Banking on Digital Growth
Banking on Digital Growth

Episode · 1 year ago

11) #ExponentialInsights: If You Weren’t Already Thinking About Mindstates, You Should Now w/ Will Leach

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Financial brands tend to try to appeal to logic in their marketing. 

I get it, money is a huge practical concern, so it makes sense.

But in reality, there is nothing more emotional. If your marketing doesn’t consider that, then you need to learn more about mindstates.

And there’s no better teacher than my latest guest, Will Leach, CEO of TriggerPoint Design, a behavioral research and design consultancy. 

His book, “Marketing to Mindstates,” lays out the case for why you need to apply behavior design to research and marketing if you want to thrive in today’s complex world. 

Will went over:

-Why today’s marketing landscape is all about context

-How mindstates have shifted under COVID-19

-How financial brands can directly employ mindstates in their strategy

You can find this interview, and many more, by subscribing to Banking on Digital Growth on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, or here.

And what you find out, especiallyin the last decade, is that we are influenced by contexts. We allhave attitudes, we have beliefs. I've my own belief system, James andRobert, you have yours. We all have attitudes and preferences, things likethat. We've known this for a long time. What a mind state isare these moments when context, like the current context were all in right now, from a global perspective, where context influences our attitudes, are beliefs.You are listening to banking on digital growth with James Robert Lay, a podcastthat empowers financial brand, marketing, sales and leadership teams to maximize their digitalgrowth potential by generating ten times more loans and deposits. Today's episode is partof the exponential insight series, where James Robert Interviews the industry's top marketing,sales and FINTECH leaders, sharing practical wisdom to exponentially elevate you and your team. Let's get into the show. Greetings in Hello, I am James RobertLay, and welcome to another episode of the banking on digital growth podcast.Today's episode is part of the exponential insight series and I'm excited to welcome myfriend will leach to the show. Hello will, Hello James Robert, thankyou for having me. I appreciate you well. You know, you arethe best selling author of marketing to mind states and you're the founder in theCEO, of trigger point, which is a behavioral research and Design Consultancy MindStates. It's exactly what I believe every financial brand marketing team sells, teamleadership team should be thinking about right now, in this time of chaos, confusionand crisis. Can you just help frame up what are these mind statesin the first place? For some just general context. Yeah, here's theidea. You know. So for the last twenty years I've studied human behaviorand the psychology of messaging and what you...

...find out, especially in the lastdecade, is that we are influenced by context. We all have attitudes,we have beliefs. I've my own belief system, James and Robert, youhave yours. We all have attitudes and preferences, things like that. We'veknown this for a long time. What a mind state is are these momentswhen context, like the current context were all in right now, from aglobal perspective or context influences are attitudes, our beliefs, our values, thingslike that. So a mind state takes into consideration these moments and these momentscan last anywhere in between a couple of minutes to where I think these momentsgoing to last for a couple of months, given the new environment with political andbiological and financial markets. So specifically mind state are these temporary moments ofemotional arousal. And when you have emotional also you're much more susceptible to emotionaldecisionmaking, and so it's kind of like the Holy Grail, if you're inmarketing, of understanding why emotional marketing works. It's because you're tapping into a psychologicalmind state. If you don't know the mind state, you know amuch better way of engaging with consumers. I love that perspective because it's veryclosely aligned with what we teach here at the Digital Growth Institute. People wantthree things in life. They want to feel healthy, they want to feelwealthy and they want to feel just good about life in general. Where Ifind the challenges for many financial brand marketing cells and leadership teams is that they'rereally driven by not the emotive but more of the logical thinking. And itmakes sense when you're handling people's money, you want to be logical, youwant to be rational. So that creates some gap and that creates some tension, particularly with the way that financial brands go to market and communicate emotion.What would your recommendation there? I would just first off say that there isnothing more emotional in this world. Well, very few things are more emotional thanmoney, because money provides us the...

...ability to provide Nurturans to our families, to provide protection to our families, to provide esteem to our families.So not to say that that money cannot be functional in nature, because yes, we have budgets, we have to live by, we are trying togrow money, but there is deep, deep, deep emotion that money provides. So first thing I would tell anybody is that if you're in the financialservice of space, you need to elevate your thinking above and beyond just therational desires to people have to earn more money. But what is the emotionalbenefits of having more money? And I'm telling you, motivational psychology gives youa lot of great understanding of how to use money in a way that benefitsyou in highly, highly emotional ways. Like I said Pipe, providing foryour family, providing protection, etc. Yeah, I know this. Youknow sometimes puts people off, but I think it's the more honest conversations thatwe have and lean into those hard conversations, the more that we can make progressas a society. Like the idea of poverty. A lot of theresearch that we've done is poverty and people who struggle with budgets. It isa mindset to a degree, but it's it's also somewhat environmental, which canbe tied back to mindset. People, necessary, don't necessarily have a savingsproblem. I find people have more of a spending problem and you know theway that they make these decisions. Right. I would agree with you. Ithink the first thing I think about as it relates to understanding the emotionsand helping people make the emotions of people making financial decisions, but also understandinghow to help people make better financial decisions, is understanding goal theory, which inmy book it's laid out one of the chapters. But this idea ofunderstanding people's goals and if I understood not those easy, easy couples. Iwant to save money, I want to make more money. That's easy stuff. It's more the emotional purpose behind those goals, like we just said.If we can ladder up to that, I'm telling you there is a largewe can provide great benefit to society if we could just help people understand theirtrue goals for money, and it's not to save more money or to makemore money. There's something much more powerful...

...than that, and you will getto that goal by saving money or making more money. Yeah, it's likereaching your full potential. In I'm seeing a lot of that. If we'regoing to pull context, and I love your point of context, I speakand talk and write and teach a lot about context and content. You gotto overlay the two in contextually with the environment and the way that we're seeingthings right now. You know this volatile, uncertain, complex, ambiguous time thatyou've written about. What are the three things that people are looking forand how? And how is that different than what it would have been,say, if we're having this conversation, you know, in two thousand andnineteen. Yeah, it's an amazing evolution in our market has taken place inthe last two weeks and so my company studies brands and Financial Services, consumerpackage goods, restaurants, pharmaceuticals. So I see lots of different mind states, necessarily broad. Mindset's very broad, and so when I typically do apiece of research for a client, I find that there is one or twomind states out of we have a total of eighteen that we talked about inthe book that a category is really driven by. And so what I'll tellmy clients I'll say, listen, once you do this piece of research,you're good. You don't have to change, because categories don't tend to change dramatically, so that you can use this piece of research for years. Yep, that all changed two weeks ago, because now what we're seeing in allof our research, regardless of category, and we've done stuff and travel,we've done stuff with pet food, we've done stuff with retail all the lastthree weeks, that now there are three overall kind of strong goals that everybodyhas, regardless of what decision you're making, what category you're in, etc.And so I started about a week ago saying everybody, things just change. Your segmentation is now dated, your your brand story can now be tweakedbecause everybody feels these three things, and three things are people are seeking somuch uncertainty in the market place right now...

...across are we going to have ajob? Am I going to get sick? What's gonna Happen in politics? DoI know? How do I protect my family? That? I'm tellingyou that there are three things across everything that we're saying, and the firstone is to feel safe. And they're not in rest necessarily in order,but safety is a very strong goal that we all have and people are veryworried about safe, whether it's financial safety or it's just physical safety. Security. That security. Right after that is control. People don't feeling your control, yea of their situation, and so people desire control in any category.And then, lastly, release. We're finding is that these moments of release, we call them, kind of in the consumer package good space will saythings like people want to relax and unwine because there's so much uncertainty in thenews at our jobs that you want moments to just tune out all that andjust get a release that emotional yes, those three things are across any category. I'm seeing a category yet that doesn't need to play in one of thosethree things. So we've got safety, security, we've got a sense ofagency or control, in the need to release or just relax, kind ofescape the complexity, escape the confusion, and everything's going to be okay,and a lot of I see this fear. Fear is playing tremendously into this narrativeand when people are fearful, people don't necessarily make the best choices ormake the best decisions. What are the opportunities for financial brands to help peopleovercome the fear, whether it be real or just simply perceived? Yeah,so I think it kind of depends on where you are or where your customeris in kind of they're in their financial journey. Yes, so we've donesome research with a couple of institutions and we've seen that there is a patternin mind states. Now, this is all pre right, corona, butI don't know how much is going to change, to be honest with you, because these the these these mind states...

...kind of fit into what I justtalked about. The is are for security, control and release. So what we'veseen is people who are new to money. Let's just say you're sixteenyears old and you're just getting your first paycheck and you go all the waythrough college and maybe you're just starting out in your career. People desire tofeel safe, that they're not spending their money or being, how do Ibeing screwed a special good thing. Games are recourse, but they're scared thatI'm am I spending my mind money wisely? Am I being am I'm overpaying forthings, I have to live on a budget, etc. So Iwould say that for people new in their money and they don't feel very competentyet, they haven't just had a lot of money exposure, two investments yetright, I would I would say to anybody who serving that client and customer, you're safe in our hands. We're not going to let you make abig mistake. So you're going to prevent them from making a big mistake.We call that cautious security. So the the solution there, if I may, is a financial brand might be able to communicate. We're going to guideyou, we're going to teach you, we're going to coach you every stepof the way. You don't have to do this by yourself. I wouldespecially say the first one. Now, when you say guide and coach,that is the next stage. So you're getting into the next stage. That'scalled cautious. We call it cautious competence. As you get a little bit ofbackground with running maybe your own budget, you starting you're starting to buy slightlyhigher products, slightly more expensive products. Sorry, then some desire more competence. That's where I think if you were to look at somebody's net portor the portfolio do, you would look at them say, okay, thisperson feels like this. There will be some that want that guidance. Butthe early stage people are can just going, I want to know that you're protectingme, your security systems are in place, that you're not going toallow volatility to hurt me to a point where I can, I can causeharm to me or my family. Then you go into competence. It's interestingthat we're talking about that idea of competence because some of the research that we'vebeen digging into as of late, before all of this coronavirus, was aroundfinancial education, of financial literacy, and...

...how that could actually be hurting morepeople and harming more people because it gives them a fall a false sense ofI know this stuff, but in reality it's so complex, and that's wherethat idea of coaching and at that next level, that next stage for peoplewho want to level up. I really like that. Continue, please.So then after that you find that when you get into middle management. Solet's just talk about maybe you're starting a family, you're starting to get likemaybe benefits. I'm sorry not, but if it's bonuses, it's into theyear, et CETERA. You'll start seeing that people want to maximize gains.They want to maximize their return on their investments in the stock market, intoreal estate. That's when they start making their first real investments. That iswhen we start talking about we call optimistic achievement, and that's the person whodesires to maximize their potential. We just kind of talked a bit about that. So you would message very differently to that person, because this person isn'tso scared that they're going to make a big mistake. They're more about,okay, I've been in it for a while. They may be in themid S. I want to know I have a limited window of earning powerwhere I have to make the next thirty to forty years enough for me toprovide for my family, maybe provide front parents and also provide for myself longterm. They may be about maximizing their ability to gain gain gains are willingto take on more risk, etc. So, if I was again atthose types of people, I would start thinking about positioning my my messaging orpositioning my brand around maximizing your chance for greater returns. However, yes,now we're now in this new world where right now people main I'm not sureabout the messaging right now for a middle manager, because they any thinking,am I gonna have a job? Middle Management's going to be hurts the middleclass. And so now I'm if I was in that space, I maystart talking and bringing more cautious more security, saying under this circumstances, next eighteenmonths, we're here for you and we're going to manage the volatility.We're going to manage to where you can still maximize your growth, but we'realways going to be making sure you maintain what growth we were able to bringtogether. Does that make sense? Now? Makes Perfect Sense. And you know, one of one of my favorite...

...examples of a financial brand applying thisis tropical financial out of Florida. They develop the program over the last yearcalled get beyond money and it is a money coaching program and it was rootedin consumer research and insights. They tried to get this program off the groundtwo years in a row, but faltered and finally was I'm glad they keptpushing forward because they are position now, in this time of volatility, tohelp people get beyond money now, I think for them maybe, you know, coming back to that point of security, because here's something that you've written aboutthat that we could could go down is the idea of promotion versus afocus on the preventative nature of communication. This is really going to be abig transformation, as we've kind of like danced around it. You gave agreat example of a recommendation for chase in a recent linkedin article. Technology hastransformed our world and digital has changed the way consumers shop for and buy financialservices forever. Now consumers make purchase decisions long before they walk into a branch, if they walk into a branch at all. But your financial brand stillwants to grow loans and deposits. We get it. Digital growth can feelconfusing, frustrating and overwhelming for any financial brand marketing and sales leader. Butit doesn't have to, because James Robert wrote the book that guides you everystep of the way along your digital growth journey. Visit www dot digital growthcomto get a preview of banking on digital growth. It is a strategic marketingmanifesto that was written to say financial brands, and it is packed full of actical, improven insights you can use to confidently generate ten times more loans anddeposits. Now back to the show. What you find in the literature?So I studied behavioral science and there's this...

...concept called regulatory theory, regulatory fitthere. You don't worry about that for your for your listeners and anything.What they do really need to know is that we all approach our goals andwanted two ways. One way is called promotion, meaning that we are seekingto maximize gains. That's our strategy to reach our goal. So think aboutyou are swing for the fences, and this mind state. You're going toswing for the fences. You'RE gonna look for brands, messages, strategies totell me, if I want to reach this goal, whatever financial goal youhave, my best way of reaching that is to find a company that willhelp me maximize my chances of successful reaching the goal. Swing for the fences, more innovation, etc. Then you have another group of people that willuse a prevention mind state, and what they will do is they think thebest way to reach their goals is to limit risk and they're going to lookfor brands, they're going to look for companies, messages, strategies that tellthem if you go down this path, you are less likely to lose money. Same goal, right your but you are going to approach it in slightlydifferent ways and it's a small change. So think about almost half glass,half empty, half glassful. People have a natural tendence, see, tomove in one of the two directions and what we're seeing right now is becausethere's so much uncertainty in the market place that there is a strong shift forprevention. Like people want to get, want to maintain what they have.Yes, Um, it's been irrational at this point after two weeks, butyou know what, I'm not so sure in another two weeks, for notall going to be thinking ourselves the same thing. So I think that companiesneed to start messaging, especially in this space right now, where there's somuch volatility, so much uncertainty around prevention. Your job is to tell people ifyou choose me, you are less likely to experience risk or shock oranything that could mitigate your ability to reach your goals and I Gilly, Ican tell you how many financial brands and...

...marketing team sells, teams, leadershipteams. I've gone to battle with over this because you know, from whatI see, sometimes the perspective behavior economics, people are more likely to take anaction to avoid a loss than they might be to achieve a gain.And I think of like a headline, and particularly for a couple of clientsthat we've worked with. They have something called a quick savings quiz calculator thatsomeone can can input. You Know How many credit cards they have, howmany mortgages, how many auto loans, how many personal loans, and ifthey were to move their money to this new financial brand, this is howmuch money the financial brand could help and save. We've experimented with a Btesting transitioning from take the quick savings quid to see how much you we mightbe able to help you save to take the quick savings quiz to see howmuch money we might be able to help you stop losing. When we wentto the to the negative connotation, we actually saw more conversions. Yeah,so I did a study years ago, an experiment where I looked at couponslightly different thing. But it's going to it's going to talk about the sameidea. Coupons almost always say save a dollar, save a dollar, savea dollar, very prevention. What we found is it for new innovations forthis one company. Rather than sayings save a dollar, we said get adollar off, very small font on off, but get a dollar was the promotionway of talking about it and we saw a to x lift and couponredemptions. I did nothing different except for change those words because it fit thenatural path of what people wanted in that moment. Context matters, and sothat's so so those small little things. I would tell anybody listening this.They're small changes in words. That's all it is. But it just feelsnatural in a time where we feel very uncertained with organizations and and what's happeningin the world, things that feel natural intuitive are going to play out muchbetter. It's going to cause lower anxiety and I think for me the biggestchallenge for financial brand marketing, sales and leadership teams is they're so busy doingall of this stuff they're stuck in the...

...trenches, they're inside the bottle andno harm no file to them, but those small little changes. If you'recurrently like just working and doing you don't take time to stop, pause,think, reevaluate, it's going to be very hard to make. But thisthe small, incremental changes that can have exponential results for a long, longperiod of time and I think this is one of the easiest changes you justtalked about in it when I go out I speak about this topic. Thepromotion prevention is the easiest thing you can do and most people find it's oneof the most valuable things. You can do that tomorrow, right and thenand then just you abe be testing into it. So it's the easiest,fastest way. Don't try to figure out people's motivations, don't try to justdo some of these experiments like that, and I think you can get toa really, really nice place. I want to shift the conversation slightly becausewe've been talking about a lot of like external communication, another area of opportunitythat I see, like with with the work you're doing, marketing to mind. States can practically apply internally culturally for team members, because we have toremember too, there's a lot of uncertainty and ambiguity going on. Am Igoing to have a job? You know, are we going to be here thenext twelve to eighteen months? How can A and we'll just call itthe leadership team, take ownership of some of this communication to come the nerves, reduce the anxiety internally? Yeah, I think you're right. Like youknow, the book is called marketing to mind states, but it's a bookabout human behavior, and so you'll ruin you read it where I talk abouthow I use this to get my Sunday vegetables right. It's a human behaviorbook, but I come from a world of marketing. So if you justlouder the same ideas to internal communications, you're right, you can. Iwill tell you every study. I'm doing it because these are humans studies.We're seeing the same desires. Everybody right now in your organization feels the desireto I just want to know that I'm safe. Like, am I physicallysafe in this work environment? Are they cleaning the environment enough? But alsofinancially, am I? Am I going...

...to be laid off? What kindof severance package am I going to get if I do get laid off?Am I going to have to take a salary dip? Right? So safetyproviding some sense of control, because they don't feel like they're in control,and I would tell you there is safety in environments that you're familiar with andcontrol. So it sounds funny, but just providing a schedule and things thatpeople should do on a day, your employees should do on a daily basis, provides a sense of control. Like that they can control their their environment. So having weekly meetings, maintaining weekly meetings, matters in this point,even if you don't really know what to say. I had one on Fridayand I didn't really know what to say on Friday, but I had it. Why? Because there's consistency and when I feel like my boss is givingyou consistency of a meeting, I feel like there's some control. And thenlast one is release. If you can do anything in your office to allowyou were seeing lots of virtual happy hours between employees right now, since we'reall working remotely. Those things, giving some levity and some smiles helps themfeel better. It about their office and they're going to bring that to theirhome, right because then the home and there's a lot of anxiety to sodo that for your employees so they can bring that energy into their homes andwill all be better off. Man. So much practicality right there, bothinternally and externally. I think of some of the conversations that I've had within the last few weeks. Is like, for example, if you're not usingzoom internally, start using zoom. You and I were facetoface. Wegot on the calls like I feel like I've done you forever and we hada couple of conversations, but this is our first time seeing each other.But there's that human connection. Was that? Ninety three percent of communication is nonauditory. Yeah, it's visual, and so we got a lot goingon right here. So if you're not doing I've wrote an article like whydo this now? The same thing for your account holders, like weekly,like like weekly fireside chats on facebook live, even if you like, you justlike get some questions that are coming in from your call center, applythose, answer them, because you have to communicate courage. Courage, justlike the virus, is contagious. Yeah,...

I love that idea. And evenjust having office hours where you're online and maybe you'll get two people foryour clients show up, or maybe you'll get seventeen or eating. So Ijust heard the story where this guy decided it had went up through a financialservice. As you said, I have twenty clients. I'm just going tosay I'm going to be online on zoom at eleven o'clock and I'm just herefor you. He didn't put in a gender right. Yeah, I saidseventeen out of twenty people got together and they first just kind of these areCEOS and one of them is dealing with you's gonna have to lay off eightypercent of a staff. Yelp, he he just found so much. Sohe gets on the phone called Zoom. They're all zooming. They've never meteach other, but there's this relationship, there's humanness right now, because weall are going through this for the first time. And and he said thatnow they all just want to meet, have open office hours and you don'tdone genda to say I'm here for you. How can we and if I don'tknow the answer, let's just talk about that. We don't know theanswer, but let's go figure something out. And he said it was. Itwas wonderful because there's a human connection that we're all looking for. Ifyou're not making face too bakes connection right now with your employees or your clients, you're behind because we're all doing it now, and that's why video andto your point of release right. Another practical thing that I've made recommendations aroundis, like, like in any clide, it's could work with your clients,Netflix Watch parties. Because one because now like community, we're human beings. We're not meant to live in isolation like we're all being forced to do, which in some projections could be for the next six to twelve, eighteenmonths. We have to figure out ways that we can bring people together fora common purpose, a common enjoyment, common pleasure. So really, reallygood stuff. Thank you. Thank you for for the just all the practicalitythat I think is so relevant right now. Let's look forward. Let's look aheadover the next twelve to eighteen, twenty four months. I'm a financialbrand marketing leader, I'm a selves leader. What can I do, what canI apply now that will help my...

...financial brand help others during this time? Yeah, you know, I'll do my best and I think we're alltrying to, you know, think about what's going to happen in the future. I will look at it from a behavioral psychology perspectives, which is kindof my skill, and the way I'm going to think about my business.So for the next six months, to basically all of two thousand and twentyin my head, I'm going to focus on my ability to provide people afeeling of just we we've talked about all day long today, safety, controland release. Now I may not be able to lean heavily on release becausemy company doesn't do that well. I can't provide people greater control and Icould do things with and I think I think about the things I can dois I can give my clients more options, because options when people can make selectionsand and they have they have different selections, they feel like they're inmore control. So I'm not going to tell my clients here's your one path, I'm going to give them two to three, two two options, likeone path is just a mandate. Two paths is a decision, three arechoices. So I'm going to try to give anything I could do give youoptions, because you get greater control. So that's what I'm going to dofor first twelve months, is basically how can I make my clients feel safer, more in control and give a moments of release? Second thing when I'mthinking about is what's going to happen is we're going to find a new normal. We just all our human behavior. We always right now we're on thetails, right, we're doing things that we're not necessarily rational, and sometimesthose are our benefit and sometimes those are tour detriment, and there's nothing,I think a lot of companies can do right now. People. But here'sa great example. Twitter right now has the highest number of views that they'veever had, like if they're going up forty percent this past week. Yetbrands are pulling advertising away from twitter. That's not rational, right. Theyjust make does make any sense, right? That's where we live in. Sothose are the tails. That's going to happen. I think it isthe random remainder of this year. Then I'm thinking for the next twenty totwenty one, two thousand and twenty one, we're going to start kind of findinga normal a normalcy, and that normalcy is we're not going to goback to the way it was. We're...

...not going back there, guys,there's two of what. Here's one. One of the first things going tohappen, I'll tell you, is that a lot of corporations are going toget used to the idea of saying, you know what, why do weneed these big buildings? Like we were actually okay with working from home,or other companies say, why do we need to travel? Have travel budgets. We can do a Webinar just like this. Why do I have totravel to Seattle? So I think we're never going to get back to thatold thing, but we're going to find normalcy because humans we adapt. Weadapt what we always especially the younger you are, the more likely you areto adapt. And then, I think probably in two thousand and twenty two. Sounds funny, but there will be a point where there will be thenew reality will set in, will renormalize, and what I think what you shoulddo, if you're any kind of business owner, is trying to mapout in this middle when we come back, kind of this middle, you know, next eighteen months, finding little pockets of what we believe the newnormal will be, that it's going to happen twelve months later. Yeah,that's all focused on right now. I'm not focus on how people behaving becauseit's very, very different. So I'm not I'm not encouraging anybody do marketingresearch and that's my job. I think next couple of months not going totouch it. I'm going to wait for some new normalcy and then figure outpockets, because the world is going to change. Two Thousand and twenty twois not going to be the same thing as two thousand and nineteen. Nota chance. Now I'm in a hundred percent agreement. It's actually interesting youmentioned the idea of adaptability, because that's that's actually a measurement that we takewhen working with the financial brand and their marketing team, their cells team.there. What is Your Aq? What's your adaptability quotient to be able tohandle change at an exponential pace? Listen, will anyone who's listening? They wantto get in touch with you. They have more questions, they justwant to say hi. What's the best way for them to do that?Sure, Linkedin is still one of my go to mechanisms get hold of anybody. So it's will leach linkedin. I'll also I post most my videos,most of my content there. I'm also writer for Forbes. You can findme on Forbes and expect. We're coming out with the brand new set ofresources of mind state GROUPCOM in May.

It's not ready now, but that'swhere we're going to start. Housing lots of free content, access to thebook, access to videos, access to courses and things like that, justto provide greater competence in understanding how to apply all this behavioral psychology into anybusiness. That that is a listening out there today. I love it.I love you're going to provide clarity. I'll love you're going to provide focus. All of you going to provide a clear path forward for people in thistime of of chaos. So thank you so much for joining me for thisconversation. Well, it's been a pleasure on this episode of making on digitalgrowth. My pleasure, Pretiia. Until next time, be well, Doogood and wash your hands. Thank you for listening to another episode of bankingon Digital Growth with James Robert Laigh. Like what you hear, tell afriend about the podcast and leave us a review on Itunes, stitcher or spotify, and subscribe while you're there to get even more practical, improven insights thatcan guide you in your financial brand along your digital growth journey. Visit wwwdot digital growthcom to get a preview of James Robert's upcoming book banking on DigitalGrowth, a strategic marketing manifesto to save financial brands. Inside you'll find astrategic blueprint framed around twelve key areas of focus that empower you to confidently generateten times more loans and deposits. Until next time, be well and dogood.

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