Most people can't asktheir spouse what they spent their credit card on last month. It Z youknow, it's deeply ingrained in us that we don't share that information, sopeople are very closed around personal finance, but they're very open manner,sport and fitness. So that that's why the number one sponsor of all sports inthe world. The banks, there's there's there's barely a sporting event whichis not sponsored by someone in financial services or a bank. And theyknow that this is, you know, they know that this is an easy way to engage withpeople in personal finance. So we were thinking, How do we How do we maybecreate a platform for future engagement in a similar way? And what is theinformation That way came across this discovery, which is the information weall need, which is really about How well is my money working for me in thesame way as you know? Am I hitting? How how fit am I How financially fit? Um, Ithere really is no way of measuring that without giving away informationpeople aren't prepared to give. And the banks don't help us because they're notinterested in telling us how much interest we earn because it's two cents.So one of the primary differences between what are wrapped and mostfinancial lapses. The first information you see at the top of the page is wetell you how much money your money earned for you, and you contract thatyou can look into it in detail. How much money came from cash back, howmuch money came from interest and how much money came from dividends. Wecalculated that most people in our customer segment should be hittingaround 100 to $200 definitely over $100 of passive income from those threesources every month. And if you're under $100 you need, you know it'sworth looking at. Why is it because you're not saving enough? Is it becauseyou don't have the right dividend mix or whatever it might be? But, you know,we allow that to be interrogated. We encourage it to be interrogated, andit's the one piece of information you need to know about how financially fityou are. But it's the one piece of information no financial institutioncurrently gives you. Technology has transformed our world, and digital haschanged the way consumers shop for and buy financial services forever. Now,consumers make purchase decisions long before they walk into a branch if theywalk into a branch at all. But your financial brand still wants to growloans and deposits. We get it. Digital growth can feel confusing frustratingand overwhelming for any financial brand marketing and sales leader. Butit doesn't have Thio because James Robert wrote the book that guides youevery step of the way along your digital growth journey. Visit www dotdigital growth dot com to get a preview of his best selling book, Banking onDigital Growth, or order a copy right Now for you and your team from Amazon.Inside you'll find a strategic marketing manifesto that was written totransform financial brands, and it is packed full of practical and proveninsights you can start using today to confidently generate 10 times moreloans and deposits. Now back to the show. Yeah, it's about visualizingprogress. I love the analogy of the 10,000 steps because I could tell youwhen when our schools shut down because of co vid on my wife and I. We havefour kids and she's She was at home with the kids helping them with school,and she was saying 10,000 steps. She was crushing like 20,000 steps a dayjust in the house, walking between all of them and on their computers andlaptops. But I like that you're visualizing the progress in your andthat helps to make somewhat of the intangible tangible. Yeah, and it Andit does provide coming back to your point some of that dopamine hit like,you know what? I'm I'm moving down this journey. I'm on the right path. Yeah,I'm going. And And speaking of making the intangible tangible on getting alittle bit more into your background to from looking at this from apsychological perspective and not an engineering perspective because they'retwo vastly different ways of looking at...

...the world. I like how you've created acommemorative five outs coin to celebrate the launch of unified moneybecause I think that this coin is away. It attracted me because it makes thethe intangible tangible, the intangible of digital tangible. And and so I haveto ask, What's the idea behind the coin And what's the story of the turtle onthe Well, I could talk about the turtle so the turtles become are slightlyunofficial mascot. And the reason is that we rejected the convention offaffluent debit and credit cards being made of metal. It's like, you know, atwhat point did we decide that we should be buying financial instruments basedon based on their weight, it seems indicative off. A lot of the have to bepolite. A lot of ways the industry seeks to confuse consumers or deflectconsumers from the real value of their products. So this is a, you know,credit cards completely commoditized. And yet some people are paying $550 fora quote unquote metal card. There's even a car. You see quite a lot ofadvertising now, where people are advertising how heavy that card iscompared to others. And again, why do we think that buying choosing yourcredit card based on its weight is a sensible thing to do? It's so far fromthe utility of the product and the way we should be thinking of financialproducts as tools for our benefit. And that's indicative of a lot of themarketing around financial services. So we completely rejected that way. We'reworking with some industry vendors, and we saw the opportunity to be the firstto use recovered ocean plastic in the ocean bound plastic from a companycalled C P. I. R. Cards are made up off plastic picked off beaches and andrivers and and turned into credit cards. We also partner with the OceanFoundation so that every time the cards were used, we donate to the OceanFoundation. We did that because it seemed like a good thing to be to bedoing, You know why? Why not use ocean recovered plastic when there is achoice to do it, as opposed to brand new plastic and have some small impacton the environment, as well as tie in with an NGO that we really like whatthey do? So the symbol off the recovered ocean plastic card from C. P.I. Is is a little turtle, and that became our unofficial symbol. And thereason we're doing the coin is, um, because I personally like the cognitivedissonance between having a very digital product and then linking it to,you know, silver gold coins, which I think like 3000 years old and having atoken of physical token of representation off the products. Andagain, you know, I looked at other fintech launching and they werelaunching with wait list programs where you could get five places above theother person because you introduced someone to the wait list and all ofthis sort of digital fakery, and I wanted to give our customers reallyvalue for real work. E I love. Yeah, And I love how you said that this couldeven be a family heirloom or, ah, collectible items. I just to me, I Icaught up. I picked up on that and that's why I wanted to ask about boththe coin and the turtle. And I saw the turtle. And now that you've made thatconnection for me, I saw that with your cards being made from from fromrecovered plastic in the ocean. And that's just another perspective of thisidea of being purpose driven as a brand. And to that point, I'm gonna come backbecause because I think purpose really aligned so well with this idea ofpersonas and and niche market segments. And I know that you have a very focusedniche market segment around high income professionals, doctors, vet,veterinarians, dentist, pharmacist, lawyers, architect. It takes a lot ofcourage because it's it's very different than say what a traditionalfinancial brand would do. Think about because you know a lot of them, youknow they want to be all things to all...

...people. But you said no, we're gonnafocus on this particular niche. Market number one waigo Niche number two Howhas snitching down? Helped in product development, messaging, positioning,etcetera. So if you look at the challenger ordigital bank market in the US today, there's about 90 different brands,almost all of whom are focused on the same customer segment with more or lessthe same products with same customer segment is the under banked, theunbanked, the chimes, the borrows. The Manz owes the revolution and 20 sixesand 85 other brands and almost nobody on. Certainly not in any focused waylooking at the 15 million high earning millennials in the market. And theseair, this is, you know, these consumers are there are very particular profile,you know, the high earning. Yes, they tend to have very high debt. So theaverage debt student debt in the markets 30,000. The average doctor is260,000. They have no assets. They live in very expensive places like New York,San Francisco, Seattle, Austin, Los Angeles and they have very highexpenses and and they're highly taxed. So they're quite a difficult customergroup to lend money to, for example, buying a house, buying a car. They havevery busy, stressful lives, and they overwhelmingly bank with a big brand.Banks and the big brown banks love that because the average consumer earningmore than 100 and $60,000 a year has 42,000 sitting in a checking account,probably with Bank of America or Chase earning 1000.1% interest on it will sitthere and grow for the next 15 16 years, which is the average amount of timepeople spend with the primary bank account and that is serving theconsumer very, very poorly indeed. It's not helping them to build and growtheir wealth quite the opposite. But because it's hidden because it's it'sit's not physically taking money out of your pocket. It's it's sort of takingit from source. We don't feel the loss in the same way. So that's why I sayour biggest competitors is not the big brand banks. Our biggest competitors isconsumer inertia. That's the psychological barrier that we need toovercome in consumer's minds and for them to recognize that a hidden lossesstill a loss and has a very real and material impact on their life over timeof their financial life. Over time, you're helping shine light into maybethe unknown crevices to help the unwary become aware of what some of theseopportunities might be that they aren't even realizing that they're missing fortwo. To your point, to bring it all back together, these air sins ofomission. And because you have a niche market and and something you mentionedbefore to having a comedy sketch team which, which, which I found veryinteresting, this has given you the opportunity to think differently toposition differently. Um, and I wanted to move this to a moment aroundinfluencer marketing. This was a subject that J. Paultre and I discussedearlier in Episode 51 J. And I were discussing it from or of the B two bside, a commercial banker play bank serving the SNB space. But from aninfluencer marketing direction. You're taking the consumer approach, and Iknow that this was in some something that was inspired by step. So how didstep inspire this thinking? And then what is the approach with influencermarketing to humanize this brand for you guys. So the reason we use comedyreally satire is because you know there is there. It's fun on bits different,and there's two. There's two reasons, actually. The first is that werecognize of the 15 million affluent millennials in the US At least half ofthem are never going to move their bank. And it doesn't matter what you say ordo they just not going to do it. So the people who are naturally going to beinterested in us in common bond our 1st 1,500,000 customers are gonna benatural contrarians thes gonna be people who are independent of mind andaction. So we have permission to be different on appeal to those naturalcontrarians by being a contrarian brand.

So, for example, we wrote a block postsaying 10 reasons why you should never move your bank because naturalcontrarians don't do what they're told. They do the opposite of what they'retold. So we switched it round. We wrote another one, which was 10 reasons neverto use a neo bank on. Do you know, you just don't see chase or Citi takingthat type of tongue in cheek approach. We kind of compete with the big grandbanks in conventional marketing. Chase alone spends $2.6 billion a year.That's more than Apple spends globally on marketing. And they have to do thatbecause they have an undifferentiated product that delivers very, very poorvalue for money. The top 10 big grand banks spent over 15 billion. Yeah, I'mgonna pause you on that. I just want to I want to reiterate that point for thedear listener. Chase spends 2.6 billion per year every year in the U. S. That'smore than assets for the vast majority of community financial brand. So justlet that sink in for imagine what better use that money could be put to.Absolutely. So not only do we have permission to be different, I feel thatwe have to be different. So why do we use comedy or satire? Because it's veryeasy to, you know, there's a fine line between insult and education, so Icould tell someone with the Chase Sapphire Reserve card that that's avery poor decision on their part. It's It's a very expensive card. It'sgenerally, I think, on a good proportion of its customers, its'saffluent signaling rather than anything else. It's become a rite of passage foryoung executives when they hit the 100 150,000 income level because all theirfriends have got Chase Sapphire Reserve, so they go get it two or three yearslater. Most of them dump it because they realized it didn't change theirlife for a better and they didn't get, you know, it made no real difference.They were still just buying for stuff and particularly in co vid. You'reseeing droves of people leave those affluent travel cards because theyrealized the points of worthless. No one sees a metal card when they'reshopping online. On the whole, value proposition is really a house of cards.So you know, it's easy to insult someone in particularly affluent, welleducated, successful people don't like to be told they're doing somethingwrong. It's like, you know, in the worst of bankers or people in financialservices who tend to have terrible personal finances, by the way, but theywon't be told because they perceive themselves as being pretty competentand expert. So instead we use satire to sow the seeds of doubt that maybe theyshould be looking at things slightly differently. We created a about ninesatirical videos looking at, frankly, the very bizarre relationship that wehave with money and big brand banks. And then we actually ended up workingwith Jason Nash, a comedian based in L. A really funny guy, really professional,really talented that the team that was doing our videos knew him and hadworked with him. So we we did like a spoof video interview with him and ayoung millennial talking about the way he manages his finance. We reallypositioned him. Is the person who hadn't done it very well and you didn'twant to grow up to be like Jason Nash. So the step on the Charlie D'Ameliothing was a bit tongue in cheek, but we talked about it as you know, who'sreally taking financial advice from a 16 year old multi millionaire. Is thatreally relevant for you? It said we used a middle aged guy in L. A to givefinancial advice, which is sort of like the dad figure for the vlog squad. Yes,he's a participant in with Torrey Smith and others. Yeah, and I love. I lovethat approach, and what you said I think, is key. There's a fine linebetween insult and education, but what we're trying to do with this contentwith the satirical content is to sow the seeds of doubt because the person'sdesire to transform has to be greater than their desire to change. So ifanything, you're just making people either a wonder or be wake up to. Isthere a better way to managing my money? And I really, really liked thatapproach is as we wrap up today's conversation and it's been a great one.I I really appreciate the time, the insights, the ideas and theinspirations that you've shared. We're looking ahead whole New Year 2021. Whatis one piece of advice or...

...recommendation that you would have forothers? Let's just say in just a banking space at large toe maximizetheir digital growth potential because you you are on a digital growth journeyalready naturally. But what can others do? Because Cove, it has been theforcing function for this industry toe start thinking digital first and inhumanizing digital experiences. But what's one piece of advice orrecommendation that you could just make for others on their digital growthjourney. I think it's about giving back to the Fintech founder community.There's a really vibrant, authentic founder community who areoverwhelmingly supportive, full of the most amazing insights, professionalpersonal experiences and incredibly helpful. And, you know, I think it'sit's dependent on all of us who benefit from that community to give back asmuch as we can. And that's how we build better products. Our entire model ofwhat we're building a unified money is all dependent upon the partners. Wework with companies like, um, be companies like visa companies likeRails Bank I to see Dr Wealth Gemini. You know there's a list of 2030companies. Hummingbird for compliance is a service. Soak your unit 21. Youknow I can, and we've talked Thio, the CEOs and the senior executive, all ofthese companies and we ended up working with companies because we we foundpeople who wanted our vision to be successful, who had relevant experience,who could be helpful on. I'm hoping I get to the point where maybe I couldhelp others, So that's my 2000 and 21 ambition is to is to give more back tothe Fintech founding community than I than I have taken today. I love thatperspective, and for those who do what Thio just connect with you to tocontinue the conversation that we've started today. What's the best way forthem to reach out and say Hello, Ben, I linked in I'm pretty pretty public onLinkedIn, and I do my best to respond to every and any Lincoln request.Absolutely well, thank you. Once again, been for joining me and, as always, bewell, do good and wash your hands. Thank you for listening to anotherepisode of Banking on Digital Growth with James Robert Ley. Like what youhear. Tell a friend about the podcast and leave us a review on Apple podcasts,Google Podcast or Spotify and subscribe while you're there to get even. MawrPractical and proven insights. Visit www dot digital growth dot com to graba preview of James Roberts bestselling book Banking on Digital Growth or ordera copy right now for you and your team from Amazon. Inside, you'll find astrategic marketing and sales blueprint framed around 12 key areas of focusthat empower you to confidently generate 10 times more loans anddeposits until next time, be well and do good.

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